If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
By any measure you can name me it’s a fact that anyone who voted to leave is complicit in harming the economy and future of this country. That’s the opinion of every credible economist on a worldwide and business basis and includes our own government. Even the loony Jacob Rees-Mogg freely admits that any upturn after Brexit might not be felt for fifty years.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.
And then you make an explantion for how you justify insulting people.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
Precisely. So perhaps the best choice is to move onto the next question which is what does Brexit look like. And then make sure that staying close to the EU wins the logical argument AND the numbers.
Labour has committed to remaining in the Customs Union. There is no logical alternative and that position doesn't patronize leave voters, many of whom support that policy.
The Lib Dems tell all leavers that they're wrong and find themselves stuck on 8%. UKIP do nothing right as a party but also find themselves on 8%. Their support is surging due to May's position and associated theatrics.
Meanwhile it transpires that the Leave campaigns continued to campaign 24 hours after Jo Cox was murdered despite agreeing to suspend activity. What did Gove and Johnson know about this activity and should Gove now resign?
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
I brexiters dance the finger jabbing dance of triumph enough, singing 'you lost get over it!' to remainers, I won't come round to their point of view, but accept the result and ask the brexiters how exactly are they going to progress their victory in practical terms, like the Irish Border for example.
I know as remainers it is our right to ask them how to solve all these issues, but if we accept that we need to make the most of a bad lot, how would you solve it if you had to take a stab at it? You have every right to say "you cant" but if you had to come up with something, do you have an idea? One of my first bosses and possibly my best, once turned to me and said "stop bringing me problems, bring me solutions" and it really clicked.
One thing I would say is that the EU (and again, it's their right) are completely intransigent. Everyone involved on all sides are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The EU are not the good guys in this. The government is not being as unreasonable as we often paint them as being, and I think a lot of EU leaders will start to speak out soon if negotiations don't move forward.
No deal is a disaster for everyone, no need to chant "they need us more than we need them," we all need each other.
I am sadly convinced now that Brexit (and by this I mean what someone who voted Brexit would consider Brexit rather than pretending to leave) will happen.
I hope that once it happens we can reconcile the relationships we have damaged quickly.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
Precisely. So perhaps the best choice is to move onto the next question which is what does Brexit look like. And then make sure that staying close to the EU wins the logical argument AND the numbers.
Labour has committed to remaining in the Customs Union. There is no logical alternative and that position doesn't patronize leave voters, many of whom support that policy.
The Lib Dems tell all leavers that they're wrong and find themselves stuck on 8%. UKIP do nothing right as a party but also find themselves on 8%. Their support is surging due to May's position and associated theatrics.
Meanwhile it transpires that the Leave campaigns continued to campaign 24 hours after Jo Cox was murdered despite agreeing to suspend activity. What did Gove and Johnson know about this activity and should Gove now resign?
Genuine question. Is Jeremy Corbyn's most recent nationalist protectionist speech compatible with remaining in the customs union? My understanding is that it would not be.
Let's not be fooled, there is no leader in British politics with a credible stance on Brexit. Labour are just making noises in the background but not doing anything of substance. Which is shameful.
On the Leave campaign, if you are referring to what I think you are from what I saw the other day, was it BeLeave who were at fault? I don't think that can be pinned to Gove at all. He's not exactly a scalp that anyone would be excited about claiming though anyway. The fact that someone like him is on the frontbenches is a sign of how lightweight this political generation is.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
WIth all respect, every post you make, you seem to talk like every leave voter was a clone of you. Why should it disapoint anybody that YOU were not swayed by anything? You are fully entitled for your opinion and that deserves respect, but that isn't the point surely.
I could write to the head of McDonalds and say sorry to disapoint you but you are wasting nearly a billion dollars a year in advertising because it doesn't make me want to buy your product!
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
Precisely. So perhaps the best choice is to move onto the next question which is what does Brexit look like. And then make sure that staying close to the EU wins the logical argument AND the numbers.
Labour has committed to remaining in the Customs Union. There is no logical alternative and that position doesn't patronize leave voters, many of whom support that policy.
The Lib Dems tell all leavers that they're wrong and find themselves stuck on 8%. UKIP do nothing right as a party but also find themselves on 8%. Their support is surging due to May's position and associated theatrics.
Meanwhile it transpires that the Leave campaigns continued to campaign 24 hours after Jo Cox was murdered despite agreeing to suspend activity. What did Gove and Johnson know about this activity and should Gove now resign?
Genuine question. Is Jeremy Corbyn's most recent nationalist protectionist speech compatible with remaining in the customs union? My understanding is that it would not be.
Let's not be fooled, there is no leader in British politics with a credible stance on Brexit. Labour are just making noises in the background but not doing anything of substance. Which is shameful.
On the Leave campaign, if you are referring to what I think you are from what I saw the other day, was it BeLeave who were at fault? I don't think that can be pinned to Gove at all. He's not exactly a scalp that anyone would be excited about claiming though anyway. The fact that someone like him is on the frontbenches is a sign of how lightweight this political generation is.
He is referring to the DCMS committee report which I posted up earlier, led by Damien Collins who now becomes the first Tory I would ever vote for as my MP. It is absolutely terrifying, and as I wrote above, everyone should read it. It is about much more than Brexit.
However you can be excused for not knowing about it, since the BBC did not even consider it worth putting in the 10 minute news bulletins at 1 o'clock, let alone cover it in the World at One section. That is part of a systematic worrying failure of the BBC to cover any aspect of this story except under extreme pressure from the public and other journalists.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
I brexiters dance the finger jabbing dance of triumph enough, singing 'you lost get over it!' to remainers, I won't come round to their point of view, but accept the result and ask the brexiters how exactly are they going to progress their victory in practical terms, like the Irish Border for example.
I know as remainers it is our right to ask them how to solve all these issues, but if we accept that we need to make the most of a bad lot, how would you solve it if you had to take a stab at it? You have every right to say "you cant" but if you had to come up with something, do you have an idea? One of my first bosses and possibly my best, once turned to me and said "stop bringing me problems, bring me solutions" and it really clicked.
One thing I would say is that the EU (and again, it's their right) are completely intransigent. Everyone involved on all sides are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The EU are not the good guys in this. The government is not being as unreasonable as we often paint them as being, and I think a lot of EU leaders will start to speak out soon if negotiations don't move forward.
No deal is a disaster for everyone, no need to chant "they need us more than we need them," we all need each other.
I am sadly convinced now that Brexit (and by this I mean what someone who voted Brexit would consider Brexit rather than pretending to leave) will happen.
I hope that once it happens we can reconcile the relationships we have damaged quickly.
I fully understand what you seem to be saying, that now we are in this mess how do we make the best we can of it, and how can we come together in order to move forward?
This is the dilemma posed now by a lot of people in the UK at least.
You slip in the phrase 'The EU are not the good guys in this'. That is a pretty loaded sentence.
Do you mean something like 'the EU are neither the good guys or the bad guys'? Or do you mean that the EU are the 'bad guys'? You go on to say something similar about the Government, that they are neither reasonable or unreasonable, or do you mean the Government are the good guys?
The problem is seated in the letter 'EU'.
The UK is leaving the EU, the UK is saying they want to be recognised as the UK, with the decision reached by the 'will of the people'. OK, fair enough. However the flip side is that the EU is the EU, and continues to be so. They are not being intransigent, simply being themselves.
The UK and the EU are neither good guys or bad guys, they are entities that used to be joined and now they will split up...we can call it a no fault divorce if you like.
However in the process of that divorce why on earth should the EU change from being the EU into something else?
The UK is not expected to change into something it isn't either.
The partners split up, but they can't demand that each other has plastic surgery before they go their separate ways. Nobody is prepared to cut off their noses, and why should they if it means they become something different? The issue is surely about the conditions around the separation, and the ongoing differences between the EU and the UK.
There is the roadblock.
Nobody has a clue as to what to do.
As a list we seem to have:
The EU saying you can stay if you like. One group of brexiters saying walk away now with no kind of arrangements at all. There is the Norway option. The Swiss option The Canadian option, indeed Canada-lite as well. The EEA option. The Chequers option. The Labour party option (which is crap in my view). There is the cherry picking option. There is the cake and eat it option. There is the BINO option.
Can anybody seriously see a way how that range of things can be resolved in order to reconcile relationships? It seems to me that people have driven their flags into the ground they are determined to defend it and are saying 'my way or no way'.
Which brings me back to a couple of fundamentals.
Brexiters won, and they have to be in the driving seat from now on.
Which means knowing how to drive in the first place, and some idea of where they are going. So far the destination seems to be either Boris and his 'dream', or fifty years hence courtesy of Rees Mogg.
The problem it seems to me is that brexiters want a self driving car, and for somebody other to sort out the satnav.
If this kind of post is belittling or patronising I am sorry, but if patronising is an issue either here or in the wider debate, all the brexiters need to do is to tell us how it is all going to happen.
The standardisation of a metric system that people can understand more easily was the last straw for me too!!
I still can't believe they changed all our speed limits to KPH. And all those British golf courses now measured in metres rather than yards. Next they'll be wanting to make time metric, thank God we'll be out by then.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
Chippy please explain how the Working Time Directive has cost you money. This is legislation to stop people working more than 48 hours a week (nearly 10 hours a day) without their written consent.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
I brexiters dance the finger jabbing dance of triumph enough, singing 'you lost get over it!' to remainers, I won't come round to their point of view, but accept the result and ask the brexiters how exactly are they going to progress their victory in practical terms, like the Irish Border for example.
I know as remainers it is our right to ask them how to solve all these issues, but if we accept that we need to make the most of a bad lot, how would you solve it if you had to take a stab at it? You have every right to say "you cant" but if you had to come up with something, do you have an idea? One of my first bosses and possibly my best, once turned to me and said "stop bringing me problems, bring me solutions" and it really clicked.
One thing I would say is that the EU (and again, it's their right) are completely intransigent. Everyone involved on all sides are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The EU are not the good guys in this. The government is not being as unreasonable as we often paint them as being, and I think a lot of EU leaders will start to speak out soon if negotiations don't move forward.
No deal is a disaster for everyone, no need to chant "they need us more than we need them," we all need each other.
I am sadly convinced now that Brexit (and by this I mean what someone who voted Brexit would consider Brexit rather than pretending to leave) will happen.
I hope that once it happens we can reconcile the relationships we have damaged quickly.
I fully understand what you seem to be saying, that now we are in this mess how do we make the best we can of it, and how can we come together in order to move forward?
This is the dilemma posed now by a lot of people in the UK at least.
You slip in the phrase 'The EU are not the good guys in this'. That is a pretty loaded sentence.
Do you mean something like 'the EU are neither the good guys or the bad guys'? Or do you mean that the EU are the 'bad guys'? You go on to say something similar about the Government, that they are neither reasonable or unreasonable, or do you mean the Government are the good guys?
The problem is seated in the letter 'EU'.
The UK is leaving the EU, the UK is saying they want to be recognised as the UK, with the decision reached by the 'will of the people'. OK, fair enough. However the flip side is that the EU is the EU, and continues to be so. They are not being intransigent, simply being themselves.
The UK and the EU are neither good guys or bad guys, they are entities that used to be joined and now they will split up...we can call it a no fault divorce if you like.
However in the process of that divorce why on earth should the EU change from being the EU into something else?
The UK is not expected to change into something it isn't either.
The partners split up, but they can't demand that each other has plastic surgery before they go their separate ways. Nobody is prepared to cut off their noses, and why should they if it means they become something different? The issue is surely about the conditions around the separation, and the ongoing differences between the EU and the UK.
There is the roadblock.
Nobody has a clue as to what to do.
As a list we seem to have:
The EU saying you can stay if you like. One group of brexiters saying walk away now with no kind of arrangements at all. There is the Norway option. The Swiss option The Canadian option, indeed Canada-lite as well. The EEA option. The Chequers option. The Labour party option (which is crap in my view). There is the cherry picking option. There is the cake and eat it option. There is the BINO option.
Can anybody seriously see a way how that range of things can be resolved in order to reconcile relationships? It seems to me that people have driven their flags into the ground they are determined to defend it and are saying 'my way or no way'.
Which brings me back to a couple of fundamentals.
Brexiters won, and they have to be in the driving seat from now on.
Which means knowing how to drive in the first place, and some idea of where they are going. So far the destination seems to be either Boris and his 'dream', or fifty years hence courtesy of Rees Mogg.
The problem it seems to me is that brexiters want a self driving car, and for somebody other to sort out the satnav.
If this kind of post is belittling or patronising I am sorry, but if patronising is an issue either here or in the wider debate, all the brexiters need to do is to tell us how it is all going to happen.
To clarify, I am saying the EU, and for that matter our government are neither the good guys or the bad guys. Didn't mean to load any sentences. I'm just pointing out that all the criticism is leveled at our government, but they are trying to come up with solutions, albeit not great ones.
The EU stance is driven by their constitutional rules. The fact that Brexiteers like JRM and Boris seemed unaware of them does not make our failure to broker a deal anyones fault apart from Davis, May, Raab The Sun, Mail and anyone else involved.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
Precisely. So perhaps the best choice is to move onto the next question which is what does Brexit look like. And then make sure that staying close to the EU wins the logical argument AND the numbers.
Labour has committed to remaining in the Customs Union. There is no logical alternative and that position doesn't patronize leave voters, many of whom support that policy.
The Lib Dems tell all leavers that they're wrong and find themselves stuck on 8%. UKIP do nothing right as a party but also find themselves on 8%. Their support is surging due to May's position and associated theatrics.
Meanwhile it transpires that the Leave campaigns continued to campaign 24 hours after Jo Cox was murdered despite agreeing to suspend activity. What did Gove and Johnson know about this activity and should Gove now resign?
I thought Labour were committing to forming a customs union rather than staying in the Customs Union? Allied with Corbyn’s bizarre speech last week that sounded like it was lifted from an EDL Facebook post and you have a position that’s even more confusing than the Governments.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
By any measure you can name me it’s a fact that anyone who voted to leave is complicit in harming the economy and future of this country. That’s the opinion of every credible economist on a worldwide and business basis and includes our own government. Even the loony Jacob Rees-Mogg freely admits that any upturn after Brexit might not be felt for fifty years.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.
And then you make an explantion for how you justify insulting people.
Nothing at all wrong with insulting someone if it’s justified.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
By any measure you can name me it’s a fact that anyone who voted to leave is complicit in harming the economy and future of this country. That’s the opinion of every credible economist on a worldwide and business basis and includes our own government. Even the loony Jacob Rees-Mogg freely admits that any upturn after Brexit might not be felt for fifty years.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.
And then you make an explantion for how you justify insulting people.
Nothing at all wrong with insulting someone if it’s justified.
There is when they have a vote and you need to change their opinion.
I am convinced that about 80% of people are irrational loons when it comes to Brexit who surround themselves with an echo chamber and only look for sources that support their opinion. The remaining 20% should (on both sides) should be allowed to get on with it.
If we patronise and belittle leavers enough, they might just come round to our point of view!
It's why the polling on leave/remain hasn't really changed since the referendum. You'd think people might change their minds seeing how the government are making such an arse of Brexit. People dig their heels in. They don't like being dismissed out of hand as stupid racists by whiny bad losers.
Or being wrong
That's the trouble though isn't it. So often the explanation of why leave voters might be wrong is just replaced by insults.
By any measure you can name me it’s a fact that anyone who voted to leave is complicit in harming the economy and future of this country. That’s the opinion of every credible economist on a worldwide and business basis and includes our own government. Even the loony Jacob Rees-Mogg freely admits that any upturn after Brexit might not be felt for fifty years.
I accept that some of those brexiters will now have changed their mind based on what has transpired since the vote but I can’t help feeling that those that won’t look at the evidence now available and won’t change their mind are exactly 100% worth being called stupid.
And then you make an explantion for how you justify insulting people.
Nothing at all wrong with insulting someone if it’s justified.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
So you can give a considered response when you want to. I’m sure you are right. Hundreds of thousands of leave voters did so with their own justification but many more were duped not necessarily by the Facebook adds but certainly by the proven lies and dirty tricks perpetrated by certain aspects of the media over literally years and by what is increasingly obvious the leave campaign being funded illegally by foreign influence.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
So you can give a considered response when you want to. I’m sure you are right. Hundreds of thousands of leave voters did so with their own justification but many more were duped not necessarily by the Facebook adds but certainly by the proven lies and dirty tricks perpetrated by certain aspects of the media over literally years and by what is increasingly obvious the leave campaign being funded illegally by foreign influence.
I can when i haven't drunk bottles of wine and beer..
I am not cross with the Leave voters for being fooled into thinking that voting leave was their best option. After all, if you believe you're right, you should vote in line with your belief. And the reason such a large group of fellow Brits were persuaded into thinking that was, of course, lies spouted by compelling politicians and repeated by the media with its vested interests.
So if you get politicians and media in cahoots for months and, in some cases, many years, the groundswell of opinion is swayed. Slowly, but significantly. And the lies and propaganda hadn't been seen at those levels since the second world war.
It's not a sign of stupidity to have been taken in by it. £350m a week sounds very appealing. So does "taking back control of our border". So does "taking back control of our laws". So does "taking back control of our money". Who wouldn't want to be on the side of people making these claims? They're repeated often enough, by people that seem trustworthy. It's easier to believe them than question them.
So I am not cross with Leave voters for being fooled. In many ways, the result of the vote was inevitable.
What I am furious about is the Leave voters who now refuse to see that the lies, the cheating, the deceit and the law-breaking somehow don't matter and shouldn't be called out.
If Derren Brown fools you with a trick, it doesn't mean you're an idiot. But if he shows you how the trick is done and you're still fooled, you are.
A lot of people will claim not to have been influenced by Facebook advertising. But that entirely misses the point.
In the old days (say, the three or four hundred years leading up to the start of this century), advertising was both lucrative and unsophisticated. Product owners would pay publishers lots of money to place advertising in publications they thought were most likely to be seen by people who might buy their products. Lots of times the ad will be seen by people who will never buy the product. Sometimes it will be seen by people who might. And... that's it. No analytics, no feedback loops, no sophistication. If your product was profitable, you'd lump more advertising pounds on. And if your product wasn't profitable, you'd probably lump more advertising pounds on until it either turned around or went bust.
With Facebook advertising (as well as other social media and other online advertising) the playbook is entirely different. Whether or not the lies contained within the advert itself actually influence anyone isn't relevant. What is relevant is who sees the ad and what they do with it.
Facebook allows you accurately, and with great precision, to determine who is going to see your ad. This can be based on any number of criteria. Age, sex, race, religion, location, hobbies, interests, political affiliation, likely voting intention, likelihood that the person will actually vote. So, pay £100k for an ad in the Sun and you will know a lot of people will see it. Pay £100k for ads on Facebook, and you will know everything about who sees it, when, where, what they do with it, how they react, what they do next.
The two things you need, however, are (1) a set of data and (2) a lot of money. You need the data so that you can accurately determine who your ads will reach and choose the right ads to reach the right people with. There are lots of legal ways to acquire this data. And you need significant chunks of money to make enough difference. But there are limits to how much money you can spend.
To win an election, you don't need to get everyone to understand and agree with all your policies. That will never happen in any election. What you need is (1) people who are on your side to be more likely to vote than not; and (2) people who are not on your side to be less likely to vote.
And that's what Leave managed, with great skill, knowledge, expertise and efficiency. The lies they spread were aimed at the small number of people in the right locations to make them either more likely to vote Leave or less likely to vote Remain.
The three problems we are faced with, however, are these. (1) the messages were based on lies; (2) the data that was used was stolen; (3) the ads were paid for by an illegal overspend. And that's what everyone - Leave or Remain - should be furious about right now.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
Chippy please explain how the Working Time Directive has cost you money. This is legislation to stop people working more than 48 hours a week (nearly 10 hours a day) without their written consent.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
When the WRT came in I was a plant manager who maintained important plant and process equipment which had to be done at weekends to prevent downtime...
The company in its wisdom despite knowing that this work could not be done at any other time, except midweek when they would lose productivity used this tool to cut our weekend overtime. We asked if we could sign OPT out forms as some of our contractors did they said no...
So I lost money by not working overtime. They were more than happy before this foolish directive came in.
The legislation was good for some workers (particularly low paid who were exploited) but not all for people like myself...
There was a strong, mistruthful TV campaign as well. The NHS one was cheesy, nonsensical and amusing but no doubt proved influential between popular evening programmes.
"But Britain is teetering on the edge, on the verge of making catastrophic, irreversibly damaging mistakes."
I think history will judge and bury every single Brexit politician and the Tory party. Over the next decade it is important that we never forget or forgive what they have done to us.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
Chippy please explain how the Working Time Directive has cost you money. This is legislation to stop people working more than 48 hours a week (nearly 10 hours a day) without their written consent.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
When the WRT came in I was a plant manager who maintained important plant and process equipment which had to be done at weekends to prevent downtime...
The company in its wisdom despite knowing that this work could not be done at any other time, except midweek when they would lose productivity used this tool to cut our weekend overtime. We asked if we could sign OPT out forms as some of our contractors did they said no...
So I lost money by not working overtime. They were more than happy before this foolish directive came in.
The legislation was good for some workers (particularly low paid who were exploited) but not all for people like myself...
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
Chippy please explain how the Working Time Directive has cost you money. This is legislation to stop people working more than 48 hours a week (nearly 10 hours a day) without their written consent.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
When the WRT came in I was a plant manager who maintained important plant and process equipment which had to be done at weekends to prevent downtime...
The company in its wisdom despite knowing that this work could not be done at any other time, except midweek when they would lose productivity used this tool to cut our weekend overtime. We asked if we could sign OPT out forms as some of our contractors did they said no...
So I lost money by not working overtime. They were more than happy before this foolish directive came in.
The legislation was good for some workers (particularly low paid who were exploited) but not all for people like myself...
I may be being overly dim, but was the problem not the company for which you then worked, rather than the Working Time Directive?
In my experience, which is mostly Northern Ireland, problems that people have with the EU rules and standards are almost always due to local or national decisions made, under the guise of compliance.
For the most part I think this is true. Who in their right mind is going to admit even to themselves that they were duped and based their vote decision on lies and misinformation by crooks and charlatans and didn’t feel the need to look at the expert opinion which was readily available.
You would have to be stupid wouldn’t you ?
Never seen any of those ads......sorry to disappoint you but I can honestly day I was not swayed by any ad compaign, red battle bus or pollster.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
Golfie.... Much easier to say you didn't know what you were voting for, otherwise the majority of this lot won't believe you as your answer doesn't fit their narrative.
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
Chippy please explain how the Working Time Directive has cost you money. This is legislation to stop people working more than 48 hours a week (nearly 10 hours a day) without their written consent.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
When the WRT came in I was a plant manager who maintained important plant and process equipment which had to be done at weekends to prevent downtime...
The company in its wisdom despite knowing that this work could not be done at any other time, except midweek when they would lose productivity used this tool to cut our weekend overtime. We asked if we could sign OPT out forms as some of our contractors did they said no...
So I lost money by not working overtime. They were more than happy before this foolish directive came in.
The legislation was good for some workers (particularly low paid who were exploited) but not all for people like myself...
Bloody EU, introducing directives that protect the low paid from exploitative employers! The complete bastards...
Comments
Labour has committed to remaining in the Customs Union. There is no logical alternative and that position doesn't patronize leave voters, many of whom support that policy.
The Lib Dems tell all leavers that they're wrong and find themselves stuck on 8%. UKIP do nothing right as a party but also find themselves on 8%. Their support is surging due to May's position and associated theatrics.
Meanwhile it transpires that the Leave campaigns continued to campaign 24 hours after Jo Cox was murdered despite agreeing to suspend activity. What did Gove and Johnson know about this activity and should Gove now resign?
One thing I would say is that the EU (and again, it's their right) are completely intransigent. Everyone involved on all sides are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The EU are not the good guys in this. The government is not being as unreasonable as we often paint them as being, and I think a lot of EU leaders will start to speak out soon if negotiations don't move forward.
No deal is a disaster for everyone, no need to chant "they need us more than we need them," we all need each other.
I am sadly convinced now that Brexit (and by this I mean what someone who voted Brexit would consider Brexit rather than pretending to leave) will happen.
I hope that once it happens we can reconcile the relationships we have damaged quickly.
Let's not be fooled, there is no leader in British politics with a credible stance on Brexit. Labour are just making noises in the background but not doing anything of substance. Which is shameful.
On the Leave campaign, if you are referring to what I think you are from what I saw the other day, was it BeLeave who were at fault? I don't think that can be pinned to Gove at all. He's not exactly a scalp that anyone would be excited about claiming though anyway. The fact that someone like him is on the frontbenches is a sign of how lightweight this political generation is.
I am 51 years old. I didn't just decide in 2016 to vote leave. I have grown up with the "Common Market" and the ever convergence into a single European state. First there was the common agriculture & fisheries policy, then pints into litres, then pegging £ to the DM, then the Euro (which we sensibly kept out of) and now the powers that be in Brussels want more convergence.
I just don't want it. I have never liked the idea of being part of Europe. Obviously we trade with them & they are our biggest market.....doesn't mean we have to be a part of it.
I could write to the head of McDonalds and say sorry to disapoint you but you are wasting nearly a billion dollars a year in advertising because it doesn't make me want to buy your product!
I had similar views to you but one the final straws was the working time directive, cost me thousands of pounds as my company wouldn't opt out initially and in my industry you have no choice otherwise you leave things unsafe. Plus the British government opt out view was opposed by some of our EU 'friends'..
However you can be excused for not knowing about it, since the BBC did not even consider it worth putting in the 10 minute news bulletins at 1 o'clock, let alone cover it in the World at One section. That is part of a systematic worrying failure of the BBC to cover any aspect of this story except under extreme pressure from the public and other journalists.
This is the dilemma posed now by a lot of people in the UK at least.
You slip in the phrase 'The EU are not the good guys in this'. That is a pretty loaded sentence.
Do you mean something like 'the EU are neither the good guys or the bad guys'? Or do you mean that the EU are the 'bad guys'?
You go on to say something similar about the Government, that they are neither reasonable or unreasonable, or do you mean the Government are the good guys?
The problem is seated in the letter 'EU'.
The UK is leaving the EU, the UK is saying they want to be recognised as the UK, with the decision reached by the 'will of the people'. OK, fair enough. However the flip side is that the EU is the EU, and continues to be so. They are not being intransigent, simply being themselves.
The UK and the EU are neither good guys or bad guys, they are entities that used to be joined and now they will split up...we can call it a no fault divorce if you like.
However in the process of that divorce why on earth should the EU change from being the EU into something else?
The UK is not expected to change into something it isn't either.
The partners split up, but they can't demand that each other has plastic surgery before they go their separate ways. Nobody is prepared to cut off their noses, and why should they if it means they become something different?
The issue is surely about the conditions around the separation, and the ongoing differences between the EU and the UK.
There is the roadblock.
Nobody has a clue as to what to do.
As a list we seem to have:
The EU saying you can stay if you like.
One group of brexiters saying walk away now with no kind of arrangements at all.
There is the Norway option.
The Swiss option
The Canadian option, indeed Canada-lite as well.
The EEA option.
The Chequers option.
The Labour party option (which is crap in my view).
There is the cherry picking option.
There is the cake and eat it option.
There is the BINO option.
Can anybody seriously see a way how that range of things can be resolved in order to reconcile relationships? It seems to me that people have driven their flags into the ground they are determined to defend it and are saying 'my way or no way'.
Which brings me back to a couple of fundamentals.
Brexiters won, and they have to be in the driving seat from now on.
Which means knowing how to drive in the first place, and some idea of where they are going. So far the destination seems to be either Boris and his 'dream', or fifty years hence courtesy of Rees Mogg.
The problem it seems to me is that brexiters want a self driving car, and for somebody other to sort out the satnav.
If this kind of post is belittling or patronising I am sorry, but if patronising is an issue either here or in the wider debate, all the brexiters need to do is to tell us how it is all going to happen.
I have done so in several companies, the hours over 35/37.5 being totally unpaid. Never offered or signed a waiver. I believe the Brits still work the longest hours in Europe. If it is an issue with you, I'm glad I don't work in your company.
I am convinced that about 80% of people are irrational loons when it comes to Brexit who surround themselves with an echo chamber and only look for sources that support their opinion. The remaining 20% should (on both sides) should be allowed to get on with it.
So if you get politicians and media in cahoots for months and, in some cases, many years, the groundswell of opinion is swayed. Slowly, but significantly. And the lies and propaganda hadn't been seen at those levels since the second world war.
It's not a sign of stupidity to have been taken in by it. £350m a week sounds very appealing. So does "taking back control of our border". So does "taking back control of our laws". So does "taking back control of our money". Who wouldn't want to be on the side of people making these claims? They're repeated often enough, by people that seem trustworthy. It's easier to believe them than question them.
So I am not cross with Leave voters for being fooled. In many ways, the result of the vote was inevitable.
What I am furious about is the Leave voters who now refuse to see that the lies, the cheating, the deceit and the law-breaking somehow don't matter and shouldn't be called out.
If Derren Brown fools you with a trick, it doesn't mean you're an idiot. But if he shows you how the trick is done and you're still fooled, you are.
In the old days (say, the three or four hundred years leading up to the start of this century), advertising was both lucrative and unsophisticated. Product owners would pay publishers lots of money to place advertising in publications they thought were most likely to be seen by people who might buy their products. Lots of times the ad will be seen by people who will never buy the product. Sometimes it will be seen by people who might. And... that's it. No analytics, no feedback loops, no sophistication. If your product was profitable, you'd lump more advertising pounds on. And if your product wasn't profitable, you'd probably lump more advertising pounds on until it either turned around or went bust.
With Facebook advertising (as well as other social media and other online advertising) the playbook is entirely different. Whether or not the lies contained within the advert itself actually influence anyone isn't relevant. What is relevant is who sees the ad and what they do with it.
Facebook allows you accurately, and with great precision, to determine who is going to see your ad. This can be based on any number of criteria. Age, sex, race, religion, location, hobbies, interests, political affiliation, likely voting intention, likelihood that the person will actually vote. So, pay £100k for an ad in the Sun and you will know a lot of people will see it. Pay £100k for ads on Facebook, and you will know everything about who sees it, when, where, what they do with it, how they react, what they do next.
The two things you need, however, are (1) a set of data and (2) a lot of money. You need the data so that you can accurately determine who your ads will reach and choose the right ads to reach the right people with. There are lots of legal ways to acquire this data. And you need significant chunks of money to make enough difference. But there are limits to how much money you can spend.
To win an election, you don't need to get everyone to understand and agree with all your policies. That will never happen in any election. What you need is (1) people who are on your side to be more likely to vote than not; and (2) people who are not on your side to be less likely to vote.
And that's what Leave managed, with great skill, knowledge, expertise and efficiency. The lies they spread were aimed at the small number of people in the right locations to make them either more likely to vote Leave or less likely to vote Remain.
The three problems we are faced with, however, are these. (1) the messages were based on lies; (2) the data that was used was stolen; (3) the ads were paid for by an illegal overspend. And that's what everyone - Leave or Remain - should be furious about right now.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html
The company in its wisdom despite knowing that this work could not be done at any other time, except midweek when they would lose productivity used this tool to cut our weekend overtime. We asked if we could sign OPT out forms as some of our contractors did they said no...
So I lost money by not working overtime. They were more than happy before this foolish directive came in.
The legislation was good for some workers (particularly low paid who were exploited) but not all for people like myself...
I think history will judge and bury every single Brexit politician and the Tory party. Over the next decade it is important that we never forget or forgive what they have done to us.
Do plant managers get paid overtime ? Hmmmm.
In my experience, which is mostly Northern Ireland, problems that people have with the EU rules and standards are almost always due to local or national decisions made, under the guise of compliance.