I made a comparison to hurricane Katrina earlier and I stand by it. What happened then in New Orleans and what happened last week at Grenfell Tower were both horrific tragedies caused by years of negligence, apathy, lip service and cost-cutting.
In both cases the immediate reaction of the leader of the country was to hide. I am ashamed and deeply upset that such events can happen in our supposedly "civilised" society.
No public enquiry, inquest or witch-hunt can bring back the dead nor wipe out the scars suffered by the survivors and the emergency workers.
I've just driven past the building, it really is a depressing sight as all the other buildings around are lit up while there's a single dark rectangle against the night sky
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
I think what you, and despite your best efforts and what I'm convinced are your best intentions, is that the victims do not want an enquiry that lasts eight years. I appreciate that the forensic teams need to do their work, but you know full well that lawyers for all the guilty parties will come into play and that will delay the process and make it more expensive for the victims to find justice, which they never will: because you know how corporate manslaughter works.
They have had their lives destroyed, they have had £10 to live on, £550 from today (without consultation with the residents' committee); people have been re-housed in care homes or high-rise flats (jeez - you escape with your life and you're re-housed in a high-rise?), the local council has been removed from helping because it is so incompetant.
Please don't come on here spouting some kind of pro-Tory 'it was their own fault mentality' and trying to protect the government you support.
This whole thing makes me want to vomit, and I can't believe the UK has come to this.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm a little unclear what further evidence you need? A relatively safe concrete building has been refurbished with some dodgy cladding that has caused a fire that firefighters have never had to deal with before and over seventy people have died and numerous people are homeless.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
Well actually I do need an expert.
Was it down to May? Was it down to K&c? Was it down to rydon? Was it down to a sub contractor for installing badly? Was it down to building regs officer who signed it off? Was it down to the fire officer who signed off the RA? Was it down to Cameron who allowed the review of building regs to be sat on for years? Was it down to Osbourne for giving us austerity?
All of these reasons have been put forward.
You have an amazing Crystal ball if you KNOW the facts of the cause.
What we do know is that post fire, K&C council went awol as did the Government/May. They both deserve a shit storm of anger for leaving the poor victims to volunteer workers and donations. I raised this issue on this thread, I was told that I don't understand how local authorities work! I do know shit management when I see it so blatantly demonstrated.
I have said on other threads that I am not a Tory and have never voted for them. I am sure that we are all appalled at what has gone on at Grenfell Tower and all hope that this will be the catalyst to ensure residents will be far safer in years to come. The only way we can ensure that is to correctly identify the cause/s and come up with workable solutions going forward.
There is every chance that some people at the heart of the rescue already have a good idea of where some of the evidence is pointing. I'm sure they don't have the complete picture and certainly nobody would who relies on news and social media.
It appears to be down to the cladding - the building had a passive fire safety system in place which would have worked prior to the cladding being installed. Buildings don't normally spread fire on the outside or is this something you see as normal?
I don't understand why you are taking it upon yourself to defend the indefensible? Somebody is f***ing culpable even if nobody ever gets prosecuted. I don't have the complete picture but I've heard numerous 'experts' point the finger at the cladding which effectively rendered the building unsafe.
Why don't you watch tonight's episode of Panorama? We relied on 'experts' to refurbish the building and to come up with fire regulations that are fit for purpose - 70+ deaths and numerous homeless would I politely suggest they've failed in this instance. Why have regulations not changed since the Southwark fire in 2009?
I don't think fire safety is taken seriously because it costs money.
What have I defended? Who am I trying to protect from justice?
I have taped panorama so not yet watched it btw. I don't believe for a moment that the problem was just the cladding. If it was we still need to fully understand why it was the problem.
Read your last comments back to yourself You are largely supporting my argument.
You make points about the cladding being a major, if not the most important cause of death. I don't disagree, I have never said that I do. Your simplification is wrong though.
Why were there no sprinklers? Did every flat have fire doors? Why were unprotected gas pipes running along the 'protected' route? Why was this allowed, did it contribute to problems? Who selected the insulation, was it K&C or Rydon or their subby? Was it fitted correctly, if not why not? I understand that each floor should still have had a break in the cladding to prevent the chimney effect (not certain of that). Where the fire breaks between floors, removed during refurb, replaced. If not, why?
Simply saying it was caused by lack of funds doesn't get to the route cause and won't make people safer going forward. The bastards taking too much out already will just pocket more unless they are forced to make changes to practice.
Until we know all the reasons for the deaths we cannot possibly make the right changes to ensure the safest possible future.
The current building regulations should have been reviewed following the Southwark fire - this hasn't been done so this is neglect on behalf of the government. If building materials and techniques change and the regulations aren't kept up to date then unsurprisingly you will hit problems.
If the cladding hadn't been on the building the fire wouldn't have spread so rapidly - the fire services weren't equipped properly to fight the fire and the safety advice given to the residents in the event of fire was rendered useless.
This loss of life is down to a shoddy refurbishment- somebody is culpable. The 'right' changes weren't made after the previous fire in Southwark so how many people need to die before the government and local councils take fire safety seriously?
If I was the head of K&C council or a member of the government I wouldn't be so fucking complacent after so many have died.
We have a culture of petty cost cutting in government - both main parties are guilty. Is there a will amongst our political elite to change? The Southwark fire took place in 2009 and I'm unclear what's changed since?
The fact we don't yet know for certain whether the cladding complied with building regulations despite there being part of the building with the outside undamaged is beyond incredible. I have seen the letters on the news this morning warning of a disaster like this from the commons fire safety committee. What is going on here?
In response to the Coroners Inquiry after Lakanal House, Eric Pickles said the Building Regulations would be reviewed with a new edition of ADB being published in 2016/17.
It would be much better if certain people stood up and were open about their part in this disaster. We all know nobody wanted this to happen - but what has happened since the fire a week ago has been a whole new scandal in itself. I watched a report on a couple of the kids who died last night and I felt both moved and shamed by it.
Most major incidents like this fire will have mostly been caused by a combination of failures. One contribution might be windows being open, due to the hot weather. For the sake of those living in high rise flats, I hope the inquiry comes out quickly,so changes can be put in place asap.
Most major incidents like this fire will have mostly been caused by a combination of failures. One contribution might be windows being open, due to the hot weather. For the sake of those living in high rise flats, I hope the inquiry comes out quickly,so changes can be put in place asap.
There are things that should come out now - did cladding meet safety standards or not? It is ridiculous even ministers don't seem to know this a week later!!!! People living in tower blocks need to know what type of cladding is in their buildings - these delays are unforgivable.
There will be at this moment an awful lot of people in government, both local and national. Industry and regulatory bodies covering their tracks and shifting blame and generally obfuscating the situation.
The chances of these poor victims having the answers and recourse they want any time soon are nil.
In another month this outrage will begin to subside in the collective consciousness of the nation and at that point the lawyers and obsfuscators will rise to promenance.
It's disgusting and Bexley Council have been doing that to its residence for years. Take a home in Manchester or don't take one at all. That includes women and children that have been abused and had to leave their homes.
It's disgusting and Bexley Council have been doing that to its residence for years. Take a home in Manchester or don't take one at all. That includes women and children that have been abused and had to leave their homes.
Didn't think Bexley had any council housing anymore.
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
The truly insane thing about this map are the blue dots showing homes that have been empty for 4,200 – 5,734 days. That’s homes that have lain empty for between 11 and 15 years. About 50 of them.
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
It's disgusting and Bexley Council have been doing that to its residence for years. Take a home in Manchester or don't take one at all. That includes women and children that have been abused and had to leave their homes.
It's disgusting and Bexley Council have been doing that to its residence for years. Take a home in Manchester or don't take one at all. That includes women and children that have been abused and had to leave their homes.
Didn't think Bexley had any council housing anymore.
Bexley transferred all their housing to L&Q and Orbit years ago, though my late dad and his neighbours always referred to them as "the council" when they were dealing with L&Q.
Regardless of whether they own any housing, all councils have a duty to rehouse the homeless on their patch - hence the use of B&Bs and the like. Bexley will still probably get to pick who lives in their old homes as well, not L&Q. The economics of it is such that they will do anything to discharge their duty because as you can imagine the cost of B&Bs are enormous and anyone presenting as homeless who doesn't have both a watertight case and the ability to stand up to them will soon be on their way.
I suspect in K&C's case it is just the normal response of whoever is working there, i.e. they would say this to anyone, and the failing is no one in their management telling them to be a bit more sensitive than usual. To be fair, all councils do this, some are just a lot more enthusiastic about telling people they are "intentionally homeless".
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
These are the houses of wealthy people .....
No excuses
The money launderers buying property and leaving it empty would be furious.
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
These are the houses of wealthy people .....
No excuses
Are you saying the blue dots are not council houses?
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
These are the houses of wealthy people .....
No excuses
The money launderers buying property and leaving it empty would be furious.
That's a little harsh to say they are all money launderers! I remember reading a few years back (might have been the times rich list) that most of the empty (and non empty!) properties in Kensington & Chelsea were owned by the Cadogans? (No, not the Kardashians!) and have been since they were built. The council/government should speak to them as I suspect they could easily house every single displaced person stemming from the fire. Or better still team up with the Duke of Westminster who probably owns the majority of those that the Cadogans don't.
Theres no excuse not to house these people quickly, even if such housing is of a temporary nature (Hotel/B&B etc) as you would expect in an emergency situation, the council should be ashamed if they haven't.
The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
These are the houses of wealthy people .....
No excuses
The money launderers buying property and leaving it empty would be furious.
That's a little harsh to say they are all money launderers! I remember reading a few years back (might have been the times rich list) that most of the empty (and non empty!) properties in Kensington & Chelsea were owned by the Cadogans? (No, not the Kardashians!) and have been since they were built. The council/government should speak to them as I suspect they could easily house every single displaced person stemming from the fire. Or better still team up with the Duke of Westminster who probably owns the majority of those that the Cadogans don't.
Theres no excuse not to house these people quickly, even if such housing is of a temporary nature (Hotel/B&B etc) as you would expect in an emergency situation, the council should be ashamed if they haven't.
I was exaggerating to make a point about the inflow of dodgy cash....
Comments
In both cases the immediate reaction of the leader of the country was to hide. I am ashamed and deeply upset that such events can happen in our supposedly "civilised" society.
No public enquiry, inquest or witch-hunt can bring back the dead nor wipe out the scars suffered by the survivors and the emergency workers.
If the cladding hadn't been on the building the fire wouldn't have spread so rapidly - the fire services weren't equipped properly to fight the fire and the safety advice given to the residents in the event of fire was rendered useless.
This loss of life is down to a shoddy refurbishment- somebody is culpable. The 'right' changes weren't made after the previous fire in Southwark so how many people need to die before the government and local councils take fire safety seriously?
If I was the head of K&C council or a member of the government I wouldn't be so fucking complacent after so many have died.
We have a culture of petty cost cutting in government - both main parties are guilty. Is there a will amongst our political elite to change? The Southwark fire took place in 2009 and I'm unclear what's changed since?
Waiting.......
For the sake of those living in high rise flats, I hope the inquiry comes out quickly,so changes can be put in place asap.
The chances of these poor victims having the answers and recourse they want any time soon are nil.
In another month this outrage will begin to subside in the collective consciousness of the nation and at that point the lawyers and obsfuscators will rise to promenance.
Our Head Office!
It's utterly unbelievable and shameful.
Hopefully it's not true....
If K&C had any balls, everybody dispersed as a result of the fire would be housed by Wednesday at the latest. No excuses.
The truly insane thing about this map are the blue dots showing homes that have been empty for 4,200 – 5,734 days. That’s homes that have lain empty for between 11 and 15 years. About 50 of them.
Regardless of whether they own any housing, all councils have a duty to rehouse the homeless on their patch - hence the use of B&Bs and the like. Bexley will still probably get to pick who lives in their old homes as well, not L&Q. The economics of it is such that they will do anything to discharge their duty because as you can imagine the cost of B&Bs are enormous and anyone presenting as homeless who doesn't have both a watertight case and the ability to stand up to them will soon be on their way.
I suspect in K&C's case it is just the normal response of whoever is working there, i.e. they would say this to anyone, and the failing is no one in their management telling them to be a bit more sensitive than usual. To be fair, all councils do this, some are just a lot more enthusiastic about telling people they are "intentionally homeless".
Theres no excuse not to house these people quickly, even if such housing is of a temporary nature (Hotel/B&B etc) as you would expect in an emergency situation, the council should be ashamed if they haven't.