Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
I guess the Premier League dont want to involve it because it was a bit of a farce in the FA Cup - You could hear from the Stands as well how much the fans were hating it too so for once they've probably gone by that feedback at the time
Champions League (UEFA) have been very slow with technology - They were late with taking up Goal Line Technology compared to the Premier League as didnt Platini prefer the approach of having those extra useless officials next to the goal
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
I dont know, you better ask them.......but one day they will.
Yeah I am sure they will. I wonder what is stopping them now though... I mean, it works 90% of the time and has no downsides so it's a bit bizarre that it was voted against in both competitions.
Bit illogical ain't it? Perhaps they just don't understand how the system works or somebody has deliberately misrepresented it to them.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
I dont know, you better ask them.......but one day they will.
Yeah I am sure they will. I wonder what is stopping them now though... I mean, it works 90% of the time and has no downsides so it's a bit bizarre that it was voted against in both competitions.
Bit illogical ain't it? Perhaps they just don't understand how the system works or somebody has deliberately misrepresented it to them.
You're talking about British football and the Premier League here, the same association that took ten years to pick up on the free kick spray, that South American football had been using for years.
Also, a very lame effort trying to twist my words with your quote 'I mean, it works 90% of the time and has no downsides'
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
I dont know, you better ask them.......but one day they will.
Yeah I am sure they will. I wonder what is stopping them now though... I mean, it works 90% of the time and has no downsides so it's a bit bizarre that it was voted against in both competitions.
Bit illogical ain't it? Perhaps they just don't understand how the system works or somebody has deliberately misrepresented it to them.
You're argument was going so well then you throw in something you know not to be true, and that nobody has ever claimed, and I'm not sure why other than to try and antagonise?
It's a new technology, and more important, it requires new processes and skills from the officials. Of course it will have problems and downsides. The hope/expectation is that as the system matures the downsides will disappear and the positives will massively outweigh any perceived negatives. Obviously we're not there yet, and the argument from many is still "it's not 100% perfect in every way, so we should scrap it completely". The only way it will improve is through usage, and the higher the level of competition, the faster the improvements will come. You can develop it all you want a lower level, but there will always be challenges that will only truly present themselves when it's top players and top (supposedly) officials, in a high pressure match with a big crowd.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Lot of leaps and mental gymnastics going on here; if it worked properly and had no downsides like is being posited on this thread then they would take it up.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Lot of leaps and mental gymnastics going on here; if it worked properly and had no downsides like is being posited on this thread then they would take it up.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
Again you are arguing against yourself, nobody has said it has no downsides. Why do you keep bringing that up as the opposing point of view unless you can't argue against what is actually being said so have to invent something you can argue against?
I don't know all the reasons why the premier league aren't using it yet. I've posited lots of possibilities above and it's probably a combination of many of them. They probably feel it is 12-18 months away from being ready. They may be right, it really depends on the criteria they use to judge it. FIFA decided they didn't want to wait another 4 years when they feel it's so close now. Again, whether that was the right decision of not is open to each persons perspective.
Personally I feel that it's gone well enough to merit it's inclusion, but I'd have liked to have seen officials (both on-pitch and VAR) better trained, and I'd still like the conversation between ref and VAR to be broadcast (as in rugby and cricket). Both of those changes are easily attainable, just comes down to time to implement.
The premier league may feel they want another year to give them time to fully train everybody, implement improvements identified from this world cup and other leagues/tournaments that have used it, and develop the systems around broadcasting the VAR communications (audio in the stadium, on the TV feeds and accompanying on-screen graphics, etc.) Just because the premier league is being more conservative in their approach than FIFA doesn't make either one right or wrong, which is the position you're pushing.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Lot of leaps and mental gymnastics going on here; if it worked properly and had no downsides like is being posited on this thread then they would take it up.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
Again you are arguing against yourself, nobody has said it has no downsides. Why do you keep bringing that up as the opposing point of view unless you can't argue against what is actually being said so have to invent something you can argue against?
I don't know all the reasons why the premier league aren't using it yet. I've posited lots of possibilities above and it's probably a combination of many of them. They probably feel it is 12-18 months away from being ready. They may be right, it really depends on the criteria they use to judge it. FIFA decided they didn't want to wait another 4 years when they feel it's so close now. Again, whether that was the right decision of not is open to each persons perspective.
Personally I feel that it's gone well enough to merit it's inclusion, but I'd have liked to have seen officials (both on-pitch and VAR) better trained, and I'd still like the conversation between ref and VAR to be broadcast (as in rugby and cricket). Both of those changes are easily attainable, just comes down to time to implement.
The premier league may feel they want another year to give them time to fully train everybody, implement improvements identified from this world cup and other leagues/tournaments that have used it, and develop the systems around broadcasting the VAR communications (audio in the stadium, on the TV feeds and accompanying on-screen graphics, etc.) Just because the premier league is being more conservative in their approach than FIFA doesn't make either one right or wrong, which is the position you're pushing.
Again, my apologies on the no downsides comment, this was mentioned in a rather robust discussion in the pub last night and i have conflated that with the discussion on here - got a bit carried away with myself.
The position i'm pushing is that the premier league and champions league value their competitions too much to risk a technology that is not proven yet and I am disappointed that FIFA don't hold the world cup to the same high standards. This isn't the confed cup (where I did agree with trialling it)
I said before, VAR is an inevitablility that we all have to come to terms with on both sides of the arguement, but I will continue to call out bad decisions and mistakes and hold VAR to a higher standard, as will the entire football world - lets face it, having huge rows with each other over decisions is what football fans do and always have done so I really don't see why there is such indignation/mockery when people do it when it comes to VAR as well.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Lot of leaps and mental gymnastics going on here; if it worked properly and had no downsides like is being posited on this thread then they would take it up.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
Again you are arguing against yourself, nobody has said it has no downsides. Why do you keep bringing that up as the opposing point of view unless you can't argue against what is actually being said so have to invent something you can argue against?
I don't know all the reasons why the premier league aren't using it yet. I've posited lots of possibilities above and it's probably a combination of many of them. They probably feel it is 12-18 months away from being ready. They may be right, it really depends on the criteria they use to judge it. FIFA decided they didn't want to wait another 4 years when they feel it's so close now. Again, whether that was the right decision of not is open to each persons perspective.
Personally I feel that it's gone well enough to merit it's inclusion, but I'd have liked to have seen officials (both on-pitch and VAR) better trained, and I'd still like the conversation between ref and VAR to be broadcast (as in rugby and cricket). Both of those changes are easily attainable, just comes down to time to implement.
The premier league may feel they want another year to give them time to fully train everybody, implement improvements identified from this world cup and other leagues/tournaments that have used it, and develop the systems around broadcasting the VAR communications (audio in the stadium, on the TV feeds and accompanying on-screen graphics, etc.) Just because the premier league is being more conservative in their approach than FIFA doesn't make either one right or wrong, which is the position you're pushing.
Again, my apologies on the no downsides comment, this was mentioned in a rather robust discussion in the pub last night and i have conflated that with the discussion on here - got a bit carried away with myself.
The position i'm pushing is that the premier league and champions league value their competitions too much to risk a technology that is not proven yet and I am disappointed that FIFA don't hold the world cup to the same high standards. This isn't the confed cup (where I did agree with trialling it)
I said before, VAR is an inevitablility that we all have to come to terms with on both sides of the arguement, but I will continue to call out bad decisions and mistakes and hold VAR to a higher standard, as will the entire football world - lets face it, having huge rows with each other over decisions is what football fans do and always have done so I really don't see why there is such indignation/mockery when people do it when it comes to VAR as well.
Fair enough. The only point I'd argue against in all the is the Premier league valuing their competition more. I don't think that's the case. As mentioned above, they took a long long time to bring in the spray that was in common, successful use elsewhere.
I think, to a certain extent, the premier league is actually quite conservative when it comes to making changes. They don't particularly like change and the billions they generate ensures they're not going to be bold if they think there's any possibility of changes effecting audience figures. It's a similar case with champions league, which is often slow to adopt changes and probably for very similar reasons.
FIFA can afford to be bold, the world cup comes around so in-often that they're guaranteed viewing figures, sponsorship deals, etc. VAR could be an unmitigated disaster and it wouldn't effect FIFA's bottom line nor the success of the next world cup in 4 years.
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
You'd have to ask them that one. Maybe they want to wait until it matures before to expense of rolling it out to 20 grounds (in the premiership, lot more than that in the Champions league). You also have far more complicated logistics in a league set-up. The premier league has up to 7 games on the same day, compared to 4 in the world cup, spread across more ground, so the costs of running the system would be 2 to 3 times more than the world cup.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Lot of leaps and mental gymnastics going on here; if it worked properly and had no downsides like is being posited on this thread then they would take it up.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
Again you are arguing against yourself, nobody has said it has no downsides. Why do you keep bringing that up as the opposing point of view unless you can't argue against what is actually being said so have to invent something you can argue against?
I don't know all the reasons why the premier league aren't using it yet. I've posited lots of possibilities above and it's probably a combination of many of them. They probably feel it is 12-18 months away from being ready. They may be right, it really depends on the criteria they use to judge it. FIFA decided they didn't want to wait another 4 years when they feel it's so close now. Again, whether that was the right decision of not is open to each persons perspective.
Personally I feel that it's gone well enough to merit it's inclusion, but I'd have liked to have seen officials (both on-pitch and VAR) better trained, and I'd still like the conversation between ref and VAR to be broadcast (as in rugby and cricket). Both of those changes are easily attainable, just comes down to time to implement.
The premier league may feel they want another year to give them time to fully train everybody, implement improvements identified from this world cup and other leagues/tournaments that have used it, and develop the systems around broadcasting the VAR communications (audio in the stadium, on the TV feeds and accompanying on-screen graphics, etc.) Just because the premier league is being more conservative in their approach than FIFA doesn't make either one right or wrong, which is the position you're pushing.
Again, my apologies on the no downsides comment, this was mentioned in a rather robust discussion in the pub last night and i have conflated that with the discussion on here - got a bit carried away with myself.
The position i'm pushing is that the premier league and champions league value their competitions too much to risk a technology that is not proven yet and I am disappointed that FIFA don't hold the world cup to the same high standards. This isn't the confed cup (where I did agree with trialling it)
I said before, VAR is an inevitablility that we all have to come to terms with on both sides of the arguement, but I will continue to call out bad decisions and mistakes and hold VAR to a higher standard, as will the entire football world - lets face it, having huge rows with each other over decisions is what football fans do and always have done so I really don't see why there is such indignation/mockery when people do it when it comes to VAR as well.
Fair enough. The only point I'd argue against in all the is the Premier league valuing their competition more. I don't think that's the case. As mentioned above, they took a long long time to bring in the spray that was in common, successful use elsewhere.
I think, to a certain extent, the premier league is actually quite conservative when it comes to making changes. They don't particularly like change and the billions they generate ensures they're not going to be bold if they think there's any possibility of changes effecting audience figures. It's a similar case with champions league, which is often slow to adopt changes and probably for very similar reasons.
FIFA can afford to be bold, the world cup comes around so in-often that they're guaranteed viewing figures, sponsorship deals, etc. VAR could be an unmitigated disaster and it wouldn't effect FIFA's bottom line nor the success of the next world cup in 4 years.
I think we have reached a common ground - I don't disagree with what you are saying although I would add that bringing VAR in this early is in my opinion more to do with the arrogance of FIFA than boldness or progressiveness.
The parallels between this and the Brexit thread are amazing. Except, for the most part, the ones who want the status quo maintained in football think that an ill-prepared leap into the dark in politics, with "other people" having to come up with the answers is the way forward with the EU, and the ones who want to stay in the EU are championing a poorly prepared, seismic shift in football with a vague promise that it will mean a brighter tomorrow, while ignoring the concerns they don't actually have an answer for, like "where will it all end"...
At least I am a crumblie on both subjects.
Even if that's consistently wrong, rather than right...
sounds like last nights games were full of contentious decisions, some were given correctly by the officials, some were given incorrectly. It’s just like football as we used to know it...but we have to wait for a few minutes while they sift through a load of replays to make their mind up.....zzzzz
It's madness how you've managed to justify that the pro VAR crowd are like the pro Brexit crowd and anti VAR crowd are the anti Brexit crowd. Sorry if I've been repetitive on here but I feel like banging my head against a wall when I read some of these anti VAR arguments, so many of which are formed of the back of mis information. Sound familiar?
I implore anyone arguing anti VAR to have a watch of how BBC commentators handled goal line technology four years ago.
"Does goal line technology work or doesn't it?" Errrr yes it works!!
If these blokes can't get their head around something as black and white as goal line technology then how do we expect them to be accurately describing the events of VAR to us four years later?
Easy example, @Chippycafc asks "what if VAR is wrong?"
Well it can't be wrong because as explained, VAR doesn't make any decisions.
And I'm sure there's more of such questions without me digging through a multitude of posts.
VAR is a new technology and so needs to be properly explained by those in charge to the casual audience but at the moment, they're making it seem far more confusing than it really is.
It's madness how you've managed to justify that the pro VAR crowd are like the pro Brexit crowd and anti VAR crowd are the anti Brexit crowd. Sorry if I've been repetitive on here but I feel like banging my head against a wall when I read some of these anti VAR arguments, so many of which are formed of the back of mis information. Sound familiar?
I implore anyone arguing anti VAR to have a watch of how BBC commentators handled goal line technology four years ago. "Does goal line technology work or doesn't it?" Errrr yes it works!!
If these blokes can't get their head around something as black and white as goal line technology then how do we expect them to be accurately describing the events of VAR to us four years later?
Easy example, @Chippycafc asks "what if VAR is wrong?"
Well it can't be wrong because as explained, VAR doesn't make any decisions.
And I'm sure there's more of such questions without me digging through a multitude of posts.
VAR is a new technology and so needs to be properly explained by those in charge to the casual audience but at the moment, they're making it seem far more confusing than it really is.
It was tongue in cheek, Callum, apart from the "where will it all end" bit, which is totally valid, no matter how many times the pro VAR crowd dismiss it (the VAR "Irish border question" ). Ross' post on the previous page more or less sums up how I feel.
Must have missed that post. Did he really equate pro VAR with Brexit voters and anti VAR with Remainers? Unless he was joking, I think it is obviously the other way round. The pro VAR people are the ones who take note of evidence and facts and the anti VAR people are the ones who hark back to a mythical bygone age.
Must have missed that post. Did he really equate pro VAR with Brexit voters and anti VAR with Remainers? Unless he was joking, I think it is obviously the other way round. The pro VAR people are the ones who take note of evidence and facts and the anti VAR people are the ones who hark back to a mythical bygone age.
It's only six or seven posts ago Red, you don't have to wear your finger out to find it...
Read my convoluted way of looking at it and you will see what I mean.
Must have missed that post. Did he really equate pro VAR with Brexit voters and anti VAR with Remainers? Unless he was joking, I think it is obviously the other way round. The pro VAR people are the ones who take note of evidence and facts and the anti VAR people are the ones who hark back to a mythical bygone age.
It's only six or seven posts ago Red, you don't have to wear your finger out to find it...
Read my convoluted way of looking at it and you will see what I mean.
And yes - it was 90% joke.
It is a habit I have picked up from browsing the Takeover thread. I keep scrolling to the last few posts when I open a thread these days.
Not wanting to drag up a whole massive debate again, but the video example you are using there is making a point that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny - the confusion was over the fact that there was 2 different goal line checks taking place at the same time and the commentators didn't realise - it would have been far more straightforward if it had been one, and this fact was unpicked by the pundits at the end of the game. Yes I know goal line checks aren't as regular as the use of VAR so you would expect there to be more VAR issues to talk about, but you are making it seem like goal line checks were a source of confusion when it was first implemented but that just simply isn't true is it? It was a one off and not comparable to VAR at all which has had multiple instances of confusion and debate.
Of course if you can show me another example apart from one game where goal line tech was met with the same confusion from the commentators i'll happily withdraw my point.
VAR has to be judged on the totality of decision making because referees are making decisions based on expected video evidence e.g. Nigeria penalty. The VAR team also referred another ludicrous handball decision tonight. It really is a cop out for VAR fans to take credit for all the correct decisions and blame poor refereeing for all the poor ones. Overall the decision making is less consistent than we get every week in the premier league and arguably less consistent than previous world cups. It has been rushed in to solve a problem that mostly didn't exist, overall refereeing at the top level is very good in my opinion. Football is not like other sports, it is fluid, and doesn't lend itself to constant stoppages. For the record i am strong remainer and anti VAR but don't see a link
I wasn’t keen on VAR the initial stuff I saw in the FA Cup(I think) was pony .
Now the fact it is rectifying “some” poor calls by refs is good and stopping “some” of the filthy cheating that has been gotten away with before is also good .
Of course there are decisions which one person/ref would give one way and another person/ ref give the other , there is no magic wand that can make us all agree on those 50-50 decisions but if a ref is given a second opportunity to review one of these it may help a minimal amount get the decision correct.
So of course it’s not perfect but even as an old romantic I like it and if the day ever arrives that it’s being used in Charlton matches I’ll be very pleased because our fans are the most hard done by on earth and it’s always partially the refs fault in losing fixtures !!
For me VAR has introduced more controversy than it has solved.
It has worked much better than I though tit would for "facts" such as offside. (Although I don't see why it is only used for some "first class rules" but not other "unimportant rules " (encroachment - goalie on line at penalties etc).
But when it is adopted in the Premier League, every game will have controversial VAR decisions which will be reshown and debated ad nauseam afterwards. There will still be calls for some sort of infallible (AI?) technology to prevent inconsistent VAR decisions.
Comments
Why don't the Premier league or the Champions league want to introduce/trial it in their competitions yet if it is good enough for the World cup?
Champions League (UEFA) have been very slow with technology - They were late with taking up Goal Line Technology compared to the Premier League as didnt Platini prefer the approach of having those extra useless officials next to the goal
Bit illogical ain't it? Perhaps they just don't understand how the system works or somebody has deliberately misrepresented it to them.
Maybe FIFA feel an international audience and the part-time fans who only follow world cups will be far more receptive than premier league fans who will have a higher percentage of fans likely to be against the system.
Going back to the costs. FIFA aren't paying for it, the hosts are, so it's a one off cost for that tournament. Therefore there is no problem installing that system this year, then a new better system in 4 years times, etc. etc. The premier league will rightly want to avoid the expense of rolling this out across 20 grounds, only to have the technology superseded next year or the year after and have to replace a big chunk of the installed systems.
At the end of the day an annual league is very different to a 4 yearly tournament, both in budgets, logistics and audience, so there are dozens of reasons why the various organisers may feel that what's appropriate for one isn't appropriate for another.
I'd bet that we'll see VAR in the premier league either next year (2019/20), or straight after the next Euros, and that the next Euros will have VAR.
As has been said above, it's possible VAR has come in a tournament too early, we're seeing more teething problems (mostly to do with Referee and VAR officials training I think) that many (most?) would like, but I think FIFA should be applauded. It is a bold move and I think VAR will improve massively as a result.
Also, a very lame effort trying to twist my words with your quote 'I mean, it works 90% of the time and has no downsides'
It's a new technology, and more important, it requires new processes and skills from the officials. Of course it will have problems and downsides. The hope/expectation is that as the system matures the downsides will disappear and the positives will massively outweigh any perceived negatives. Obviously we're not there yet, and the argument from many is still "it's not 100% perfect in every way, so we should scrap it completely". The only way it will improve is through usage, and the higher the level of competition, the faster the improvements will come. You can develop it all you want a lower level, but there will always be challenges that will only truly present themselves when it's top players and top (supposedly) officials, in a high pressure match with a big crowd.
Italy and Germany have and they have the same costs and logistical issues as the premier league, and are less able to afford it in comparison to the premier league and champions league.
I am not anti VAR in the strictest sense of the word, but it grinds my gears when people call my criticisms of it embarrassing, illogical or deliberately misrepresenting the process - VAR SHOULD be held to a higher standard than ordinary reffing and be criticised when it gets things wrong, that isthe only way it will improve.
I don't know all the reasons why the premier league aren't using it yet. I've posited lots of possibilities above and it's probably a combination of many of them. They probably feel it is 12-18 months away from being ready. They may be right, it really depends on the criteria they use to judge it. FIFA decided they didn't want to wait another 4 years when they feel it's so close now. Again, whether that was the right decision of not is open to each persons perspective.
Personally I feel that it's gone well enough to merit it's inclusion, but I'd have liked to have seen officials (both on-pitch and VAR) better trained, and I'd still like the conversation between ref and VAR to be broadcast (as in rugby and cricket). Both of those changes are easily attainable, just comes down to time to implement.
The premier league may feel they want another year to give them time to fully train everybody, implement improvements identified from this world cup and other leagues/tournaments that have used it, and develop the systems around broadcasting the VAR communications (audio in the stadium, on the TV feeds and accompanying on-screen graphics, etc.) Just because the premier league is being more conservative in their approach than FIFA doesn't make either one right or wrong, which is the position you're pushing.
The position i'm pushing is that the premier league and champions league value their competitions too much to risk a technology that is not proven yet and I am disappointed that FIFA don't hold the world cup to the same high standards. This isn't the confed cup (where I did agree with trialling it)
I said before, VAR is an inevitablility that we all have to come to terms with on both sides of the arguement, but I will continue to call out bad decisions and mistakes and hold VAR to a higher standard, as will the entire football world - lets face it, having huge rows with each other over decisions is what football fans do and always have done so I really don't see why there is such indignation/mockery when people do it when it comes to VAR as well.
I think, to a certain extent, the premier league is actually quite conservative when it comes to making changes. They don't particularly like change and the billions they generate ensures they're not going to be bold if they think there's any possibility of changes effecting audience figures. It's a similar case with champions league, which is often slow to adopt changes and probably for very similar reasons.
FIFA can afford to be bold, the world cup comes around so in-often that they're guaranteed viewing figures, sponsorship deals, etc. VAR could be an unmitigated disaster and it wouldn't effect FIFA's bottom line nor the success of the next world cup in 4 years.
At least I am a crumblie on both subjects.
Even if that's consistently wrong, rather than right...
It's madness how you've managed to justify that the pro VAR crowd are like the pro Brexit crowd and anti VAR crowd are the anti Brexit crowd. Sorry if I've been repetitive on here but I feel like banging my head against a wall when I read some of these anti VAR arguments, so many of which are formed of the back of mis information. Sound familiar?
I implore anyone arguing anti VAR to have a watch of how BBC commentators handled goal line technology four years ago.
"Does goal line technology work or doesn't it?" Errrr yes it works!!
If these blokes can't get their head around something as black and white as goal line technology then how do we expect them to be accurately describing the events of VAR to us four years later?
Easy example, @Chippycafc asks "what if VAR is wrong?"
Well it can't be wrong because as explained, VAR doesn't make any decisions.
And I'm sure there's more of such questions without me digging through a multitude of posts.
VAR is a new technology and so needs to be properly explained by those in charge to the casual audience but at the moment, they're making it seem far more confusing than it really is.
Read my convoluted way of looking at it and you will see what I mean.
And yes - it was 90% joke.
Of course if you can show me another example apart from one game where goal line tech was met with the same confusion from the commentators i'll happily withdraw my point.
For the record i am strong remainer and anti VAR but don't see a link
Now the fact it is rectifying “some” poor calls by refs is good and stopping “some” of the filthy cheating that has been gotten away with before is also good .
Of course there are decisions which one person/ref would give one way and another person/ ref give the other , there is no magic wand that can make us all agree on those 50-50 decisions but if a ref is given a second opportunity to review one of these it may help a minimal amount get the decision correct.
So of course it’s not perfect but even as an old romantic I like it and if the day ever arrives that it’s being used in Charlton matches I’ll be very pleased because our fans are the most hard done by on earth and it’s always partially the refs fault in losing fixtures !!
It has worked much better than I though tit would for "facts" such as offside.
(Although I don't see why it is only used for some "first class rules" but not other "unimportant rules " (encroachment - goalie on line at penalties etc).
But when it is adopted in the Premier League, every game will have controversial VAR decisions which will be reshown and debated ad nauseam afterwards. There will still be calls for some sort of infallible (AI?) technology to prevent inconsistent VAR decisions.