I admit it I was fully aware of all the implications of remaining in the EU for the remainder of my lifetime.
I counter balanced that with an assessment of the vast range of possible outcomes on leaving.
Then I thought bugger I forgot about Ireland (and Gibraltar for that matter).
I then I thought about cheeses and thought EU cheeses are inferior so I voted leave.
I carry out the same detailed analysis at every General Election too substituting biscuits for cheese.
Would suggest that French cheese in general is on its own better than anything the UK produces other than Chedder or Stilton. Do we produce anything other than chedder and Stilton that isn’t an interpretation of French or Italian cheese ?
I really can't understand why you keep banging on that us leave voters got it wtong & we need to apologise. Applogise for what exactly ?? we had a referendum & there were only 2 possible outcomes. If, according to your logic, one outcome was so bad then why were we given the choice to vote ?? Surely you ire should be aimed at David Cameron, The Civil Service and any other buggers responsible.
I was simply asked to attend a polling station & put a X in 1 of 2 boxes. What happens after that I have no power over.
I have already said publicly on here that TM & her Government have no idea what they are doing & I'm expecting that the end result will either be a no deal or another referendum......which I would probably vote to stay as to leave is patently no possible.
From all your posts I'm assuming your a Labour supporter. If so I'm looking forward to the next few years so I can blame you for every policy decision that ends up in tears ( as it inevitably will) once Corbyn gets into power.
So you got it wrong then ?
Reposting this to fix SHG's buggered quoting, just in case.
Tactically Article 50 should have been triggered when we were ready to trigger it and if the EU were getting annoyed at the uncertainty and delay, it would have improved our hand. It would have also given us time to work out the sort of Brexit we wanted but like everything in this sorry episode, logic and strategy went out of the window!
I said at the time, and still believe, that the EU27 wouldn't have accepted that, they'd have claimed, with some reason, that the UK was not complying with "European values" and would have moved towards Article 7 sanctions.
Only if the UK had stated a fixed start date (in the near future) for the Article 50 process might there have been EU27 acceptance.
An open-ended process of internal negotiations before Article 50 would never have been acceptable.
Sorry fella but bollocks. The UK referendum legally was a non-binding vote. A50 was the 1st trigger to leave.
I respectfully disagree, much though I might wish you were correct. I disagree with the vote, and everything that has happened since, including the "policy" followed by the "Opposition".
The particular non-binding vote, in the context of the UK politics in 2016, could not be ignored by either of the two main parties.
The UK Government and Opposition had committed to an outcome, and both have since reiterated that they will accept the referendum result as binding - until that changes, the referendum is effectively binding - though the outworkings of the result are not.
Whilst the last two years has proved that the UK, and its political leaders, have little understanding of the EU27, it has also shown that this is not reciprocal. The EU27 could not have allowed the UK wait forever to put up or shut up; and would have used all of the weapons in their armoury to get the UK to take a settled and public position.
Sorry NI but 'committed' is not the same as passing legislation in parliament enshrining the referendum vote in law. Which they did not do, unless I missed it. No expert on EU law but doubt they could pursue A7 b4 we triggered A50.
If the EU as a whole considers a member state to be acting contrary to shared European values, which is what the UK hanging around waiting to make up its mind about Article 50 would be (as the uncertainty would stymie much essential EU business), then the Article 7 process becomes inevitable.
Article 7 is separate and relates to any circumstance where a member state is considered to be acting improperly, against the interests of the EU and its member states as a whole.
Unlike the current Polish Government's actions against senior judges, the kind of approach suggested, of waiting until the Government finally knew what it wanted, particularly given the upcoming EU Parliamentary elections and the next round of budgetary negotiations, would have had serious negative consequences across the EU and required firm and fast action. (Not that I am downplaying the importance of the Polish situation, but it has limited impact by comparison).
Of course the UK Government could have emulated the PiS and sought to get into bed with Victor Orban, but the cost of that may have been even less alluring than having to have a sleepover with Arlene last week, to say nothing if the price that would have to be paid.
So, it is possible that the UK could have avoided the final, naughty step, Article 7 sanction, but much of the process could have been applied (and I gave my doubts that a deal with Orban would have been possible in any event).
As an aside, I shudder to think what such a tactic, from the UK, would do to the chances of goodwill in the negotiations; without it, even a basic FTA would be horrendously difficult to achieve.
I see Michel Barnier has already said the "Chequers white paper" is a non-starter. EU wont agree to collecting our tarrifs & taxes and that the "not single market but still trying to be together" thingy wont work either. Best get your cabinet back to Chequers Mrs May for a re-think......
but Raab thinks its all still good & the EU are just joshing with us.....they're good chaps really & will see sense in the end...
It was never going to be acceptable. Why would/should the EU change their rules for a nation that has decided to leave the union.
Call me an old cynic but my view is that May and co always knew it wouldn't be acceptable and they are just preparing the ground to divert blame to the 27. The Daily Mail will go for it.
As I said a bit ago I think we are heading for a hard brexit but called something else. Sort of like BINO but the opposite, HABBAN is what i suggest HArd Brexit By Another Name.
I fear you are correct.
I've just sent the missus to the shops to buy all the non-perishable food she can get hold of.
Mine has gone for ammo, tents, veg seeds and growing tunnels. Hopefully the weather will be good enough for us to grow peppers and aubergines.
Don't worry mate, we will send you regular food parcels from Prague, and you can always pop out here when you are hungry. I'll pull the strings for your visa.
I see Michel Barnier has already said the "Chequers white paper" is a non-starter. EU wont agree to collecting our tarrifs & taxes and that the "not single market but still trying to be together" thingy wont work either. Best get your cabinet back to Chequers Mrs May for a re-think......
but Raab thinks its all still good & the EU are just joshing with us.....they're good chaps really & will see sense in the end...
It was never going to be acceptable. Why would/should the EU change their rules for a nation that has decided to leave the union.
Call me an old cynic but my view is that May and co always knew it wouldn't be acceptable and they are just preparing the ground to divert blame to the 27. The Daily Mail will go for it.
As I said a bit ago I think we are heading for a hard brexit but called something else. Sort of like BINO but the opposite, HABBAN is what i suggest HArd Brexit By Another Name.
I fear you are correct.
I've just sent the missus to the shops to buy all the non-perishable food she can get hold of.
Mine has gone for ammo, tents, veg seeds and growing tunnels. Hopefully the weather will be good enough for us to grow peppers and aubergines.
Don't worry mate, we will send you regular food parcels from Prague, and you can always pop out here when you are hungry. I'll pull the strings for your visa.
I see Michel Barnier has already said the "Chequers white paper" is a non-starter. EU wont agree to collecting our tarrifs & taxes and that the "not single market but still trying to be together" thingy wont work either. Best get your cabinet back to Chequers Mrs May for a re-think......
but Raab thinks its all still good & the EU are just joshing with us.....they're good chaps really & will see sense in the end...
It was never going to be acceptable. Why would/should the EU change their rules for a nation that has decided to leave the union.
Call me an old cynic but my view is that May and co always knew it wouldn't be acceptable and they are just preparing the ground to divert blame to the 27. The Daily Mail will go for it.
As I said a bit ago I think we are heading for a hard brexit but called something else. Sort of like BINO but the opposite, HABBAN is what i suggest HArd Brexit By Another Name.
I fear you are correct.
I've just sent the missus to the shops to buy all the non-perishable food she can get hold of.
Mine has gone for ammo, tents, veg seeds and growing tunnels. Hopefully the weather will be good enough for us to grow peppers and aubergines.
Don't worry mate, we will send you regular food parcels from Prague, and you can always pop out here when you are hungry. I'll pull the strings for your visa.
Can it include some Pilsner Urquell?
Sure, but you will be liable for the duty.
Seriously, get yourself to one of the places offering PU "from the tank", before next March. There's no way they will continue to bring it in by train after a No Deal Brexit.
I see Michel Barnier has already said the "Chequers white paper" is a non-starter. EU wont agree to collecting our tarrifs & taxes and that the "not single market but still trying to be together" thingy wont work either. Best get your cabinet back to Chequers Mrs May for a re-think......
but Raab thinks its all still good & the EU are just joshing with us.....they're good chaps really & will see sense in the end...
It was never going to be acceptable. Why would/should the EU change their rules for a nation that has decided to leave the union.
Call me an old cynic but my view is that May and co always knew it wouldn't be acceptable and they are just preparing the ground to divert blame to the 27. The Daily Mail will go for it.
As I said a bit ago I think we are heading for a hard brexit but called something else. Sort of like BINO but the opposite, HABBAN is what i suggest HArd Brexit By Another Name.
I fear you are correct.
I've just sent the missus to the shops to buy all the non-perishable food she can get hold of.
Mine has gone for ammo, tents, veg seeds and growing tunnels. Hopefully the weather will be good enough for us to grow peppers and aubergines.
Don't worry mate, we will send you regular food parcels from Prague, and you can always pop out here when you are hungry. I'll pull the strings for your visa.
You know who your friends are when times get tough.
I admit it I was fully aware of all the implications of remaining in the EU for the remainder of my lifetime.
I counter balanced that with an assessment of the vast range of possible outcomes on leaving.
Then I thought bugger I forgot about Ireland (and Gibraltar for that matter).
I then I thought about cheeses and thought EU cheeses are inferior so I voted leave.
I carry out the same detailed analysis at every General Election too substituting biscuits for cheese.
Would suggest that French cheese in general is on its own better than anything the UK produces other than Chedder or Stilton. Do we produce anything other than chedder and Stilton that isn’t an interpretation of French or Italian cheese ?
Red Leicester? British cheese is the best, unfortunately all our dairy farmers will be out of business in a couple of years so you’d better put it on your “stockpile this stuff” list.
Great article from the brilliant Gary Younge discussing the sense of victimhood that many Leavers love to wallow in, and which also feeds Trump supporters in the US.
It’s never their fault: why the Brexiteers love to cry betrayal
I do hope that if it does go tits up people would have the humility to accept that they backed the wrong horse and hold their hands up. I still hear (not on here) a lot of people whinging and bitching that the reason it's all gone wrong is down to the government. Whilst I fully agree the government have made a complete pigs ear of it, it shouldn't take away from people accepting responsibility for their choices. For example, can people who voted out say they truly took the time to go through all the facts and determine whether or not that they/the nation would be materially better off being out? I accept a lot of what has come out in the wash may have been unforeseen at the time, but then you could argue why vote out when you don't know what the consequences will be (good or bad).
I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, and I will put in writing now that should this turn out to be a good thing and in however many years from now we are better off out, thank you for all those that did vote out, you chose to do the right thing.
I've just got a feeling there will be a lot passing the buck if does go wrong and we'll hear 'oh but they never gave us all the facts', 'oh the government ruined it for us' 'they should've done it this way' etc etc.
Be an interesting few months
I don't think there will ever be progress on all this until a massive shed load of brexit voters admit they made a massive mistake, and acknowledge it as publically and widely as possible. However nobody likes to admit they got it wrong
I really can't understand why you keep banging on that us leave voters got it wtong & we need to apologise. Applogise for what exactly ?? we had a referendum & there were only 2 possible outcomes. If, according to your logic, one outcome was so bad then why were we given the choice to vote ?? Surely you ire should be aimed at David Cameron, The Civil Service and any other buggers responsible.
I was simply asked to attend a polling station & put a X in 1 of 2 boxes. What happens after that I have no power over.
I have already said publicly on here that TM & her Government have no idea what they are doing & I'm expecting that the end result will either be a no deal or another referendum......which I would probably vote to stay as to leave is patently no possible.
From all your posts I'm assuming your a Labour supporter. If so I'm looking forward to the next few years so I can blame you for every policy decision that ends up in tears ( as it inevitably will) once Corbyn gets into power.
Where have I said apologise? And what I bang on about is the Irish border. I have also consistently said you won get on with it, I have also consistently said no second referendum. Whether I vote Labour or Lord Buckethead is of little importance, they can be voted out after five years, your brexit is forever. You fit the pattern of looking for someone to blame or dig out instead of coming up with the solutions for getting the UK into this position. My post in effect is challenging brexit voters to take the first step and acknowledge they didn't know what they were voting for, did you? Once that first step is taken we might have a chance of removing this brexit fatberg from the sewer of British politics. Little chance of a U-turn by brexit voters at the moment though, they are loving this nightmare judging by a poster like Chippy.
Sorry......you simply added to a post that @cabbles posted that said "they should hold their hands up" and I read that meaning leave voters should aplogise. I now realise you didn't say this.
Didn’t mean apologise golfie, just meant admit it was the wrong decision. And as mentioned I’m not applying this to everyone, and equally I would quite happily say if it turns out to be for the good of the country and leaving works out, then everyone who did vote to leave got it right, I would say fair play, they made the right decision.
What I’m sensing among some that did vote to leave is a lack of responsibility if it does go badly. As above it’s all ‘not being given all the facts’, it’s Theresa May’s fault.
You are correct in that you were asked to put an X on a ballot paper and whatever happens after that is out of your control, and I don’t share Seth’s mantra that brexit voters should own it, but I do find it amazing that some people I’ve spoken to seem to think the whole thing hasn’t worked out because we’ve not taken the right approach to negotiation or whatever
Perhaps it was never going to work?
You are right it is a mantra I have, and the reason is because of the repeated assertions that brexit voters knew what they were voting for. Indeed this fits in to my (recent) theme, that until brexit voters, in enough numbers, start to say they didn't know what they were doing, then we won't move on, and no amount of peoples vote will change things. It is a very tough thing to do, to say you were wrong, so maybe realisation will only come about if brexiters are pressed on the detail and they stop shifting responsibility elsewhere. So yes, I believe that all the time brexit voters say they knew what they were doing, then in my view they should own it.
Thing is Seth. If you ask leavers what they actually wanted out of brexit you will get a different answer each time and in the majority of cases they either don’t actually know or voted for something nothing to do with our Eu membership.
I agree with you, but we are now at the point where reality bites. perhaps those who voted against immigration will have to face the gaps created in our services, those who voted for border control can sit in the traffic jams, those who voted for free trade with the rest of the world can do those deals whilst paying the WTO tariffs as they currently exist, and so on...security, human rights, scientific co-operation, British nationals in the EU, this is the stuff of reality biting. So whatever the myriad reasons that caused people to vote brexit, whatever their main driver was, you can be sure there is a tailor made f*ck up in this process just for them. I have also called on brexiters to tell us the good bits, so they don't have to concentrate on digging any of us remainers out, they have an opportunity to paint a picture of the sunny uplands. In Rees Moggs's case that picture will be scifi for fifty years hence.
And, of course, when the reality of changing whatever little bit of the EU they voted for/against was pointed out to them, they all cried "scaremongering". And when it was pointed out to them that the thing they had a problem with was actually entirely down to decisions made by the UK government, they all put their fingers in their ears and turned away. They own it alright, lock, stock and rusting, leaking barrel... *
It turns out that in fact there are still are a few U.K. politicians with intelligence courage and principles. Delighted to learn that my MP Clive Efford is one of them.
This is about more than Brexit. It should concern you, regardless of where you stand on that.
We probably hadn't seen all the Facebook targeted ads used by the criminal Brexit campaigns. This thread gives a take on how the targeting was done. 45% of Vote Leave's Facebook ads focused on immigration
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
One of the first steps in addiction in order to make a change is to admit you have a problem, that you want to change and that you will accept help. People who voted brexit are a long way away from that scenario, how many would acknowledge they were influenced, or they didn't know what they were doing, they regret it and want to change? Nowhere near enough to make a difference. Until brexiters see the impact of what they have done, and realize that they are the only people who can repair the damage we are stuck in this nightmare. In the event of no solution or way out I would think that it will take stuff like the shortages and restrictions and costs to follow that brexiters will need to face before they even begin to reflect on the damage they have done.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
I'll be amazed if anyone admits to it. It's the same with all advertising, no-one ever admits to be influenced by it, but if you think about it for more than a nano second you'll know that millions of people must be. Think of the fantastic amount of money that it must have taken to fund ITV for sixty years. That money has all come from purposeful advertising, not from corporate philanthropy. They spend money because it works for them. Think about the correlation between The Sun's editorial position and general election results; that isn't accidental, it's causal - but still every Sun reader will tell you that they make their own mind up. Yes they did, but on a limited spectra of drip fed information and misinformation that they choose to publish. Information that seems highly credible because it is reinforced by friends, neighbours, colleagues, barbers, taxi drivers and pub landlords who have all been drip fed the same old, same old. People are encouraged, influenced and cajoled all the time by the messages placed in front of them by others more powerful; sometimes they are completely duped. The only duping going on now though will be people duping themselves into believing that they weren't duped in June 2016, that they knew what Brexit really meant and what its consequences were. It's amazing how we have gotten into such a complete and utter mess when everyone that voted will tell you how they'd made their own mind up and that they understood the issues. Democracy, my arse!
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
@Stig Your post above is bang on the money as usual. I can only add that the phenomenon is now global, fuelled by the fact that English is the global language.
As an example, last Friday my mate Vincent and I were joined in the pub by another neighbour for the first time. He is very intelligent, and successful in business, albeit there are people who say he is very close to a reclusive energy oligarch. Anyway, since he'd had a few by the time we joined him from the match at Dukla, he (not me) started talking politics. What unfolded was a right wing, increasing "alt.right" viewpoint, which is OK. That's not my point. What alarmed me was the topics he ran through, which were clearly an Anglo-American perspective he had derived from..somewhere. It went : "Trump..OK he is an idiot at times, but he talks some sense..I used to trust the BBC but I don't trust any of the MSM any more...look at what's happening in the UK...Sadiq Khan allowed the protests against Trump to go ahead, but not the one in support of Tommy Robinson..." So there you had it. An educated Czech businessman equates a football hooligan from Luton, and his deranged world view, with that of the President of the USA, as if they are equally important global figures. Of course I pointed that out, as well as the fact that "Sadiq Khan" did not and could not give such orders, but his eyes glazed over. He wasn't listening. This phenomenon is all across Europe. People get on to Breitbart News or something and think they've discovered the "truth". Intelligent people, friends, Czechs and Bulgarians, think that "Tommy Robinson" is some kind of freedom fighter. FFS.
I found this interesting map, it doesn't offer any conclusions for why but shows that almost all EU countries felt more positive about the EU vote after the Brexit vote.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
I think an aspect of the debate that isn't highlighted often enough is that Brexiteers break down into two factions:
The (I suspect) majority who think that immigrants are the cause of their economic problems and want a return to a mythical 'good old days' where Britain is isolated from foreign influence, the only cheese is Cheddar and everyone 'buys British'. It's a protectionist world view, and a dumb one.
Then there are the free traders who think the EU puts up too many trade barriers with the rest of the world and we need to get out so that we can have fewer barriers with the US, China etc. and improve trade accordingly. This faction doesn't want to keep people out in principle (free trade involves free movement of labour too, if your labour is what you have to trade) and it wants to allow foreign goods in if they are cheaper/better than British ones.
There is an idealogical contradiction between these factions that I think will eventually become apparent. To give a very specific example, when we are free to make a trade agreement with the USA, it will likely have to include opening our borders to chlorinated chickens (the financial tariffs on trade with the US are already negligible so there is nothing to be gained renegotiating those). That will decimate our own poultry industry and the rural demographic that voted leave will, I think, be up in arms.
I have some sympathy with free-trade leavers, and might have voted leave if I thought their aspirations were politically achievable. I don't think they are however and I think remainers should be focussing more on this aspect of the debate, and the inherant tensions it creates in the Brexit camp, rather than attacking the racism implicit in the views of the protectionist Brexiteers.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
By any measure you can name me it’s a fact that anyone who voted to leave is complicit in harming the economy and future of this country. That’s the opinion of every credible economist on a worldwide and business basis and includes our own government. Even the loony Jacob Rees-Mogg freely admits that any upturn after Brexit might not be felt for fifty years.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
I'll be amazed if anyone admits to it. It's the same with all advertising, no-one ever admits to be influenced by it, but if you think about it for more than a nano second you'll know that millions of people must be. Think of the fantastic amount of money that it must have taken to fund ITV for sixty years. That money has all come from purposeful advertising, not from corporate philanthropy. They spend money because it works for them. Think about the correlation between The Sun's editorial position and general election results; that isn't accidental, it's causal - but still every Sun reader will tell you that they make their own mind up. Yes they did, but on a limited spectra of drip fed information and misinformation that they choose to publish. Information that seems highly credible because it is reinforced by friends, neighbours, colleagues, barbers, taxi drivers and pub landlords who have all been drip fed the same old, same old. People are encouraged, influenced and cajoled all the time by the messages placed in front of them by others more powerful; sometimes they are completely duped. The only duping going on now though will be people duping themselves into believing that they weren't duped in June 2016, that they knew what Brexit really meant and what its consequences were. It's amazing how we have gotten into such a complete and utter mess when everyone that voted will tell you how they'd made their own mind up and that they understood the issues. Democracy, my arse!
If advertising didn't work, why do companies spend so much money on it?
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
I brexiters dance the finger jabbing dance of triumph enough, singing 'you lost get over it!' to remainers, I won't come round to their point of view, but accept the result and ask the brexiters how exactly are they going to progress their victory in practical terms, like the Irish Border for example.
Comments
I counter balanced that with an assessment of the vast range of possible outcomes on leaving.
Then I thought bugger I forgot about Ireland (and Gibraltar for that matter).
I then I thought about cheeses and thought EU cheeses are inferior so I voted leave.
I carry out the same detailed analysis at every General Election too substituting biscuits for cheese.
Would suggest that French cheese in general is on its own better than anything the UK produces other than Chedder or Stilton. Do we produce anything other than chedder and Stilton that isn’t an interpretation of French or Italian cheese ?
Article 7 is separate and relates to any circumstance where a member state is considered to be acting improperly, against the interests of the EU and its member states as a whole.
Unlike the current Polish Government's actions against senior judges, the kind of approach suggested, of waiting until the Government finally knew what it wanted, particularly given the upcoming EU Parliamentary elections and the next round of budgetary negotiations, would have had serious negative consequences across the EU and required firm and fast action. (Not that I am downplaying the importance of the Polish situation, but it has limited impact by comparison).
Of course the UK Government could have emulated the PiS and sought to get into bed with Victor Orban, but the cost of that may have been even less alluring than having to have a sleepover with Arlene last week, to say nothing if the price that would have to be paid.
So, it is possible that the UK could have avoided the final, naughty step, Article 7 sanction, but much of the process could have been applied (and I gave my doubts that a deal with Orban would have been possible in any event).
As an aside, I shudder to think what such a tactic, from the UK, would do to the chances of goodwill in the negotiations; without it, even a basic FTA would be horrendously difficult to achieve.
Seriously, get yourself to one of the places offering PU "from the tank", before next March. There's no way they will continue to bring it in by train after a No Deal Brexit.
*I know that's a different kind of barrel
It turns out that in fact there are still are a few U.K. politicians with intelligence courage and principles. Delighted to learn that my MP Clive Efford is one of them.
This is about more than Brexit. It should concern you, regardless of where you stand on that.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1022753888359903233.html
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
People who voted brexit are a long way away from that scenario, how many would acknowledge they were influenced, or they didn't know what they were doing, they regret it and want to change?
Nowhere near enough to make a difference.
Until brexiters see the impact of what they have done, and realize that they are the only people who can repair the damage we are stuck in this nightmare.
In the event of no solution or way out I would think that it will take stuff like the shortages and restrictions and costs to follow that brexiters will need to face before they even begin to reflect on the damage they have done.
As an example, last Friday my mate Vincent and I were joined in the pub by another neighbour for the first time. He is very intelligent, and successful in business, albeit there are people who say he is very close to a reclusive energy oligarch. Anyway, since he'd had a few by the time we joined him from the match at Dukla, he (not me) started talking politics. What unfolded was a right wing, increasing "alt.right" viewpoint, which is OK. That's not my point. What alarmed me was the topics he ran through, which were clearly an Anglo-American perspective he had derived from..somewhere. It went : "Trump..OK he is an idiot at times, but he talks some sense..I used to trust the BBC but I don't trust any of the MSM any more...look at what's happening in the UK...Sadiq Khan allowed the protests against Trump to go ahead, but not the one in support of Tommy Robinson..." So there you had it. An educated Czech businessman equates a football hooligan from Luton, and his deranged world view, with that of the President of the USA, as if they are equally important global figures. Of course I pointed that out, as well as the fact that "Sadiq Khan" did not and could not give such orders, but his eyes glazed over. He wasn't listening. This phenomenon is all across Europe. People get on to Breitbart News or something and think they've discovered the "truth". Intelligent people, friends, Czechs and Bulgarians, think that "Tommy Robinson" is some kind of freedom fighter. FFS.
https://brilliantmaps.com/public-image-eu/
The (I suspect) majority who think that immigrants are the cause of their economic problems and want a return to a mythical 'good old days' where Britain is isolated from foreign influence, the only cheese is Cheddar and everyone 'buys British'. It's a protectionist world view, and a dumb one.
Then there are the free traders who think the EU puts up too many trade barriers with the rest of the world and we need to get out so that we can have fewer barriers with the US, China etc. and improve trade accordingly. This faction doesn't want to keep people out in principle (free trade involves free movement of labour too, if your labour is what you have to trade) and it wants to allow foreign goods in if they are cheaper/better than British ones.
There is an idealogical contradiction between these factions that I think will eventually become apparent. To give a very specific example, when we are free to make a trade agreement with the USA, it will likely have to include opening our borders to chlorinated chickens (the financial tariffs on trade with the US are already negligible so there is nothing to be gained renegotiating those). That will decimate our own poultry industry and the rural demographic that voted leave will, I think, be up in arms.
I have some sympathy with free-trade leavers, and might have voted leave if I thought their aspirations were politically achievable. I don't think they are however and I think remainers should be focussing more on this aspect of the debate, and the inherant tensions it creates in the Brexit camp, rather than attacking the racism implicit in the views of the protectionist Brexiteers.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.