Definitely agree that the authorities need to be exact in their investigation. There is a sense in the locals' interviews I have seen that the confusion is adding to the anger though.
Definitely agree that the authorities need to be exact in their investigation. There is a sense in the locals' interviews I have seen that the confusion is adding to the anger though.
The survivors are not being rational if they are angry at not yet having definitive information.
I have seen a tv interview with a fella who had a telephone conversation with all his immediate family while they were trapped in a top floor flat as the fire engulfed them.
It's difficult to imagine how hard that is for him to deal with. The interview ended with him accusing the authorities of not being worried about giving him an answer about what their fate was.
This goes back to lack of support and coordination on the ground. It's an absolute scandal.
All the victims deserve and need support. They will never get over this terrible event but they require help in these initial stages desperately. There is simply no excuse for the lack of action post fire.
Been watching a few of the UK political shows over the weekend and it's absolutely amazing how so many middle-class journalists are suddenly fucking experts in fire prevention - how have they kept these skills hidden for so long?
The bottom line as pointed out by @Addickted is that there are absolutely no simple solutions to this at all, it is beyond laughable when you hear people say things like, "All high rises should have mandatory sprinkler systems in every dwelling," - do people actually know what that would entail?
No doubt there were a lot of things that could and should have been done differently but knee-jerk reactions from people whose expertise extends no further than moral outrage doesn't really help very much at all.
Presuming those numbers @Addickted supplied above are correct then the chances of every apartment building in the country getting sprinklers installed to every dwelling is about as great as Jeremy Corbyn joining the board of Goldman Sachs.
Been watching a few of the UK political shows over the weekend and it's absolutely amazing how so many middle-class journalists are suddenly fucking experts in fire prevention - how have they kept these skills hidden for so long?
The bottom line as pointed out by @Addickted is that there are absolutely no simple solutions to this at all, it is beyond laughable when you hear people say things like, "All high rises should have mandatory sprinkler systems in every dwelling," - do people actually know what that would entail?
No doubt there were a lot of things that could and should have been done differently but knee-jerk reactions from people whose expertise extends no further than moral outrage doesn't really help very much at all.
Presuming those numbers @Addickted supplied above are correct then the chances of every apartment building in the country getting sprinklers installed to every dwelling is about as great as Jeremy Corbyn joining the board of Goldman Sachs.
I haven't seen anything like the interview between Gove and Piers Morgan this morning.
Addicted clearly knows about fire safety but that doesn't mean he undertsands about politics, or that everybody doing his job are as competent as him. If the political will is to fulfill the reccomendations of the coroners inquest in 2013 following the Camberwell fire, it can be done. It is political will and nothing to do with what Addicted says. And those reccomendations were made using expert advice. At least this can be done to those towers considered high risk - that simply requires common sense.
Philip Hammond seemed to me to be suggesting on the Andrew Marr show this morning that the materials used did not meet the British standards. He was quite clear on this. I would imagine that would give the residents grounds to sue the proverbial out of the council. Given what he said though, I am a bit confused that no arrest/s has been made!
The Guardian follows up with Treasury quotes and clarification: this type of cladding is simply NOT compliant with building regs for tower blocks over 18 metres tall.
There will be a criminal investigation as well as the public inquiry.
It is unfortunate that the media and the story are moving 50 times faster than those supposedly responsible for delivery on the ground.
Meanwhile on Peston, it appears that the survivors have been parked in B'nB with a tenner a day.
Kensington & Chelsea have been removed from the loop as they have been so innefective / become toxic.
Just how is this whole thing 'non-political'?! There are causes behind this that people are trying to debate, yes from different perspectives but to try to shut people up because you are uncomfortable about their point or the position you perceive they are coming from, is at best suppressive.
If you say the people died because they are poor it is political and if you say it was nothing to do with that it is equally political. It is only non-political if you urge people not to jump to conclusions. I think there is a lot of evidence which suggests this is going to be political, but we should wait for some more information. Having said that, I don't think it should take too long to get it - there are some simple questions we should have answers to by now. I mean -if the cladding contravened building regs, shouldn't there be some arrests! It can't be too hard to know who was responsible.
It is entirely the goverment's fault, and you know full well. Not only May, but Cameron, Brown and Bliar, but we can go back to Thatcher. I'm not making, or trying to score political points, because in the light of what's happened, that would be a pretty sick thing to do (I couldn't care less if you give me four flags).
The fact is that generations of politicians have given us years of austerity, and behind that there are people who have ridden on the back of that to enrich themselves. The whole country is sick to the bone and, until people like you wake up to that fact, it will get even worse.
I believe (and I'm not going back into all the threads) that you may have some expertise on the subject, but that doesn't deny me, or others, from expressing our opinion; neither does it make you a demi-god in alll that is architecture, and whilst I appreciate from (some) of the comments that you have published on this forum that you have a certain expertise in high rise buildings, and whilst your own personal experiences and goals might be accepted, it doesn't detract from the fact that you can't excuse what's happened and the neglect that the residents have suffered.
Don't try and make a political point by accusing me of having a political point. If you are part of the problem, which you obviously are, then you are as guilty as the rest. Otherwise you woud have resigned from your company long ago and made a public statement. If a few others had done that then perhaps we wouldn't have had this fire. So don't give me loads of horse crap - if you and others were aware of the situation, don't come crying after the horse has bolted. If you weren't aware, don't come on here trying to say 'you knew it all'. Actions speak louder than words.
A lot of people have died (including Muslims who were attacked last night by some nutter) - we need to get to the bottom of that. I don't think your comments help and, above all, there shoud be no party-political (or racial) divide in times like these.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
I respect you as a Fire Safety Officer, but jesus christ this is politics!!!! Can't you see that? I have enormous respect for what you and your colleagues do (especially those that went into that) but WAKE UP!!!! This is politics
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
I think it is perfectly legitimate for people to disagree with some of this. Nobody will know anything near what you do about fire safety, but they will know enough to develop a view. They will also have seen the views of other experts - like the bloke responsible for fire safety on The Shard who blames the government. Your knowledge doesn't give you the right to tell people how they should think. I still can't see how the similarities between this and the Camberwell fire have not been made more of. Many of the lessons should have been learned IMO.
Having said that, we can and should all agree that we should be doing everything we can for the victims. One of the things I sense from them is that they want us to fight for them to ensure this is never repeated.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
Fire safety has failed in this instance - presumably nobody on here knows if it was down to regulations not being fit for purpose or regulations not being followed. Whatever the answer the decisions that were taken will have been political - we need to act quickly to try and prevent it happening again and to help those affected.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
I think what you, and despite your best efforts and what I'm convinced are your best intentions, is that the victims do not want an enquiry that lasts eight years. I appreciate that the forensic teams need to do their work, but you know full well that lawyers for all the guilty parties will come into play and that will delay the process and make it more expensive for the victims to find justice, which they never will: because you know how corporate manslaughter works.
They have had their lives destroyed, they have had £10 to live on, £550 from today (without consultation with the residents' committee); people have been re-housed in care homes or high-rise flats (jeez - you escape with your life and you're re-housed in a high-rise?), the local council has been removed from helping because it is so incompetant.
Please don't come on here spouting some kind of pro-Tory 'it was their own fault mentality' and trying to protect the government you support.
This whole thing makes me want to vomit, and I can't believe the UK has come to this.
Comments
I have seen a tv interview with a fella who had a telephone conversation with all his immediate family while they were trapped in a top floor flat as the fire engulfed them.
It's difficult to imagine how hard that is for him to deal with. The interview ended with him accusing the authorities of not being worried about giving him an answer about what their fate was.
This goes back to lack of support and coordination on the ground. It's an absolute scandal.
All the victims deserve and need support. They will never get over this terrible event but they require help in these initial stages desperately. There is simply no excuse for the lack of action post fire.
The bottom line as pointed out by @Addickted is that there are absolutely no simple solutions to this at all, it is beyond laughable when you hear people say things like, "All high rises should have mandatory sprinkler systems in every dwelling," - do people actually know what that would entail?
No doubt there were a lot of things that could and should have been done differently but knee-jerk reactions from people whose expertise extends no further than moral outrage doesn't really help very much at all.
Presuming those numbers @Addickted supplied above are correct then the chances of every apartment building in the country getting sprinklers installed to every dwelling is about as great as Jeremy Corbyn joining the board of Goldman Sachs.
Addicted clearly knows about fire safety but that doesn't mean he undertsands about politics, or that everybody doing his job are as competent as him. If the political will is to fulfill the reccomendations of the coroners inquest in 2013 following the Camberwell fire, it can be done. It is political will and nothing to do with what Addicted says. And those reccomendations were made using expert advice. At least this can be done to those towers considered high risk - that simply requires common sense.
Not sure on the accuracy of that....
There will be a criminal investigation as well as the public inquiry.
It is unfortunate that the media and the story are moving 50 times faster than those supposedly responsible for delivery on the ground.
Meanwhile on Peston, it appears that the survivors have been parked in B'nB with a tenner a day.
Kensington & Chelsea have been removed from the loop as they have been so innefective / become toxic.
I've just given you four flags for everything you've posted on this subject because every single one of them is political point scoring.
You just hang about any disaster thread in a cheap attempt to make it all the Government's fault and be holier than thou.
And yet you dare to call my remark inappropriate.
Come back when you've found something informative and factual to share.
The fact is that generations of politicians have given us years of austerity, and behind that there are people who have ridden on the back of that to enrich themselves. The whole country is sick to the bone and, until people like you wake up to that fact, it will get even worse.
I believe (and I'm not going back into all the threads) that you may have some expertise on the subject, but that doesn't deny me, or others, from expressing our opinion; neither does it make you a demi-god in alll that is architecture, and whilst I appreciate from (some) of the comments that you have published on this forum that you have a certain expertise in high rise buildings, and whilst your own personal experiences and goals might be accepted, it doesn't detract from the fact that you can't excuse what's happened and the neglect that the residents have suffered.
Don't try and make a political point by accusing me of having a political point. If you are part of the problem, which you obviously are, then you are as guilty as the rest. Otherwise you woud have resigned from your company long ago and made a public statement. If a few others had done that then perhaps we wouldn't have had this fire. So don't give me loads of horse crap - if you and others were aware of the situation, don't come crying after the horse has bolted. If you weren't aware, don't come on here trying to say 'you knew it all'. Actions speak louder than words.
A lot of people have died (including Muslims who were attacked last night by some nutter) - we need to get to the bottom of that. I don't think your comments help and, above all, there shoud be no party-political (or racial) divide in times like these.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
Having said that, we can and should all agree that we should be doing everything we can for the victims. One of the things I sense from them is that they want us to fight for them to ensure this is never repeated.
Stop twisting everything.
I'm sure we all want the same outcome?
They have had their lives destroyed, they have had £10 to live on, £550 from today (without consultation with the residents' committee); people have been re-housed in care homes or high-rise flats (jeez - you escape with your life and you're re-housed in a high-rise?), the local council has been removed from helping because it is so incompetant.
Please don't come on here spouting some kind of pro-Tory 'it was their own fault mentality' and trying to protect the government you support.
This whole thing makes me want to vomit, and I can't believe the UK has come to this.