The great thing about this election is that,whatever the result,we will be rid of all the 'referendum is advisory only','Parliament is sovereign,(except when overridden by the EU)' anti-democrats who have been moaning since last June. If the Tories win on a pro Brexit agenda we will however I am sure still be listening to the 'working class is too thick to vote','old people are too selfish to vote' anti-democrats. So one step forward only probably.
This is going to be a nightmare for me. For the first time in years I am back on the Eltham electoral roll. Clive Efford is the sitting MP, and he is well known for his excellent constituency work. He has materially helped my family (as recorded here) and is one of the most active pro football fan MPs in the house.I think he is pro Remain, and he is deffo not a Corbynista. Yet a vote for Labour in this election will be taken by Corbyn as a vote for him.
How much chance do the Tories have of grabbing the seat, anyone know?
Although generally seen as a safeish Labour seat in recent times I think the Corbyn 'issue' will seriously hurt CE's chances of re-election.
I'm sympathetic to her, but think she should've probably kept her promise of "not discussing the announcement today". I'm not sure how I'd feel if my MP told me that she'd given up on democracy via election, let alone when it's about arranging an election for a Prime Minister who she's also also referred to as "unelected".
Poor woman needs to put Twitter away and spend the day with her family.
I'm sympathetic to her, but think she should've probably kept her promise of "not discussing the announcement today". I'm not sure how I'd feel if my MP told me that she'd given up on democracy via election, let alone when it's about arranging an election for a Prime Minister who she's also also referred to as "unelected".
Poor woman needs to put Twitter away and spend the day with her family.
and what about the one where she said she weren't gonna be commenting on it today?
Liz McInnesVerified account @LizMcInnesMP 7h7 hours ago More Today I said goodbye to my Mum, who passed away April 7th. I'm not going to comment on the PM's announcement until tomorrow.
Don't know about just this country I think the world's f@cked with social media. Probably in the minority knowadays but I know the day my mum comes to bury me the last thing she'd be doing is arguing on social media
This is going to be a nightmare for me. For the first time in years I am back on the Eltham electoral roll. Clive Efford is the sitting MP, and he is well known for his excellent constituency work. He has materially helped my family (as recorded here) and is one of the most active pro football fan MPs in the house.I think he is pro Remain, and he is deffo not a Corbynista. Yet a vote for Labour in this election will be taken by Corbyn as a vote for him.
How much chance do the Tories have of grabbing the seat, anyone know?
So I'm obviously an outsider on this, and haven't been following things as closely as I otherwise would have in other years, so take this with a grain of salt.
If there is someone who you like, who you agree with, and who does good work, vote for them. This is not an opportunity you get very often. Obviously we have different systems, but it's something that I have only gotten to do a handful of times. And when I've done it, regardless of other factors (and I know this is a case of voting for a stand-alone congresswomen versus a person and party), I've felt good for doing it. It's felt good to say "I voted for them, and they're doing good work." I can't see you really regretting that.
As for Comrade Corbyn, his days are numbered. One seat or one vote will not alter this.
As a businessman with a stake in not having a hard Brexit, I know one party which is definitely not going to represent me! I don't trust Corbyn on Europe or the economy - so what the Liberals say is going to be of great interest to me. They need to position themselves as the party of Europe and try to appeal to both right and left leaning voters. If they can't do it, somebodyelse has to.
This is going to be a nightmare for me. For the first time in years I am back on the Eltham electoral roll. Clive Efford is the sitting MP, and he is well known for his excellent constituency work. He has materially helped my family (as recorded here) and is one of the most active pro football fan MPs in the house.I think he is pro Remain, and he is deffo not a Corbynista. Yet a vote for Labour in this election will be taken by Corbyn as a vote for him.
How much chance do the Tories have of grabbing the seat, anyone know?
You have to hold your nose Prague and vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the Tories out.
Utterly cynical & opportunistic manoeuvre to take advantage of Labour low poll rating, & avoiding the Tory election fraud scandal. That & May aware that she might lose her rosey new leader glow as happened to Gordon Brown. politics in this country is utter horse shit.
@Chizz Please provide sources for each of your claims. And not just links to newspapers, I want proper proof of everything you've put forward please......
Sources, as requested.
- £111.8bn of new spending commitments. These were lies.
We were told by the Leave campaigners that we would have more money to spend on health (£18bn) new schools (£2.9bn) additional primary school places (£461m) more spending on scientific research (£1.15bn) more public support for agriculture (£145m) new roads (£1.52bn) improvements in railways (£560m) expanded regional airports (£53m) deficit reduction (£5bn) lower taxes (£7.9bn) lower business taxes (£735m) more housing (£480m) more spending on pensions (£18.25bn) subsidies to businesses to cope with tariffs (£7.4bn) cuts in VAT (£13.75bn) reversing welfare savings (£4.4bn) reductions in council tax (£17.2bn) paying state aid to the steel inductry (£200m) new submarines (£10.2bn) trade missions (£1.2m) research grants (£1bn) a British DARPA (£296m) and pothole repairs (£53m). That comes to a total of £111.8bn of savings. That we were told would come as a result of voting to leave the EU. That is £2.15bn A WEEK.
Philip Hammond hasn't announced increased spending of £2.15bn a week.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- A fall in net migration as a result of "taking back control of our borders". Brexit has had no effect on our ability to control migration from outside the EU. And since Brexit we still do not have a solution as to how we can control our land border with the EU. These were lies.
We have always had control of migration from outside the EU. Migration from non-EU countries makes up approximately 50% of UK inward migration. We have - and have always had - full, total and complete control of this migration. We could have turned the tap off whenever we wanted. So, on those borders where we do have "control", we choose not to exercise migration reduction. Because we need it. Voting to leave the EU makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the numbers of people migrating to the UK from non-EU countries. None at all.
We do not have a solution to the land border with the EU. @seth plum writes better on this than I do. But even I have grasped the issue. We were told we would "take back control", but we still don't know how, where, when and by what means we would have any level of control over the 499km land border with the EU.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- Staying in the single market ("Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market" Daniel Hannan. "Only a madman woud leave the market", Owen Paterson. "Increasingly the Norwegian option looks the best for the UK" Arron Banks). All lies.
These are quotes from Hannan, Paterson and Banks. They all said we would not leave the Single Market. Theresa May is taking us out of the single market. Take 94 seconds to look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- We were told we couldn't prevent Turkey joining the EU - that was a lie.
The Council of the EU decide unanimously whether any country can join the EU. That means that every country must agree. If one country decides they don't want Turkey to join, Turkey doesn't get to join. We are in the Council of the EU. So we can prevent Turkey joining. (At least while we are still a member).
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- Likewise we were told we could not prevent a European Army - another lie.
Sir Michael Fallon, our Defence Minister, has confirmed that the UK is preventing the setting up of a European Army. Here's what he said last Autumn about whether the EU would create its own army: "That is not going to happen. We are full members of the EU and we will go on resisting any attempt to set up a rival to Nato."
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- We are liable for eurzone bailouts. A lie. The UK will not have to pay the costs of any Eurozone bailout funding provided through the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism. There are more fact about this, here: https://fullfact.org/europe/will-uk-pay-future-eurozone-bailouts/
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- EU law is adopted by unlected buraucrats. Thankfully (although too late) everyone now understands this was a lie.
I hope you've got this point by now.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- EU "health tourism" costs the NHS billions. It doesn't; it's a lie. The NHS budget is around £95bn a year. So-called health tourism costs up to £300m a year. More facts on this here: https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-whats-cost/ So, the claim that "health tourism costs the NHS billions" is mendacious.
- 70% of our laws come from the EU. This is yet another lie. It is not true to say that 70% of our laws come from the EU. Even though it's almost impossible to count (for example: what is a law?) Full Fact have determined it is somewhere between 13% and 65%. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/ The exact amount is impossible to determined, but it is not 70%.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- The EU budget ceiling can rise without our input. Not true - this is a lie.
- "We were told we were only joining a free-trade area. "No-one told us that it was more than that". This is a lie.
http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/we-were-never-hoodwinked/ As you can see, we were told, informed, advised, instructed, notified, apprised and clued up that the free trade arrangement that we joined in the seventies would likely expand and extend to something more significant. So for people to claim "we were never told it would be anything more than a free trade area" is nonsense. We were members from the mid-seventies and had full participiation and inclusion in how it developed from there.
Do you still think you weren't lied to?
I see that you haven't set out the dozen or so reasons that you don't think we were lied to, that I asked for. No hurry. Maybe you're still thinking of one.
But let me ask you this, @Bow_Addick - who are you more cross with: people like me, @Jodaius@Fiiish@PragueAddick (and loads of others) who pointed out that you - and everyone else - were lied to? Or the people that lied to you?
Thanks for the various comments re Clive Efford and Eltham. The dilemma that @ShootersHillGuru and I have highlights the weakness of the FPP voting system. Right now I think I will probably vote for him but do everything I can to make it clear that it's despite Corbyn, and Labour's pathetic stance on Brexit.
@Airman Brown , it's all very well saying Corbyn will be gone in June, but from a distance it seems to me that Labour has been captured by a load of Soshulist Workah muppets whom I last encountered at Portsmouth Polytechnic. I don't like the idea of my vote being used by them to claim a big "Soshulist" mandate exists, when I consider myself to be one of millions of modern centrist voters who rarely feel adequately represented in the UK (but who are spoilt for choice in Germany).
Utterly cynical & opportunistic manoeuvre to take advantage of Labour low poll rating, & avoiding the Tory election fraud scandal. That & May aware that she might lose her rosey new leader glow as happened to Gordon Brown Politics in this country is utter horse shit.
Well, if you like me are fed up with it, now is an opportunity to do something about it. The timing is unfortunate as it was unexpected and has deprived opponents of time to develop a strategy. But it is also an opportunity! If the Tories win, but with a reduced majority, it will be a victory of sorts.
Thanks for the various comments re Clive Efford and Eltham. The dilemma that @ShootersHillGuru and I have highlights the weakness of the FPP voting system. Right now I think I will probably vote for him but do everything I can to make it clear that it's despite Corbyn, and Labour's pathetic stance on Brexit.
@Airman Brown , it's all very well saying Corbyn will be gone in June, but from a distance it seems to me that Labour has been captured by a load of Soshulist Workah muppets whom I last encountered at Portsmouth Polytechnic. I don't like the idea of my vote being used by them to claim a big "Soshulist" mandate exists, when I consider myself to be one of millions of modern centrist voters who rarely feel adequately represented in the UK (but who are spoilt for choice in Germany).
Well, I can only speak as I find and the vast majority of people who I've met who have joined the party since 2015 are not particularly left wing. Of course a number of people who were outside the party under the Blairites have returned and they are the ones who know the ropes and are organised. However, they are losing votes at constituency level. They are not in control in the way you might think.
I would say that in general the new members are more naive than extreme. They thought Corbyn offered something different and better than the stale politics on offer from the other candidates in the 2015 leadership election. I don't think they will queue up to vote for whoever the Corbynistas put up as his replacement - if that person can even get on the ballot paper. Normal service will be resumed, but at the expense of a hard lesson.
Do I think I've been to lied to? Perhaps. Do I think the EU are also a corrupt, lying bunch? Absolutely.
Still, keep venting your spleen on here with your group of merry men, if it'll make you feel better.
Ah yes, "fullfact" - that lovely group who had to battle for 2 years as they were refused charity status, and has a documented bias against right wing media and was run by two Labour peers. (The Telegraph)
French election first round on Sunday. 4 candidates with fairly even polling at the moment, if they end up with a run off between Mélenchon and Le Pen, then the chaos that will cause on the markets and to the EU will massively overshadow Brexit. For a start, I don't think the Euro would survive under either candidate...
Comments
Even when she gets quite a respectful response she's completely out of touch:
If the Tories win on a pro Brexit agenda we will however I am sure still be listening to the 'working class is too thick to vote','old people are too selfish to vote' anti-democrats.
So one step forward only probably.
Although generally seen as a safeish Labour seat in recent times I think the Corbyn 'issue' will seriously hurt CE's chances of re-election.
I'm sympathetic to her, but think she should've probably kept her promise of "not discussing the announcement today". I'm not sure how I'd feel if my MP told me that she'd given up on democracy via election, let alone when it's about arranging an election for a Prime Minister who she's also also referred to as "unelected".
Poor woman needs to put Twitter away and spend the day with her family.
More
Today I said goodbye to my Mum, who passed away April 7th. I'm not going to comment on the PM's announcement until tomorrow.
I mean I'm a left leaning socialist but is this liz mcinnes for real?
Probably in the minority knowadays but I know the day my mum comes to bury me the last thing she'd be doing is arguing on social media
I know it's an early entry, and we're still in the pre-match warm-up... but it's a worldy effort.
If there is someone who you like, who you agree with, and who does good work, vote for them. This is not an opportunity you get very often. Obviously we have different systems, but it's something that I have only gotten to do a handful of times. And when I've done it, regardless of other factors (and I know this is a case of voting for a stand-alone congresswomen versus a person and party), I've felt good for doing it. It's felt good to say "I voted for them, and they're doing good work." I can't see you really regretting that.
As for Comrade Corbyn, his days are numbered. One seat or one vote will not alter this.
- £111.8bn of new spending commitments. These were lies.
We were told by the Leave campaigners that we would have more money to spend on health (£18bn) new schools (£2.9bn) additional primary school places (£461m) more spending on scientific research (£1.15bn) more public support for agriculture (£145m) new roads (£1.52bn) improvements in railways (£560m) expanded regional airports (£53m) deficit reduction (£5bn) lower taxes (£7.9bn) lower business taxes (£735m) more housing (£480m) more spending on pensions (£18.25bn) subsidies to businesses to cope with tariffs (£7.4bn) cuts in VAT (£13.75bn) reversing welfare savings (£4.4bn) reductions in council tax (£17.2bn) paying state aid to the steel inductry (£200m) new submarines (£10.2bn) trade missions (£1.2m) research grants (£1bn) a British DARPA (£296m) and pothole repairs (£53m). That comes to a total of £111.8bn of savings. That we were told would come as a result of voting to leave the EU. That is £2.15bn A WEEK.
Philip Hammond hasn't announced increased spending of £2.15bn a week.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- A fall in net migration as a result of "taking back control of our borders". Brexit has had no effect on our ability to control migration from outside the EU. And since Brexit we still do not have a solution as to how we can control our land border with the EU. These were lies.
We have always had control of migration from outside the EU. Migration from non-EU countries makes up approximately 50% of UK inward migration. We have - and have always had - full, total and complete control of this migration. We could have turned the tap off whenever we wanted. So, on those borders where we do have "control", we choose not to exercise migration reduction. Because we need it. Voting to leave the EU makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the numbers of people migrating to the UK from non-EU countries. None at all.
We do not have a solution to the land border with the EU. @seth plum writes better on this than I do. But even I have grasped the issue. We were told we would "take back control", but we still don't know how, where, when and by what means we would have any level of control over the 499km land border with the EU.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- Staying in the single market ("Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market" Daniel Hannan. "Only a madman woud leave the market", Owen Paterson. "Increasingly the Norwegian option looks the best for the UK" Arron Banks). All lies.
These are quotes from Hannan, Paterson and Banks. They all said we would not leave the Single Market. Theresa May is taking us out of the single market. Take 94 seconds to look at this video.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- We were told we couldn't prevent Turkey joining the EU - that was a lie.
The Council of the EU decide unanimously whether any country can join the EU. That means that every country must agree. If one country decides they don't want Turkey to join, Turkey doesn't get to join. We are in the Council of the EU. So we can prevent Turkey joining. (At least while we are still a member).
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- Likewise we were told we could not prevent a European Army - another lie.
Sir Michael Fallon, our Defence Minister, has confirmed that the UK is preventing the setting up of a European Army. Here's what he said last Autumn about whether the EU would create its own army: "That is not going to happen. We are full members of the EU and we will go on resisting any attempt to set up a rival to Nato."
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- We are liable for eurzone bailouts. A lie.
The UK will not have to pay the costs of any Eurozone bailout funding provided through the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism. There are more fact about this, here: https://fullfact.org/europe/will-uk-pay-future-eurozone-bailouts/
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- EU law is adopted by unlected buraucrats. Thankfully (although too late) everyone now understands this was a lie.
I hope you've got this point by now.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- EU "health tourism" costs the NHS billions. It doesn't; it's a lie.
The NHS budget is around £95bn a year. So-called health tourism costs up to £300m a year. More facts on this here: https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-whats-cost/ So, the claim that "health tourism costs the NHS billions" is mendacious.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- The EU prevents the UK from deporting EU criminals. This is a lie.
Membership of the EU makes it easier to deport EU criminals, not harder. Here's some more facts on this - https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-deporting-eu-immigrants/
- 70% of our laws come from the EU. This is yet another lie.
It is not true to say that 70% of our laws come from the EU. Even though it's almost impossible to count (for example: what is a law?) Full Fact have determined it is somewhere between 13% and 65%. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/ The exact amount is impossible to determined, but it is not 70%.
Do you still think we weren't lied to?
- The EU budget ceiling can rise without our input. Not true - this is a lie.
1. We help set the budget.
2. The budget ceiling is never exceeded.
3. It's typically 1% of EU GDP - which works out as half the spending on defence for Nato members.
Boris Johnson claimed that the UK EU budget contribution could be increased by over £2bn. Wrong. Or, as the Prime Minister said at the time, "reckless, misleading and wrong". More here: http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-06/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-that-boris-johnsons-eu-statistics-are-reckless-misleading-and-wrong/
Do you still think you weren't lied to?
- "We were told we were only joining a free-trade area. "No-one told us that it was more than that". This is a lie.
http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/we-were-never-hoodwinked/ As you can see, we were told, informed, advised, instructed, notified, apprised and clued up that the free trade arrangement that we joined in the seventies would likely expand and extend to something more significant. So for people to claim "we were never told it would be anything more than a free trade area" is nonsense. We were members from the mid-seventies and had full participiation and inclusion in how it developed from there.
Do you still think you weren't lied to?
I see that you haven't set out the dozen or so reasons that you don't think we were lied to, that I asked for. No hurry. Maybe you're still thinking of one.
But let me ask you this, @Bow_Addick - who are you more cross with: people like me, @Jodaius @Fiiish @PragueAddick (and loads of others) who pointed out that you - and everyone else - were lied to? Or the people that lied to you?
@Airman Brown , it's all very well saying Corbyn will be gone in June, but from a distance it seems to me that Labour has been captured by a load of Soshulist Workah muppets whom I last encountered at Portsmouth Polytechnic. I don't like the idea of my vote being used by them to claim a big "Soshulist" mandate exists, when I consider myself to be one of millions of modern centrist voters who rarely feel adequately represented in the UK (but who are spoilt for choice in Germany).
By no means is that information solid or accurate. http://enzaferreri.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/uk-fact-checker-full-fact-not-impartial.html?m=1
Do I think I've been to lied to? Perhaps.
Do I think the EU are also a corrupt, lying bunch? Absolutely.
Still, keep venting your spleen on here with your group of merry men, if it'll make you feel better.
I would say that in general the new members are more naive than extreme. They thought Corbyn offered something different and better than the stale politics on offer from the other candidates in the 2015 leadership election. I don't think they will queue up to vote for whoever the Corbynistas put up as his replacement - if that person can even get on the ballot paper. Normal service will be resumed, but at the expense of a hard lesson.
I'm sure they're a safe bet for the full facts..