You will forgive me if I just bow to the expert knowledge on this thread.
My experience is limited and long out of date. My duties as a Staff Assoc. Rep. in the 80's included H&S. It was a regulatory minefield. I expect Grenfell Tower failings to involve any number of factors across central & local government, their agencies, the fire authorities, the related regulations, construction & material certification regulations, practices, oversight & due diligence.
I fear I recall too many normally sane office managers failing to pay attention to even basic fire protection. I worked in "sit tight & wait" fire rescue solution premises. Prevailing structural requirements required the premises integrity to hold for a 1hr minimum. It was unsettling but was London building standard practice and proven effective if the correct fire doors and control procedures were in place.
Having long moved on I am very surprised to learn due to 1986 legislative changes there was no longer any specified time limit applicable to structural materials' fire retardant properties. "Sit tight & wait" relies on such properties.
I cannot believe a) over 30yrs under ALL political administrations those in construction & fire prevention have not challenged for & achieved the reintroduction of such a basic standard b) legislation would not identify the placement of any additional materials on the outside of any building as potentially compromising any internal fire protection systems.
If, as it seems, "sub grade" cladding has caused this tragedy who even makes such a product?
I have long been a political agnostic. Grenfell Tower goes way beyond government & local politicians and their staff who are easy & lazy targets. They do not operate in a vacuum. They are our representatives. We elect them and the people who employ them. We empower by the choice of our vote and the level of resourcing which we are prepared to pay. They reflect our values. This happened on OUR watch. We truly appear to be aware of the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Grenfell Tower carries the hallmarks of an accident waiting to happen. Someone, somewhere potentially across multiple channels has got something horribly wrong. Kensington & Chelsea executive leadership clearly either lack the appetite or ability to function in a crisis. How many of us can relate to every challenge identified by Addicted?
In the 70's I learned from seniors, who knew their "business coal face", empowered to do their job. In the 80s' it was my turn. Come the 90's my job was consumed explaining the business to executives, one PA proclaiming "you expect him to know what you are talking about, that's not his job!". By 2008 not one high street bank board executive had the relevant qualifications or experience. In 00's I worked with MBA armed Texas based executives (who breached industry practice & contract law at will), less able to run a business than a former customer who ran 3 London newsagents.
We have just had the most vacuous mistake ridden election in memory entrusting political leaders to run our lives largely based on no more than a few media sound bites, TV shows, and a 140bytes of instant data. It is not enough and now we get to scream at the TV and computer screen in anguish.
By what insanity do we empower those with no practical knowledge to run our industries, businesses & services, indeed our lives in very large part to the detriment of those that have?
Some are gifted enough to assimilate & resolve any & every problem but they are few & far between. I too can wave my piece of paper but it must no longer be the bypass to real industry knowledge, expertise and experience. I tire of hearing we will "learn from this". That is not enough. Lives have been lost.
I respect and (if OK with the socialist left) share the emotions. Innocent people have died horribly, been injured and suffered a life changing event but this tragedy could be decades in the making.
So with respect to the mounting number of fire, administrative, property, disaster recovery armchair experts can we now please restrain the knee jerk finger pointing. There truly are times to keep your own counsel. I endorse the right to protest within the law but garnering empty statements solves nothing and there is too much noise already in the public domain.
I respect people are in shock and legitimately confused but this is too important for a sound bite media fest The issue is not about salving everyone's anger no matter how justified it may feel. It is too important to exploit for scoring "unproven" political points. What specimen of humanity seeks party political capital over the bodies of corpses before they are even in the ground?
Too often it is the people who have the least value to add who shout the loudest.
We need to continue to respect & support those who have suffered (few I doubt will be standing at the doors of any council building) and applaud those who have rushed to support their fellow human beings.
Muttleys' plea of reassurance for those in comparable accommodation is right but just how do you propose to genuinely ease their fears overnight. Just how does any official now know precisely what materials were actually used on any given building? Proper testing & analysis will take weeks.
People in authority have jobs to do to ensure those in need are supported today and over the coming weeks, months & years. Let them do their job. They must deal in facts. Facts which today must emanate from those putting their lives at risks in dealing with unprecedented scenes in an unstable building. I recognise the pain of those desperate for news but the authorities cannot speculate on information they do not have.
The self important, largely subject matter ignorant twittering classes need to just get out of their way. No one yet has the full picture of the full scale of devastation, the ultimate consequences nor indeed the scale of due recompense to these poor people.
If & when the support reasonably fails you have just cause for condemnation. The link to Katrina is typical of the hyperbole. Today it stands no scrutiny. The US government failure stretched over 18 months (thousands relocated to Texas) and in part exists even today.
This tragedy seems to reflect the administrative competence of some 3rd world countries but our governance, independent judiciary and due legal process including Inquiries & Inquests do not. All terms of reference, judgements and decisions are open to public scrutiny and can be revisited. The appointment to lead the Inquiry will be crucial and require evaluation.
This is a major, complex incident covering a range of issues with likely far reaching (even criminal) consequences for individuals, corporations, local & national governance. There can be no missed step. All before we consider the broader influences on local communities and our society in general.
We are not watching some perverse episode of a TV soap.
Investigation will take time. There will be a sliding scale of priorities & scope. If some problems were decades in the making, and unlike many, I do not know, then they could take decades to put right.
Providing those directly affected are fully supported and kept fully informed of all developments in securing justice for their loss then this is not about some lynch mob witch hunt. It is about getting it right for the future protection of all. Rushing to judgement and precipitously lashing out no matter how human it may feel is gratuitously self serving.
The deep sadness, horror & outrage are genuine for all of us. It is not a competition.
To those who so horribly perished in Grenfell Tower may you have truly found and rest in peace and your loved ones somehow find a way to come to terms with such tragic loss.
Because it's completely uncalled for, you're twisting everything into something its not.
In my opinion.
How, and what do you mean by, 'it's something it's not'?
I'll leave it for others to decide.
My opinion is that this fire, and other disasters (floods, for example), are due to massive cuts and privatisation and a massive neglect for our environement and our infustructure. I could cite the figures here, but no doubt you could come up with others.
I have no political point to make, but I find it offensive when someone comes on here purporting to defend a system which clearly doesn't work, especially on the back of some kind of robotic response from the Tories.
People go from living through a nightmare to losing their homes; they're placed in B&Bs from her to Manchester (not Best Westerns, but simple B&Bs), and a fire safety officer comes on to spout Tory/Blaireite policy - sorry, no!
Because it's completely uncalled for, you're twisting everything into something its not.
In my opinion.
How, and what do you mean by, 'it's something it's not'?
I'll leave it for others to decide.
My opinion is that this fire, and other disasters (floods, for example), are due to massive cuts and privatisation and a massive neglect for our environement and our infustructure. I could cite the figures here, but no doubt you could come up with others.
I have no political point to make, but I find it offensive when someone comes on here purporting to defend a system which clearly doesn't work, especially on the back of some kind of robotic response from the Tories.
People go from living through a nightmare to losing their homes; they're placed in B&Bs from her to Manchester (not Best Westerns, but simple B&Bs), and a fire safety officer comes on to spout Tory/Blaireite policy - sorry, no!
Watching the One Show, reporting that the fire in the flat from the fridge was put out and the crew were leaving the building. They then seen the outside on fire, this is the first time I've heard this.
What you fail to realise is that I'm a Fire Safety Manager, not the Home Secretary.
As far as I'm concerned at this stage of the investigation politics should not be involved in this. We should be doing everything we can for those that survived or have been closely affected this disaster.
This incident is unique. It's unheard of and has never been seen by anybody before. Look at the ferocity of the fire and compare in with those at the twin towers, where it was fed by hundreds of gallons of kerosene.
Politics and tough decisions need to be made when all the facts as to how the fire started, how it spread so rapidly, why did the compartmentation not work and why do we still have expensive fire engines driving around the Country which cannot deal with a fire higher than six storeys.
I respect you as a Fire Safety Officer, but jesus christ this is politics!!!! Can't you see that? I have enormous respect for what you and your colleagues do (especially those that went into that) but WAKE UP!!!! This is politics
In the words of Skin "everything is fucking political ". Some on here and political agitators latching on to this tragedy ( i am not saying Lifers are agitators btw) making it party political.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
Nearly a week later and they can't work out if the cladding is banned in the UK or not. He didn't even answer the question about numerous previous warnings.
A little way down this page, there's video recorded by a group of firefighters on their way to the scene: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357 While I don't expect firefighters to be unshockable, as they've generally seen worse than most of us, but they seem absolutely gobsmacked at what they're about to face.
I am absolutely disgusted by the leader of K&C council - he is a man without shame.
A building has been turned into a deathtrap by a shoddy refurbishment, 78+ people died, a pathetic relief effort launched and yet this smug c*** can sit there as if nothing has happened. I assume he's in line for a knighthood for leading the way in cost cutting and building up reserves of £274m.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm a little unclear what further evidence you need? A relatively safe concrete building has been refurbished with some dodgy cladding that has caused a fire that firefighters have never had to deal with before and over seventy people have died and numerous people are homeless.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm a little unclear what further evidence you need? A relatively safe concrete building has been refurbished with some dodgy cladding that has caused a fire that firefighters have never had to deal with before and over seventy people have died and numerous people are homeless.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
Well actually I do need an expert.
Was it down to May? Was it down to K&c? Was it down to rydon? Was it down to a sub contractor for installing badly? Was it down to building regs officer who signed it off? Was it down to the fire officer who signed off the RA? Was it down to Cameron who allowed the review of building regs to be sat on for years? Was it down to Osbourne for giving us austerity?
All of these reasons have been put forward.
You have an amazing Crystal ball if you KNOW the facts of the cause.
What we do know is that post fire, K&C council went awol as did the Government/May. They both deserve a shit storm of anger for leaving the poor victims to volunteer workers and donations. I raised this issue on this thread, I was told that I don't understand how local authorities work! I do know shit management when I see it so blatantly demonstrated.
I have said on other threads that I am not a Tory and have never voted for them. I am sure that we are all appalled at what has gone on at Grenfell Tower and all hope that this will be the catalyst to ensure residents will be far safer in years to come. The only way we can ensure that is to correctly identify the cause/s and come up with workable solutions going forward.
There is every chance that some people at the heart of the rescue already have a good idea of where some of the evidence is pointing. I'm sure they don't have the complete picture and certainly nobody would who relies on news and social media.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm a little unclear what further evidence you need? A relatively safe concrete building has been refurbished with some dodgy cladding that has caused a fire that firefighters have never had to deal with before and over seventy people have died and numerous people are homeless.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
Well actually I do need an expert.
Was it down to May? Was it down to K&c? Was it down to rydon? Was it down to a sub contractor for installing badly? Was it down to building regs officer who signed it off? Was it down to the fire officer who signed off the RA? Was it down to Cameron who allowed the review of building regs to be sat on for years? Was it down to Osbourne for giving us austerity?
All of these reasons have been put forward.
You have an amazing Crystal ball if you KNOW the facts of the cause.
What we do know is that post fire, K&C council went awol as did the Government/May. They both deserve a shit storm of anger for leaving the poor victims to volunteer workers and donations. I raised this issue on this thread, I was told that I don't understand how local authorities work! I do know shit management when I see it so blatantly demonstrated.
I have said on other threads that I am not a Tory and have never voted for them. I am sure that we are all appalled at what has gone on at Grenfell Tower and all hope that this will be the catalyst to ensure residents will be far safer in years to come. The only way we can ensure that is to correctly identify the cause/s and come up with workable solutions going forward.
There is every chance that some people at the heart of the rescue already have a good idea of where some of the evidence is pointing. I'm sure they don't have the complete picture and certainly nobody would who relies on news and social media.
It appears to be down to the cladding - the building had a passive fire safety system in place which would have worked prior to the cladding being installed. Buildings don't normally spread fire on the outside or is this something you see as normal?
I don't understand why you are taking it upon yourself to defend the indefensible? Somebody is f***ing culpable even if nobody ever gets prosecuted. I don't have the complete picture but I've heard numerous 'experts' point the finger at the cladding which effectively rendered the building unsafe.
Why don't you watch tonight's episode of Panorama? We relied on 'experts' to refurbish the building and to come up with fire regulations that are fit for purpose - 70+ deaths and numerous homeless would I politely suggest they've failed in this instance. Why have regulations not changed since the Southwark fire in 2009?
I don't think fire safety is taken seriously because it costs money.
I don't think it's party political. But the Royal Boro' of K&C need to take a long hard look at how their council has behaved. It's been shockingly bad and uncaring. This is not because they are tory but because they became inhuman in their response to people on the margins. As have some Labour people over the last few decades.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
That's my point.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm a little unclear what further evidence you need? A relatively safe concrete building has been refurbished with some dodgy cladding that has caused a fire that firefighters have never had to deal with before and over seventy people have died and numerous people are homeless.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
Well actually I do need an expert.
Was it down to May? Was it down to K&c? Was it down to rydon? Was it down to a sub contractor for installing badly? Was it down to building regs officer who signed it off? Was it down to the fire officer who signed off the RA? Was it down to Cameron who allowed the review of building regs to be sat on for years? Was it down to Osbourne for giving us austerity?
All of these reasons have been put forward.
You have an amazing Crystal ball if you KNOW the facts of the cause.
What we do know is that post fire, K&C council went awol as did the Government/May. They both deserve a shit storm of anger for leaving the poor victims to volunteer workers and donations. I raised this issue on this thread, I was told that I don't understand how local authorities work! I do know shit management when I see it so blatantly demonstrated.
I have said on other threads that I am not a Tory and have never voted for them. I am sure that we are all appalled at what has gone on at Grenfell Tower and all hope that this will be the catalyst to ensure residents will be far safer in years to come. The only way we can ensure that is to correctly identify the cause/s and come up with workable solutions going forward.
There is every chance that some people at the heart of the rescue already have a good idea of where some of the evidence is pointing. I'm sure they don't have the complete picture and certainly nobody would who relies on news and social media.
It appears to be down to the cladding - the building had a passive fire safety system in place which would have worked prior to the cladding being installed. Buildings don't normally spread fire on the outside or is this something you see as normal?
I don't understand why you are taking it upon yourself to defend the indefensible? Somebody is f***ing culpable even if nobody ever gets prosecuted. I don't have the complete picture but I've heard numerous 'experts' point the finger at the cladding which effectively rendered the building unsafe.
Why don't you watch tonight's episode of Panorama? We relied on 'experts' to refurbish the building and to come up with fire regulations that are fit for purpose - 70+ deaths and numerous homeless would I politely suggest they've failed in this instance. Why have regulations not changed since the Southwark fire in 2009?
I don't think fire safety is taken seriously because it costs money.
What have I defended? Who am I trying to protect from justice?
I have taped panorama so not yet watched it btw. I don't believe for a moment that the problem was just the cladding. If it was we still need to fully understand why it was the problem.
Read your last comments back to yourself You are largely supporting my argument.
You make points about the cladding being a major, if not the most important cause of death. I don't disagree, I have never said that I do. Your simplification is wrong though.
Why were there no sprinklers? Did every flat have fire doors? Why were unprotected gas pipes running along the 'protected' route? Why was this allowed, did it contribute to problems? Who selected the insulation, was it K&C or Rydon or their subby? Was it fitted correctly, if not why not? I understand that each floor should still have had a break in the cladding to prevent the chimney effect (not certain of that). Where the fire breaks between floors, removed during refurb, replaced. If not, why?
Simply saying it was caused by lack of funds doesn't get to the route cause and won't make people safer going forward. The bastards taking too much out already will just pocket more unless they are forced to make changes to practice.
Until we know all the reasons for the deaths we cannot possibly make the right changes to ensure the safest possible future.
Comments
In my opinion.
and you've asked him he should resign. why?
My experience is limited and long out of date. My duties as a Staff Assoc. Rep. in the 80's included H&S. It was a regulatory minefield. I expect Grenfell Tower failings to involve any number of factors across central & local government, their agencies, the fire authorities, the related regulations, construction & material certification regulations, practices, oversight & due diligence.
I fear I recall too many normally sane office managers failing to pay attention to even basic fire protection. I worked in "sit tight & wait" fire rescue solution premises. Prevailing structural requirements required the premises integrity to hold for a 1hr minimum. It was unsettling but was London building standard practice and proven effective if the correct fire doors and control procedures were in place.
Having long moved on I am very surprised to learn due to 1986 legislative changes there was no longer any specified time limit applicable to structural materials' fire retardant properties. "Sit tight & wait" relies on such properties.
I cannot believe a) over 30yrs under ALL political administrations those in construction & fire prevention have not challenged for & achieved the reintroduction of such a basic standard b) legislation would not identify the placement of any additional materials on the outside of any building as potentially compromising any internal fire protection systems.
If, as it seems, "sub grade" cladding has caused this tragedy who even makes such a product?
I have long been a political agnostic. Grenfell Tower goes way beyond government & local politicians and their staff who are easy & lazy targets. They do not operate in a vacuum. They are our representatives. We elect them and the people who employ them. We empower by the choice of our vote and the level of resourcing which we are prepared to pay. They reflect our values. This happened on OUR watch. We truly appear to be aware of the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Grenfell Tower carries the hallmarks of an accident waiting to happen. Someone, somewhere potentially across multiple channels has got something horribly wrong. Kensington & Chelsea executive leadership clearly either lack the appetite or ability to function in a crisis. How many of us can relate to every challenge identified by Addicted?
In the 70's I learned from seniors, who knew their "business coal face", empowered to do their job. In the 80s' it was my turn. Come the 90's my job was consumed explaining the business to executives, one PA proclaiming "you expect him to know what you are talking about, that's not his job!". By 2008 not one high street bank board executive had the relevant qualifications or experience. In 00's I worked with MBA armed Texas based executives (who breached industry practice & contract law at will), less able to run a business than a former customer who ran 3 London newsagents.
We have just had the most vacuous mistake ridden election in memory entrusting political leaders to run our lives largely based on no more than a few media sound bites, TV shows, and a 140bytes of instant data. It is not enough and now we get to scream at the TV and computer screen in anguish.
By what insanity do we empower those with no practical knowledge to run our industries, businesses & services, indeed our lives in very large part to the detriment of those that have?
Some are gifted enough to assimilate & resolve any & every problem but they are few & far between. I too can wave my piece of paper but it must no longer be the bypass to real industry knowledge, expertise and experience. I tire of hearing we will "learn from this". That is not enough. Lives have been lost.
I respect and (if OK with the socialist left) share the emotions. Innocent people have died horribly, been injured and suffered a life changing event but this tragedy could be decades in the making.
So with respect to the mounting number of fire, administrative, property, disaster recovery armchair experts can we now please restrain the knee jerk finger pointing. There truly are times to keep your own counsel. I endorse the right to protest within the law but garnering empty statements solves nothing and there is too much noise already in the public domain.
I respect people are in shock and legitimately confused but this is too important for a sound bite media fest The issue is not about salving everyone's anger no matter how justified it may feel. It is too important to exploit for scoring "unproven" political points. What specimen of humanity seeks party political capital over the bodies of corpses before they are even in the ground?
Too often it is the people who have the least value to add who shout the loudest.
We need to continue to respect & support those who have suffered (few I doubt will be standing at the doors of any council building) and applaud those who have rushed to support their fellow human beings.
Muttleys' plea of reassurance for those in comparable accommodation is right but just how do you propose to genuinely ease their fears overnight. Just how does any official now know precisely what materials were actually used on any given building? Proper testing & analysis will take weeks.
People in authority have jobs to do to ensure those in need are supported today and over the coming weeks, months & years. Let them do their job. They must deal in facts. Facts which today must emanate from those putting their lives at risks in dealing with unprecedented scenes in an unstable building. I recognise the pain of those desperate for news but the authorities cannot speculate on information they do not have.
The self important, largely subject matter ignorant twittering classes need to just get out of their way. No one yet has the full picture of the full scale of devastation, the ultimate consequences nor indeed the scale of due recompense to these poor people.
If & when the support reasonably fails you have just cause for condemnation. The link to Katrina is typical of the hyperbole. Today it stands no scrutiny. The US government failure stretched over 18 months (thousands relocated to Texas) and in part exists even today.
This tragedy seems to reflect the administrative competence of some 3rd world countries but our governance, independent judiciary and due legal process including Inquiries & Inquests do not. All terms of reference, judgements and decisions are open to public scrutiny and can be revisited. The appointment to lead the Inquiry will be crucial and require evaluation.
This is a major, complex incident covering a range of issues with likely far reaching (even criminal) consequences for individuals, corporations, local & national governance. There can be no missed step. All before we consider the broader influences on local communities and our society in general.
We are not watching some perverse episode of a TV soap.
Investigation will take time. There will be a sliding scale of priorities & scope. If some problems were decades in the making, and unlike many, I do not know, then they could take decades to put right.
Providing those directly affected are fully supported and kept fully informed of all developments in securing justice for their loss then this is not about some lynch mob witch hunt. It is about getting it right for the future protection of all. Rushing to judgement and precipitously lashing out no matter how human it may feel is gratuitously self serving.
The deep sadness, horror & outrage are genuine for all of us. It is not a competition.
To those who so horribly perished in Grenfell Tower may you have truly found and rest in peace and your loved ones somehow find a way to come to terms with such tragic loss.
Grapevine 49
I'll leave it for others to decide.
My opinion is that this fire, and other disasters (floods, for example), are due to massive cuts and privatisation and a massive neglect for our environement and our infustructure. I could cite the figures here, but no doubt you could come up with others.
I have no political point to make, but I find it offensive when someone comes on here purporting to defend a system which clearly doesn't work, especially on the back of some kind of robotic response from the Tories.
People go from living through a nightmare to losing their homes; they're placed in B&Bs from her to Manchester (not Best Westerns, but simple B&Bs), and a fire safety officer comes on to spout Tory/Blaireite policy - sorry, no!
A curry at the Crossbars with a photo taken with Flaggy.
The bloke is a sandwich short of a picnic.
I just hope some people are listening to what you have to say.
I spent over an hour today with a tenant who is extremely concerned about fire safety. Hopefully she felt ok when she left me. (Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and any issues have been actioned.)
This will be a live issue for residents and staff involved in social housing for a long time I think. And hope because fire safety has been the cinderella for too long with lip service paid to it by most. Except the fire safety officers and firefighters.
To a safer future.
He didn't even answer the question about numerous previous warnings.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357
While I don't expect firefighters to be unshockable, as they've generally seen worse than most of us, but they seem absolutely gobsmacked at what they're about to face.
A building has been turned into a deathtrap by a shoddy refurbishment, 78+ people died, a pathetic relief effort launched and yet this smug c*** can sit there as if nothing has happened. I assume he's in line for a knighthood for leading the way in cost cutting and building up reserves of £274m.
To slag them off for being shit is spot on. To slag the Tories off because of policies that have, so far, no proved link is indeed party political and this event should be beyond cheap shots.
If or when the evidence points to specific failures then I will be right in there with the best of you shouting for heads to role and manslaughter charges to be brought if appropriate.
I'm no expert but I'd hazard a guess that there has been a failure. Do you need an expert to state the bleeding obvious?
K&C sits on reserves of £270m+ which I'm assuming don't come out of thin air. Their pitiful reaction to the fire is shameful.
If you'd been affected by the fire I imagine you might be a little angry.
Councils are culpable for this fire and the one in Southwark in 2009. People deserve better.
Whether anyone is prosecuted remains to be seen - there is a lot of arse covering going on.
Was it down to May? Was it down to K&c? Was it down to rydon? Was it down to a sub contractor for installing badly? Was it down to building regs officer who signed it off? Was it down to the fire officer who signed off the RA? Was it down to Cameron who allowed the review of building regs to be sat on for years? Was it down to Osbourne for giving us austerity?
All of these reasons have been put forward.
You have an amazing Crystal ball if you KNOW the facts of the cause.
What we do know is that post fire, K&C council went awol as did the Government/May. They both deserve a shit storm of anger for leaving the poor victims to volunteer workers and donations. I raised this issue on this thread, I was told that I don't understand how local authorities work! I do know shit management when I see it so blatantly demonstrated.
I have said on other threads that I am not a Tory and have never voted for them. I am sure that we are all appalled at what has gone on at Grenfell Tower and all hope that this will be the catalyst to ensure residents will be far safer in years to come. The only way we can ensure that is to correctly identify the cause/s and come up with workable solutions going forward.
There is every chance that some people at the heart of the rescue already have a good idea of where some of the evidence is pointing. I'm sure they don't have the complete picture and certainly nobody would who relies on news and social media.
I don't understand why you are taking it upon yourself to defend the indefensible? Somebody is f***ing culpable even if nobody ever gets prosecuted. I don't have the complete picture but I've heard numerous 'experts' point the finger at the cladding which effectively rendered the building unsafe.
Why don't you watch tonight's episode of Panorama? We relied on 'experts' to refurbish the building and to come up with fire regulations that are fit for purpose - 70+ deaths and numerous homeless would I politely suggest they've failed in this instance.
Why have regulations not changed since the Southwark fire in 2009?
I don't think fire safety is taken seriously because it costs money.
I have taped panorama so not yet watched it btw. I don't believe for a moment that the problem was just the cladding. If it was we still need to fully understand why it was the problem.
Read your last comments back to yourself You are largely supporting my argument.
You make points about the cladding being a major, if not the most important cause of death. I don't disagree, I have never said that I do. Your simplification is wrong though.
Why were there no sprinklers? Did every flat have fire doors? Why were unprotected gas pipes running along the 'protected' route? Why was this allowed, did it contribute to problems? Who selected the insulation, was it K&C or Rydon or their subby? Was it fitted correctly, if not why not? I understand that each floor should still have had a break in the cladding to prevent the chimney effect (not certain of that). Where the fire breaks between floors, removed during refurb, replaced. If not, why?
Simply saying it was caused by lack of funds doesn't get to the route cause and won't make people safer going forward. The bastards taking too much out already will just pocket more unless they are forced to make changes to practice.
Until we know all the reasons for the deaths we cannot possibly make the right changes to ensure the safest possible future.