We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
Trump seems very Pro Israel but I'm assuming he's doing this to get at the Muslims. I'm not really clear what Labour is trying to do....
With Trump it is partly 3 but mostly 4 as that really appeals to his base who can forgive him 'grabbing pussies' if he brings about he second coming. A lot of campaign bucks in that as well.
I mean, you might not actually be wrong, depending on how people are able to view the relative merits of the major political parties objectively, but...I mean, if Corbyn is done, what are the Tories?
By done I mean I think this whole blow up has harmed his chances of attracting voters that may be on the fence/the type he needs to get into power. I will always vote labour on the basis that they're the only party that can realistically stop the tossers that are the Tory party getting into power, but I think this anti antisemitism will affect those that may swingto farr. I don't know, just musing
enabling, through their sheer ineptitude, the Tory party to wreck the country. If you are a fan of moderate centre left politics I’m not sure how you could possibly vote Labour in its present guise.
Who do you suggest? SNP or the Greens?
I don’t suggest that you vote for anyone, it’s your choice, I just don’t see how anyone who wants a soft (or no Brexit) and who believes in moderate centre left politics could vote Labour when they are led by a man who believes in neither of those things.
Lib Dem, Greens, SNP (although the “N” in that name is an issue for me) all exist but in most constituencies there will also be at least one decent independent candidate.
See I view Corbyn as centre left, it is just that now makes you look like a communist as the centre ground has moved to the right. Until we get PR all the examples you talk of are not worth voting for although I would vote any of them to beat a Tory candidate. I have been a LD voter, who were further to the left than Labour for some time, but I now see them as enabling the Tories to enact the worst excess of austerity and the whole 'Orange Booker' movement dragged them to far to the right of the centre.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
The who to vote for dilemma is a tricky one. My only take on this at the moment is to look your constituency candidates in the eye and weigh each one up.
The problem Corbyn has is that he is feared by the establishment and they are pulling out all the stops in terms of smearing him. That isn't saying he hasn't made mistakes - anti semitism was a weakness in the party that needed to be handled much more decisively but with this government being about as hopeless as it is possible to be he is getting both barrels. We had a referendum campaign were both sides were queuing up to make the biggest exaggerations possible. I think we are being treated with contempt - but maybe it is the contempt we deserve.
Corbyn is a pragmatic remainer whilst being a Brexiter by instinct. People can say he isn't but he is. He dislikes many elements of EU influence and policy on the social side, but appreciates we are too closely intertwined not to suffer significant economic hardship by leaving.
The who to vote for dilemma is a tricky one. My only take on this at the moment is to look your constituency candidates in the eye and weigh each one up.
I live in a safe Tory seat (bad)
but have a good local MP in Bob Neil (good)
who voted remain and was later branded a traitor by the Mail (good for him)
So while I'm happy with him as my MP I've never voted conservative and don't mean to start now. Can't vote for the antisemitism apologist and friend of terrorists Corbyn lead labour party (although I have voted Labour in the past) so will have to see who else is on the ballot paper.
I was torn at the referendum between parliamentary sovereignty if we left (good) v the unknown future and vague land of milk and honey promises out of the EU (bad) so I voted remain.
It's turned out that the land of milk and honey didn't really exist (as I thought it wouldn't) and parliamentary sovereignty is already being diminished by the constant "will of the people" cries if MPs actually try to have a say on anything such as having a vote on the final deal.
I can't see there being an election anytime soon (Why would May risk another kicking?) nor another referendum so we'll either slip into no deal chaos or more likely we'll take a "short term" compromise of joining the EEA while we "sort things out" which will suit no leavers and few remainers.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You don't seem to have read what I have written.
I was talking about my fears and history. I don't agree with your claims that Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but I am not a particular fan either, mainly because of the Brexit stance.
How you reached your conclusion on a 'convenient place to deport people' I will never know. I was talking about far right groups recognising Israel, when in the past they hated it.
My fear is that it will be used against us in the future although at the moment what that fear is hasn't been revealed but the far right is involved in the long game, and that scares me. I thought that that would have been clear from my post as other respondents appear to have grasped it.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You make some good points,which I agree with, but to the best of my knowledge you are not Jewish. I always feel it is good to cut Jewish people some slack if they sometimes seem paranoid. Especially those I know and like and have helped me out in the past.
Anyway, there is, or was, another thread for this theme.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You make some good points,which I agree with, but to the best of my knowledge you are not Jewish. I always feel it is good to cut Jewish people some slack if they sometimes seem paranoid. Especially those I know and like and have helped me out in the past.
Anyway, there is, or was, another thread for this theme.
Corbyn has always accepted Israel's right to exist but qualified it that under it's original borders. That may not be particularly pro semitic but it is hardly anti semitic. He is highly critical of Israel, and that has allowed him to be soft on people within the party who are genuinely anti semitic. The jewish community have been angered by his reluctance to address this over a significant period of time and now the fires are being stoked.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You make some good points,which I agree with, but to the best of my knowledge you are not Jewish. I always feel it is good to cut Jewish people some slack if they sometimes seem paranoid. Especially those I know and like and have helped me out in the past.
Anyway, there is, or was, another thread for this theme.
Why would you assume that and why are Jewish people more "paranoid" than any other group?
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
Labour voter all my life. Trust me there is nothing that the media could do to influence my views.
My opinion of Corbyn is based upon what I see of the man and based upon his policies.
Brexit is the single biggest crisis this country has faced since the end of the Second World War. I wanted Labour to come out and be fully opposed to leaving the eu. I understand given the referendum demographic that was always going to be difficult but Corbyn didn’t campaign to remain and has shown me precious little to make me think he is anything other than a complete brexiteer. He wants the Tories to complete Brexit and then hopes to pick up the pieces. In my view he is a coward, a hypocrite and untrustworthy.
The quality of his front bench is frighteningly abysmal with the odd exception. His power base of a Unite and Momentum have a stranglehold on the party and centre left moderates are being squeezed and bullied.
I have a good local MP in Clive Efford but at the moment I’m struggling to even give him my support.
Never said this before but my vote is up for grabs to whatever party looks like getting Brexit scrapped or minimises the impact of leaving.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You don't seem to have read what I have written.
I was talking about my fears and history. I don't agree with your claims that Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but I am not a particular fan either, mainly because of the Brexit stance.
How you reached your conclusion on a 'convenient place to deport people' I will never know. I was talking about far right groups recognising Israel, when in the past they hated it.
My fear is that it will be used against us in the future although at the moment what that fear is hasn't been revealed but the far right is involved in the long game, and that scares me. I thought that that would have been clear from my post as other respondents appear to have grasped it.
It just seemed odd to mention "recognising the state of Israel" in this context when the loudest voices shouting about it being an illegal state are from the Corbyn left. It is they and their racist, homophobic, misogynist "friends" in Hamas etc that want to destroy the state of Israel.
Not that we should ever forget or down play the racists on the right, either, they too are an existential threat, although reading much of what is posted on-line or heard in labour NEC meetings by Corbym supporters it is hard to tell if the parting is on the left or the right. They even share the same memes and cartoons and the same slurs about Rothchilds, world conspiracies, blood libels, controlling the media and we read Corbyn supporters saying "Hitler knew how to deal with the Jews".
But If I have misread what you said then I apologise.
Shock horror the right in the country as a whole, press and his own party, JLC and BoD attack Corbyn. Lucky he had such an easy ride since he was elected Labour leader.
The who to vote for dilemma is a tricky one. My only take on this at the moment is to look your constituency candidates in the eye and weigh each one up.
I live in a safe Tory seat (bad)
but have a good local MP in Bob Neil (good)
who voted remain and was later branded a traitor by the Mail (good for him)
So while I'm happy with him as my MP I've never voted conservative and don't mean to start now. Can't vote for the antisemitism apologist and friend of terrorists Corbyn lead labour party (although I have voted Labour in the past) so will have to see who else is on the ballot paper.
I was torn at the referendum between parliamentary sovereignty if we left (good) v the unknown future and vague land of milk and honey promises out of the EU (bad) so I voted remain.
It's turned out that the land of milk and honey didn't really exist (as I thought it wouldn't) and parliamentary sovereignty is already being diminished by the constant "will of the people" cries if MPs actually try to have a say on anything such as having a vote on the final deal.
I can't see there being an election anytime soon (Why would May risk another kicking?) nor another referendum so we'll either slip into no deal chaos or more likely we'll take a "short term" compromise of joining the EEA while we "sort things out" which will suit no leavers and few remainers.
And so the mess will drag on and on.
Yeah, if people live in a safe seat it is a dilemma. Maybe when faced with that, people who don't support the incumbent, can view their vote not as a wasted vote but a positive token of encouragement for an individual. Another approach might be to say OK I'm not voting Tory or whoever and vote for the best of the rest. I reckon a degree of proportional representation in elections would help us all, this extreme on extreme business we have at the moment does not seem to have a prospect of working.
I can't stand Corbyn or Momentum. Corbyn reminds me of a 1980s sociology lecturer who loves to debate political theory but can't tie his own shoelaces.
He's hopeless at dealing with dissent in his own party and I'm sure he'd be a hopeless PM. It's testament to how poor a leader he is that Labour isn't doing better in the polls despite the Government being in disarray.
The most important aspect of the next election is preventing this madness. I could never vote for a Brexit supporting Labour MP and would even vote Tory if the alternative was a pro EU Conservative. I think those that see Brexit as potentially the biggest disaster to befall our country since the war might have to hold their noses and vote tactically.
I am a Corbyn supporter so don't exactly agree with the assertion that Corbyn would be a disaster. But Michael Heseltine said something to this effect a while back - Corbyn can be elected and make a mess of things and the economy can recover due to subsequent good conservative government, as has happened before. But the damage leaving the EU would be far more damaging.
That isn't to say Corbyn would necessarily win, but the next election has to be about Brexit, Brexit then Brexit. With enough voices in parliament, Corbyn would definitely not die in a ditch over a second referendum. The pro Brexiters in his party do not hold the same influence as the hard Brexiters in the Conservative party. Actually the pro remainers in the Labour party would have even more influence than the Brexiters have over May.
The most important aspect of the next election is preventing this madness. I could never vote for a Brexit supporting Labour MP and would even vote Tory if the alternative was a pro EU Conservative. I think those that see Brexit as potentially the biggest disaster to befall our country since the war might have to hold their noses and vote tactically.
I am a Corbyn supporter so don't exactly agree with the assertion that Corbyn would be a disaster. But Michael Heseltine said something to this effect a while back - Corbyn can be elected and make a mess of things and the economy can recover due to subsequent good conservative government, as has happened before. But the damage leaving the EU would be far more damaging.
That isn't to say Corbyn would necessarily win, but the next election has to be about Brexit, Brexit then Brexit. With enough voices in parliament, Corbyn would definitely not die in a ditch over a second referendum. The pro Brexiters in his party do not hold the same influence as the hard Brexiters in the Conservative party.
If I had to choose between Howey or Soubry tomorrow it would be Soubry in an instant. I can't believe it, but it's true.
@PragueAddick and @NornIrishAddick Whilst the Lisbon Treaty has no reference to revoking Article 50, there is a common understanding that under the 1969 Vienna convention on the law of treaties, a notification of leaving such as Article 50 can be revoked at any time before it takes effect. The irony of course is that the issue may well need to be resolved by the ECJ!
In any event, the political reality is that we should consider what events are required before revoking Article 50 can be considered. And this might be a second referendum (with an abort option), an election or... cannot think of anything else.
The paradox is that if Parliament had landed on a Customs Union mandate and then developed this into a Single Market membership debate for next month then we would be rapidly heading towards BINO. And once Parliament arrives at BINO, then the next question is why bother leaving?! Therefore May is tacking between Canada and BINO and perhaps hoping that M.Barnier helps steer through turbulent waters? If she tacks too close to BINO then the alt-right go mad and UKIP will jump from 8% to 15% as surely as night follows day and mostly at the expense of the Tory polling. And if she's heading for no deal then Parliament will respond accordingly.
That's why we have a deadline and why the EU27 have said all along that October is the optimum time to resolve since that allows six months to ratify. It won't be October and will be December if at all. By early 2019 we might find that the electorate are actually quite tempted by a handbrake turn aka revoking Article 50 since growth will have slowed and the cliff edge rapidly approaches. It's impossible to call right now but there will be many polls and many expert articles between now and Christmas.
Equally there will be those who seek to blame Corbyn for the antics of Cameron, Farage, Gove and Johnson but that just smacks of deflection. The reality is that Labour is actually run by the NEC who are in turn elected by the membership. Whether one agrees with Labour positions on the Customs Union, the Single Market and a second referendum or not, one can at least understand how they have evolved and where they might go by the end of 2018. Both Unite and Momentum are considering the topic of a second referendum.
On the other hand, May is still in zugzuang with any move likely to lead to conflict and subsequent loss of support in the polls and Parliament. The fundamentals have not changed since the end of Phase 1 of the negotiations - @seth plum has been right all along!
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You don't seem to have read what I have written.
I was talking about my fears and history. I don't agree with your claims that Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but I am not a particular fan either, mainly because of the Brexit stance.
How you reached your conclusion on a 'convenient place to deport people' I will never know. I was talking about far right groups recognising Israel, when in the past they hated it.
My fear is that it will be used against us in the future although at the moment what that fear is hasn't been revealed but the far right is involved in the long game, and that scares me. I thought that that would have been clear from my post as other respondents appear to have grasped it.
It just seemed odd to mention "recognising the state of Israel" in this context when the loudest voices shouting about it being an illegal state are from the Corbyn left. It is they and their racist, homophobic, misogynist "friends" in Hamas etc that want to destroy the state of Israel.
Not that we should ever forget or down play the racists on the right, either, they too are an existential threat, although reading much of what is posted on-line or heard in labour NEC meetings by Corbym supporters it is hard to tell if the parting is on the left or the right. They even share the same memes and cartoons and the same slurs about Rothchilds, world conspiracies, blood libels, controlling the media and we read Corbyn supporters saying "Hitler knew how to deal with the Jews".
But If I have misread what you said then I apologise.
Thank you for the apology.
I have highlighted above where I have used "recognising the nation state of Israel". It was used in the context of right wing Nationalists who were previously anti Jewish, now being pro a Jewish state. I was commenting on that and differentiating between Jews as a people and Israel as a state as they are clearly not the same thing and equally clearly I am damn sure that the right wing groups I mentioned would not be pro individual Jews.
I also used the term 'nation state' in deference to @kentaddick who has asked for the state of Israel as it is, the people of Israel and Jewish people outside of Israel not to be conflated.
The most important aspect of the next election is preventing this madness. I could never vote for a Brexit supporting Labour MP and would even vote Tory if the alternative was a pro EU Conservative. I think those that see Brexit as potentially the biggest disaster to befall our country since the war might have to hold their noses and vote tactically.
I am a Corbyn supporter so don't exactly agree with the assertion that Corbyn would be a disaster. But Michael Heseltine said something to this effect a while back - Corbyn can be elected and make a mess of things and the economy can recover due to subsequent good conservative government, as has happened before. But the damage leaving the EU would be far more damaging.
That isn't to say Corbyn would necessarily win, but the next election has to be about Brexit, Brexit then Brexit. With enough voices in parliament, Corbyn would definitely not die in a ditch over a second referendum. The pro Brexiters in his party do not hold the same influence as the hard Brexiters in the Conservative party.
If I had to choose between Howey or Soubry tomorrow it would be Soubry in an instant. I can't believe it, but it's true.
Corbyn has always accepted Israel's right to exist but qualified it that under it's original borders. That may not be particularly pro semitic but it is hardly anti semitic. He is highly critical of Israel, and that has allowed him to be soft on people within the party who are genuinely anti semitic. The jewish community have been angered by his reluctance to address this over a significant period of time and now the fires are being stoked.
he's just a very poor leader. He's had multiple oppurtunities to show his leadership and make difficult decisions and he's shirked at all of them. Yet some how he's still labour leader. Hell, i'm starting to think mccdonnell would make a better leader than him.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
We’re reaching an interesting phase of Brexit now. Lots of scenarios being suggested and as a staunch remainer I cling to the hope that Brexit is reversed.
However. I’m beginning to think that scenario is now more likely under Teresa May and the conservatives than if she was forced to call a general election as a result of a vote of no confidence as per the posts above and the result meant that Corbyn came to power. Corbyn is a brexiteer. He just hasn’t got the courage to say it. That tells me all I need to know about the man and the reason I can’t vote for him.
i think corbyn's done now after all this anti semitism
Labour has a problem with bigoted cranks in the party but when you find yourself actually saying this, the right-wing media have done a full number on you
I have been walking round singing 'oh tommy tommy, tommy tommy tommy tommy robinson' and I did wonder why
He's been advising Corbyn.
Oddly enough both the EDL and far right parties in Italy (and possibly the Front Nationale in France) are very pro Benjamin Netanyahu and the nation state of Israel. Rather than bringing me any comfort this actually scares me.
1. Is it just a beard to hide/disguise their true selves? 2. Is it fueled by Islamophobia i.e. does it piss off Muslims or is the enemy of my enemy my friend? 3. Is it the end of days/Jews in Jerusalem/God returning scenario beloved by British Christians (Balfour) in the late 19th/early 20th and USA Christians today? 4. Is it just recognition of a nationalist government, like they want to be? 5. Or is it combination of the above?
Whatever it is, it worries me. Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel we/Jews are being used as human shields for Nationalists and recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future. Should the need arise, so to speak.
I am also worried about Jews being used to attack the left, historically it has never ended well for us/Jews we when this has happened.
The first concentration camp was Dachau, originally built soon after Hitler came to power for political enemies of the state who were Communists and Social Democrats. After a while Jewish political enemies were interned there but treated even worse and then other groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses.
So for me the template is to destroy those who are organised and will stand against you then you have a clear run at the real target. I worry this is what is happening.
And yet you don't see that Willsmen, Corbyn, etc etc etc etc are not only complicit in this but actively encouraging it.
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
You make some good points,which I agree with, but to the best of my knowledge you are not Jewish. I always feel it is good to cut Jewish people some slack if they sometimes seem paranoid. Especially those I know and like and have helped me out in the past.
Anyway, there is, or was, another thread for this theme.
Why would you assume that and why are Jewish people more "paranoid" than any other group?
Seriously?
Actually don't bother. This thread is about Brexit.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
Nonsense.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
Corbyn has always accepted Israel's right to exist but qualified it that under it's original borders. That may not be particularly pro semitic but it is hardly anti semitic. He is highly critical of Israel, and that has allowed him to be soft on people within the party who are genuinely anti semitic. The jewish community have been angered by his reluctance to address this over a significant period of time and now the fires are being stoked.
he's just a very poor leader. He's had multiple oppurtunities to show his leadership and make difficult decisions and he's shirked at all of them. Yet some how he's still labour leader. Hell, i'm starting to think mccdonnell would make a better leader than him.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
Nonsense.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
Bollocks they are so vague. Treat them differently from a similar country in a similar situation and other crap. Eg if they shoot 100s of protesters and another country shoots 2, are we supposed to treat them the same? All about context.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
Nonsense.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
Bollocks they are so vague. Treat them differently from a similar country in a similar situation and other crap. Eg if they shoot 100s of protesters and another country shoots 2, are we supposed to treat them the same? All about context.
But wasn't the IHRA definition adopted in full and is now Labour Party policy? I thought the only difference was that one of the examples had been changed and extended to make it legally applicable. Also some additional stuff was added as legal text so that people who broke the rules could be sacked/expelled as previously the definition could be challenged under free speech that trumps it as a higher law. An all party commons home affairs committee had the same misgivings in 2016.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
Nonsense.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
Bollocks they are so vague. Treat them differently from a similar country in a similar situation and other crap. Eg if they shoot 100s of protesters and another country shoots 2, are we supposed to treat them the same? All about context.
But wasn't the IHRA definition adopted in full and is now Labour Party policy? I thought the only difference was that one of the examples had been changed and extended to make it legally applicable. Also some additional stuff was added as legal text so that people who broke the rules could be sacked/expelled as previously the definition could be challenged under free speech that trumps it as a higher law. An all party commons home affairs committee had the same misgivings in 2016.
I think there would be worldwide acceptance of the State of Israel if it returned to its environs as defined by the two UN resolutions. Many of Corbyn's critics want not only acceptance of the borders as they exist now but reserve the right to expand further using armed supremacy. They also want to stiffle any criticism of Israel, hence the 11 appendixes linked to IHRA, 7 of which hamstring any slanging of this incidious regime.
Nonsense.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
Bollocks they are so vague. Treat them differently from a similar country in a similar situation and other crap. Eg if they shoot 100s of protesters and another country shoots 2, are we supposed to treat them the same? All about context.
But wasn't the IHRA definition adopted in full and is now Labour Party policy? I thought the only difference was that one of the examples had been changed and extended to make it legally applicable. Also some additional stuff was added as legal text so that people who broke the rules could be sacked/expelled as previously the definition could be challenged under free speech that trumps it as a higher law. An all party commons home affairs committee had the same misgivings in 2016.
Comments
The EDL back Israel to annoy Muslims, the Corbyn left attacks Israel to pander to the "anti-Western" hate groups like Hamas and because they see everything as pro or anti America.
Meanwhile any half decent Labour leader would be 10 or 15 points ahead in the polls because the Tories are a complete shambles. But Corbyn, an avid Brexiter all his political life, can't lay a glove on them. He whipped his MPs to back the article 50 vote, disappeared during the referendum and is now sinking in an anti-semetic quagmire of his own making because he put his personal loyalties and own causes ahead of the good of his party or the country.
As for "recognising the nation state of Israel means there is a convenient place to deport people to in the future." I can't believe that I just read that. I really hope your not saying that the reason the Labour/Socialist Worker/Corbyn left don't like/don't want to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist is that doing so would mean so imaginary future government could deport people there?
My only take on this at the moment is to look your constituency candidates in the eye and weigh each one up.
Corbyn is a pragmatic remainer whilst being a Brexiter by instinct. People can say he isn't but he is. He dislikes many elements of EU influence and policy on the social side, but appreciates we are too closely intertwined not to suffer significant economic hardship by leaving.
but have a good local MP in Bob Neil (good)
who voted remain and was later branded a traitor by the Mail (good for him)
So while I'm happy with him as my MP I've never voted conservative and don't mean to start now. Can't vote for the antisemitism apologist and friend of terrorists Corbyn lead labour party (although I have voted Labour in the past) so will have to see who else is on the ballot paper.
I was torn at the referendum between parliamentary sovereignty if we left (good) v the unknown future and vague land of milk and honey promises out of the EU (bad) so I voted remain.
It's turned out that the land of milk and honey didn't really exist (as I thought it wouldn't) and parliamentary sovereignty is already being diminished by the constant "will of the people" cries if MPs actually try to have a say on anything such as having a vote on the final deal.
I can't see there being an election anytime soon (Why would May risk another kicking?) nor another referendum so we'll either slip into no deal chaos or more likely we'll take a "short term" compromise of joining the EEA while we "sort things out" which will suit no leavers and few remainers.
And so the mess will drag on and on.
I was talking about my fears and history. I don't agree with your claims that Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but I am not a particular fan either, mainly because of the Brexit stance.
How you reached your conclusion on a 'convenient place to deport people' I will never know. I was talking about far right groups recognising Israel, when in the past they hated it.
My fear is that it will be used against us in the future although at the moment what that fear is hasn't been revealed but the far right is involved in the long game, and that scares me. I thought that that would have been clear from my post as other respondents appear to have grasped it.
Anyway, there is, or was, another thread for this theme.
My opinion of Corbyn is based upon what I see of the man and based upon his policies.
Brexit is the single biggest crisis this country has faced since the end of the Second World War. I wanted Labour to come out and be fully opposed to leaving the eu. I understand given the referendum demographic that was always going to be difficult but Corbyn didn’t campaign to remain and has shown me precious little to make me think he is anything other than a complete brexiteer. He wants the Tories to complete Brexit and then hopes to pick up the pieces. In my view he is a coward, a hypocrite and untrustworthy.
The quality of his front bench is frighteningly abysmal with the odd exception. His power base of a Unite and Momentum have a stranglehold on the party and centre left moderates are being squeezed and bullied.
I have a good local MP in Clive Efford but at the moment I’m struggling to even give him my support.
Never said this before but my vote is up for grabs to whatever party looks like getting Brexit scrapped or minimises the impact of leaving.
Not that we should ever forget or down play the racists on the right, either, they too are an existential threat, although reading much of what is posted on-line or heard in labour NEC meetings by Corbym supporters it is hard to tell if the parting is on the left or the right. They even share the same memes and cartoons and the same slurs about Rothchilds, world conspiracies, blood libels, controlling the media and we read Corbyn supporters saying "Hitler knew how to deal with the Jews".
But If I have misread what you said then I apologise.
Another approach might be to say OK I'm not voting Tory or whoever and vote for the best of the rest.
I reckon a degree of proportional representation in elections would help us all, this extreme on extreme business we have at the moment does not seem to have a prospect of working.
He's hopeless at dealing with dissent in his own party and I'm sure he'd be a hopeless PM. It's testament to how poor a leader he is that Labour isn't doing better in the polls despite the Government being in disarray.
I am a Corbyn supporter so don't exactly agree with the assertion that Corbyn would be a disaster. But Michael Heseltine said something to this effect a while back - Corbyn can be elected and make a mess of things and the economy can recover due to subsequent good conservative government, as has happened before. But the damage leaving the EU would be far more damaging.
That isn't to say Corbyn would necessarily win, but the next election has to be about Brexit, Brexit then Brexit. With enough voices in parliament, Corbyn would definitely not die in a ditch over a second referendum. The pro Brexiters in his party do not hold the same influence as the hard Brexiters in the Conservative party. Actually the pro remainers in the Labour party would have even more influence than the Brexiters have over May.
In any event, the political reality is that we should consider what events are required before revoking Article 50 can be considered. And this might be a second referendum (with an abort option), an election or... cannot think of anything else.
The paradox is that if Parliament had landed on a Customs Union mandate and then developed this into a Single Market membership debate for next month then we would be rapidly heading towards BINO. And once Parliament arrives at BINO, then the next question is why bother leaving?! Therefore May is tacking between Canada and BINO and perhaps hoping that M.Barnier helps steer through turbulent waters? If she tacks too close to BINO then the alt-right go mad and UKIP will jump from 8% to 15% as surely as night follows day and mostly at the expense of the Tory polling. And if she's heading for no deal then Parliament will respond accordingly.
That's why we have a deadline and why the EU27 have said all along that October is the optimum time to resolve since that allows six months to ratify. It won't be October and will be December if at all. By early 2019 we might find that the electorate are actually quite tempted by a handbrake turn aka revoking Article 50 since growth will have slowed and the cliff edge rapidly approaches. It's impossible to call right now but there will be many polls and many expert articles between now and Christmas.
Equally there will be those who seek to blame Corbyn for the antics of Cameron, Farage, Gove and Johnson but that just smacks of deflection. The reality is that Labour is actually run by the NEC who are in turn elected by the membership. Whether one agrees with Labour positions on the Customs Union, the Single Market and a second referendum or not, one can at least understand how they have evolved and where they might go by the end of 2018. Both Unite and Momentum are considering the topic of a second referendum.
On the other hand, May is still in zugzuang with any move likely to lead to conflict and subsequent loss of support in the polls and Parliament. The fundamentals have not changed since the end of Phase 1 of the negotiations - @seth plum has been right all along!
I have highlighted above where I have used "recognising the nation state of Israel". It was used in the context of right wing Nationalists who were previously anti Jewish, now being pro a Jewish state. I was commenting on that and differentiating between Jews as a people and Israel as a state as they are clearly not the same thing and equally clearly I am damn sure that the right wing groups I mentioned would not be pro individual Jews.
I also used the term 'nation state' in deference to @kentaddick who has asked for the state of Israel as it is, the people of Israel and Jewish people outside of Israel not to be conflated.
Actually don't bother. This thread is about Brexit.
Nothing in the full IHRA definition hamstrings criticism the actions of Israel.
That has been explained again and again but the Corbynistas can't accept that because Corbyn and most of his cronies would fall foul of the definition.
Meanwhile, Brexit continues almost unopposed by Labour and May gets an easy ride from the so called opposition.
This gives a good overview https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/antisemitism-ihra-definition-jewish-writers
Anti-Semites?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-conservative-party-rulebook-doesnt-mention-antisemitism
Although this says that they have now added a line.
https://evolvepolitics.com/theresa-may-lied-the-tories-have-not-adopted-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism-in-their-rulebook/
In red near the end of the article. I can't vouch for evolve politics but C4 are pretty mainstream.