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Extension of ULEZ to South Circular

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    MrOneLung said:
    Not at all. Just highlighting the hypocrisy 
    Given your CL name I’d have thought you’d be in favour of cleaner air. 
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    MrOneLung said:
    ‘these cars are evil and must be banned - unless you pay us some cash - then you are fine, carry on, nothing to see here’  
    They said exactly the same about raising taxation on tobacco. But it (gradually) worked. 
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    iainment said:
    iainment said:
    I welcome the expansion, indeed it shouldn’t be down to local politicians. There should be 100% of roads nationally  subject to this.
    So, anyone who is unfortunate enough to own a diesel registered before September 2015 will have to pay £12.50 a day just to have it on the road…..which includes parking on a public road!
    Their car will become worthless overnight.
    I don’t think you’ve thought this through Iain.🙄

    Bring it in gradually with notice. As the old saying goes you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg.

    Certainly in most big cities most people don’t need a car.
    To be fair, there's a massive difference between inner London with its high frequency public transport and cramped streets, and outer London boroughs like Bexley and Bromley. 
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    iainment said:
    iainment said:
    I welcome the expansion, indeed it shouldn’t be down to local politicians. There should be 100% of roads nationally  subject to this.
    So, anyone who is unfortunate enough to own a diesel registered before September 2015 will have to pay £12.50 a day just to have it on the road…..which includes parking on a public road!
    Their car will become worthless overnight.
    I don’t think you’ve thought this through Iain.🙄

    Bring it in gradually with notice. As the old saying goes you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg.

    Certainly in most big cities most people don’t need a car.
    To be fair, there's a massive difference between inner London with its high frequency public transport and cramped streets, and outer London boroughs like Bexley and Bromley. 
    How did people manage before cars were “essential “?
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    Still waiting on all those saving pubs cos now they can go in without smoke. All that is changed is that more pubs have become gastro (ones that are still left) and kids are allowed to run riot. Old man rant.

    Anyway like fags no one can afford petrol or disal at today's prices of 1.60 a litre so Khan has had a touch. Fucks my cousins company up though. Ah well.
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    Go electric! Cos it's that easy Phil oakley
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    Why no ban on wood burners within the ULEZ 
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    I couldn't live without my car. I have one electric for work but as for my personal car which is petrol and ulez compliant I wouldn't be switching to electric anytime soon especially if you haven't got a driveway.

    Must be a nightmare if you can't charge from home. Honestly can't see how every vehicle going electric is going to work unless the infrastructure gets ramped up a notch or 10.
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    Huskaris said:
    JamesSeed said:
    I see this as similar to the banning of smoking in public places, and the increasing tax levies on tobacco. Seems draconian at first, but you gradually get used to it, and it turns out to be a good thing. 
    Absolutely this really. 

    You have faints of the vapours when it's announced, realise it isn't so bad when it comes in, and then, a couple of years later, look back in disbelief at what used to be common. I can't imagine walking into a smoke filled pub, or asking to go to the non smoking area of a restaurant again, a different era. 

    I understand people getting upset about their cars no longer being allowed/being charged for, but unfortunately these people are swimming against the tide, the modern day luddites. 

    Even if you don't believe in climate change, this is about the air quality within London. People are undoubtedly dying, to the extent it has been mentioned on a child's death certificate, not from climate change, but from the disgusting quality of air in London. 

    Khan is absolutely correct on this, as well as Silvertown, and history will prove him right.
    Yeah but you couldn’t pay an extra fiver to rock up in the pub and carry on smoking whilst those that could not afford to had to stand out in the rain 
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    MrOneLung said:
    ‘these cars are evil and must be banned - unless you pay us some cash - then you are fine, carry on, nothing to see here’  
    It's a fair point except that the Mayor has no power to stop non-compliant cars from using the public highway. Charging is the only way to do this. And the charge couldn't be so high as to amount to an effective ban or it would almost certainly be overturned by the courts.
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    I couldn't live without my car. I have one electric for work but as for my personal car which is petrol and ulez compliant I wouldn't be switching to electric anytime soon especially if you haven't got a driveway.

    Must be a nightmare if you can't charge from home. Honestly can't see how every vehicle going electric is going to work unless the infrastructure gets ramped up a notch or 10.
    I live in a street of Victorian terraced houses in Battersea, and more and more electric cars are being bought by residents. Some charge them from fittings on lamp posts, whereas others run a cable out from a charge box fitted outside their house. They have to put a mat (or cable duct ) over the cable on the pavement. It's not really a massive deal, once it's set up. And every time you charge your car it saves you money.

    'There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations. Be aware there could be restrictions such as a set period of time or a requiring a purchase in-store, so it's best to check.'

    It seems to cost around £10 to £15 to charge your car at home at the moment. Compared to petrol that's very cheap.
    No road tax to pay either.
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    At the moment JS
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    Batteries are getting better and cheaper by the year, but £9k for a new Tesla battery after 10-15 years is something to consider, though most manufacturers offer a reasonable warranty for 8 years.
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    MrOneLung said:
    Huskaris said:
    JamesSeed said:
    I see this as similar to the banning of smoking in public places, and the increasing tax levies on tobacco. Seems draconian at first, but you gradually get used to it, and it turns out to be a good thing. 
    Absolutely this really. 

    You have faints of the vapours when it's announced, realise it isn't so bad when it comes in, and then, a couple of years later, look back in disbelief at what used to be common. I can't imagine walking into a smoke filled pub, or asking to go to the non smoking area of a restaurant again, a different era. 

    I understand people getting upset about their cars no longer being allowed/being charged for, but unfortunately these people are swimming against the tide, the modern day luddites. 

    Even if you don't believe in climate change, this is about the air quality within London. People are undoubtedly dying, to the extent it has been mentioned on a child's death certificate, not from climate change, but from the disgusting quality of air in London. 

    Khan is absolutely correct on this, as well as Silvertown, and history will prove him right.
    Yeah but you couldn’t pay an extra fiver to rock up in the pub and carry on smoking whilst those that could not afford to had to stand out in the rain 
    Ironically, those that "couldn't afford to" would be the most protected by the legislation. 

    Smoking levels in the UK are at historic lows, banning smoking in public places is a huge part of that. 

    The stupidity of humans is that they are happy to commit a slow suicide (myself included), smoking inflicts that on other people as well, the smoking ban is probably one of the greatest public health moves any government had ever made.

    Smoking, like driving around in a polluting car, effects people other than you, that's an example of market failure, the way to redress that is through tolls and charges. 

    I really dont like Khan, a ratty spiv, but he is absolutely right on this. You don't have the right to effect other people's lives, unless you are willing to pay.
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    edited March 2022
    JamesSeed said:
    I couldn't live without my car. I have one electric for work but as for my personal car which is petrol and ulez compliant I wouldn't be switching to electric anytime soon especially if you haven't got a driveway.

    Must be a nightmare if you can't charge from home. Honestly can't see how every vehicle going electric is going to work unless the infrastructure gets ramped up a notch or 10.
    I live in a street of Victorian terraced houses in Battersea, and more and more electric cars are being bought by residents. Some charge them from fittings on lamp posts, whereas others run a cable out from a charge box fitted outside their house. They have to put a mat (or cable duct ) over the cable on the pavement. It's not really a massive deal, once it's set up. And every time you charge your car it saves you money.

    'There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations. Be aware there could be restrictions such as a set period of time or a requiring a purchase in-store, so it's best to check.'

    It seems to cost around £10 to £15 to charge your car at home at the moment. Compared to petrol that's very cheap.
    No road tax to pay either.
    I have a home charger and it's incredibly cheap st the minute. £1.20 gets me 55 miles and about 6 hours of driving. I can't complain about that.

    Street charging in town on the rapid chargers costs between £8 to £10 to get the same.

    While running a cable out of your house across the pavement with a bit of carpet isn't a massive deal to you, I'm sure it is a bigger deal to the blind walking along that pavement.
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    cblock said:
    At the moment JS
    Yeah, price of electricity is rising, but petrol and diesel will too, probably by more. 
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    JamesSeed said:
    I couldn't live without my car. I have one electric for work but as for my personal car which is petrol and ulez compliant I wouldn't be switching to electric anytime soon especially if you haven't got a driveway.

    Must be a nightmare if you can't charge from home. Honestly can't see how every vehicle going electric is going to work unless the infrastructure gets ramped up a notch or 10.
    I live in a street of Victorian terraced houses in Battersea, and more and more electric cars are being bought by residents. Some charge them from fittings on lamp posts, whereas others run a cable out from a charge box fitted outside their house. They have to put a mat (or cable duct ) over the cable on the pavement. It's not really a massive deal, once it's set up. And every time you charge your car it saves you money.

    'There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations. Be aware there could be restrictions such as a set period of time or a requiring a purchase in-store, so it's best to check.'

    It seems to cost around £10 to £15 to charge your car at home at the moment. Compared to petrol that's very cheap.
    No road tax to pay either.
    I have a home charger and it's incredibly cheap st the minute. £1.20 gets me 55 miles and about 6 hours of driving. I can't complain about that.

    Street charging in town on the rapid chargers costs between £8 to £10 to get the same.

    While running a cable out of your house across the pavement with a bit of carpet isn't a massive deal to you, I'm sure it is a bigger deal to the blind walking along that pavement.
    The mats they use are rubber, and blind people are pretty adept at not tripping over stuff like that. 
    But agree, it’s not ideal. All I’m saying though is that at least some people don’t see not having a drive as a reason for not buying electric cars. And I think the charging infrastructure is improving all the time. Haven’t got an EV myself btw. Not yet at least. 
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    Well the average service station on the motorways from London to Devon have two charging points. 

    I know as I have a fully electric car and have had to wait an hour at services to charge my car to continue my journey. 

    Then have had to get up in morning, leave my holiday park, and drive 10 miles to a supermarket to use their chargers as the infrastructure is shit so don’t expect people with no drives to be grabbing electric cars any time soon. 
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    edited March 2022
    Hmm, I just think if you haven't got a driveway and every vehicle along your street becomes an ev then the picture below isn't the way forward, not to mention you have to hope you get a space directly outside your front door. Imagine a wheelchair going along the pavement having to go other these constant bumps.


    I know about the lamp post charging and that isn't a bad idea but once many more residents down your street gets an ev then good luck getting a space for one when you may desperately need a charge. Thankfully infrastructure and the tech to charge vehicles can only get better 🤞
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    MrWalker said:
    Why no ban on wood burners within the ULEZ 

    I'm sure that will come, or at least some kind of compulsory chimney filter system or cleaner fuel requirement.


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    IdleHans said:
    MrWalker said:
    Why no ban on wood burners within the ULEZ 

    I'm sure that will come, or at least some kind of compulsory chimney filter system or cleaner fuel requirement.


    There is a clean air act that gives councils the power to act on wood burners that emit smoke
    above the prescribed limits. It’s just not enforced.
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    iainment said:
    IdleHans said:
    MrWalker said:
    Why no ban on wood burners within the ULEZ 

    I'm sure that will come, or at least some kind of compulsory chimney filter system or cleaner fuel requirement.


    There is a clean air act that gives councils the power to act on wood burners that emit smoke
    above the prescribed limits. It’s just not enforced.
    I think it's not just about visible smoke and I suspect, not having done any research, that the prescribed limits don't deal with the fine particles that are the biggest problem. I admit that I have a woodburner (I live well outside London in a semi rural area) and only use decent dry hardwood checked with a moisture meter before it goes on, so there's never discernible smoke from the chimney. However, it may well be chucking out these fine particles in their droves - theres remarkably little ash left in the stove when the logs have burned away, so the rest must have gone up and out of the chimney. I dont know how practical a chimney filter might be (probably not very) but further restriction on the use of these things at least in city areas seems likely to me. Policing it, of course, is another question. 
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    IdleHans said:
    iainment said:
    IdleHans said:
    MrWalker said:
    Why no ban on wood burners within the ULEZ 

    I'm sure that will come, or at least some kind of compulsory chimney filter system or cleaner fuel requirement.


    There is a clean air act that gives councils the power to act on wood burners that emit smoke
    above the prescribed limits. It’s just not enforced.
    I think it's not just about visible smoke and I suspect, not having done any research, that the prescribed limits don't deal with the fine particles that are the biggest problem. I admit that I have a woodburner (I live well outside London in a semi rural area) and only use decent dry hardwood checked with a moisture meter before it goes on, so there's never discernible smoke from the chimney. However, it may well be chucking out these fine particles in their droves - theres remarkably little ash left in the stove when the logs have burned away, so the rest must have gone up and out of the chimney. I dont know how practical a chimney filter might be (probably not very) but further restriction on the use of these things at least in city areas seems likely to me. Policing it, of course, is another question. 

    Guidance for wood burning in London

    COVID-19 and wood burning: pollution from wood burning stoves and garden bonfires damages people’s health, particularly if they have an underlying respiratory condition which may make them more vulnerable to COVID-19. Please consider your neighbours and do not burn your garden waste. 

    Air pollution affects the health of everyone in London. Along with emissions from transport and construction, burning wood and other solid fuels also contribute to this air pollution problem.

    Why is wood burning a problem?

    The main pollutant emitted by burning solid fuels like wood is ultra-fine particulate matter, also known as PM2.5. It's not visible to the naked eye, so even 'smokeless' fuels and appliances may be causing pollution. PM2.5 is widely acknowledged as being the air pollutant which has the greatest impact on human health. Both short and long-term exposure to PM2.5 increase the risk of early deaths from respiratory and cardiovascular diseases as well as increased hospital admissions. 

    Children growing up exposed to PM2.5 are more likely to have reduced lung function and can develop asthma. Current evidence suggests there is no safe level of PM2.5.

    How much of this PM2.5 is due to wood burning?

    Government statistics show that domestic wood burning accounted for as much as 38 per cent of PM2.5 emissions in 2019. PM2.5 emissions from domestic wood burning have more than doubled between 2003 and 2019 (from 20 to 41 thousand tonnes). Domestic wood burning has become the single biggest source of small particle air pollution in the UK, producing three times more than road traffic.

    A recent report from the European Environment Bureau showed that even Euro-certified 'Eco-stoves' produce 750 times more PM2.5 per unit of energy produced than a modern HGV. 

    Our latest data shows that in 2019, 17 per cent of London’s particulate matter pollution can be attributed to domestic wood burning (LAEI, 2019), which it's s why controlling wood burning is an important urban issue.

    What should I do about it?

    Choosing what you burn and how you burn it can make a big difference to the pollution it creates. Reducing the personal pollution you and your household are exposed to from domestic burning is crucial to maintaining long-term health and reducing the risk of respiratory and cardiovascular diseases. The best way to reduce your exposure is to reduce the amount you burn.

    If you’re on a low income and burning solid fuel is your primary source of heating, you may be eligible for free heating, insulation and ventilation improvements under the Mayor’s Warmer Homes Programme.

    Stoves and fireplaces:

    Open fireplaces are the most polluting way to burn solid fuels and pose the greatest risk to health and so should be avoided.

    From January 2022 all new wood burning stoves will have to meet new EcoDesign standards. The clearSkies  emissions and efficiency certification scheme for stoves goes even further than EcoDesign requirements. If you're planning to replace your wood burning stove or open fireplace with another wood burner we recommend purchasing a clearSkies level 5 product. But remember, wood burners can be the least efficient way of heating your home and any wood burning will cause pollution emissions.

    If you do have a stove or fireplace it should be properly maintained, and your chimney should be swept regularly.

    Types of fuel:

    Since 1 May 2021, the Air Quality Solid Fuel regulations have come into force restricting the sale of wet wood and bituminous coal. A list of authorised fuels can be found on the Defra website.

    Usually wood that has been kiln dried or seasoned to have a lower moisture content will be much less polluting, as much as 50 per cent less pollution than emitted from burning fresh logs. Drier wood is also more efficient, producing more heat per log and less likely to cause a chimney fire.

    Wood that has the Woodsure Ready to Burnlabel is certified to have a low moisture content, for a full list of suppliers see the list on the Woodsure website.

    You should not burn old pallets, furniture or scrap wood as it may contain contaminants that can be harmful to your health and the environment.

    It is important to store your fuels correctly to make sure your wood and briquettes do not get damp from the rain or damp in the ground. 

    Coal and briquettes:

    Coal burning factories contributed to the Great Smog of London in 1952 where thousands of lives were lost. In response, parliament passed the Clean Air Act of 1956, which restricted the burning of coal in urban areas and authorised local councils to set up smoke-free zones. It is against the law to burn coal in London. Burning coal and briquettes also contributes to human-induced climate change.

    What is the Mayor doing about it?

    Existing rules to control air pollution from wood burning are enforced by local authorities. The Mayor currently does not have powers to control or reduce pollution from this source, but has continued to lobby government on this subject. The London Environment Strategy sets out the additional powers required by the Mayor to tackle PM2.5 from non-transport sources and achieve the interim WHO target for concentrations of PM2.5 in the air by 2030 (10ug m-3). This includes: reforming the Clean Air Act to set tighter emission limits for wood burning stoves, providing authorities with stronger enforcement powers in smoke control zones, setting minimum emission standards for new wood burning stoves sold in London and more.

    In September 2021 The World Health Organization (WHO) announced changes to their guideline air quality limits. The annual PM2.5 limit has reduced from 10ug/m3 to 5ug/m3. The Mayor’s current ambition is to meet the interim 10ug/m3 target for PM2.5 by 2030. We will undertake some analysis to help us understand when we might be able to achieve the new tighter limits and assess what further action needs to take place at all levels of Government in order to work towards achieving these new health-based guidelines. In the meantime, the Mayor continues to work for a zero pollution city.

    King’s College London modelled the impact of these additional measures and results suggest that, if the Mayor had the additional powers set out in the London Environment Strategy, London can meet the interim WHO target for PM2.5 by 2030. However, without these additional powers and measures London won’t meet this threshold by 2030.

    Despite the limited powers the Mayor has to tackle non-road transport emissions, he has taken a number of actions to address PM2.5 emissions:

    • Establishing a local authority wood burning working group to work more closely with boroughs to raise awareness of the impacts of wood burning and to reduce emissions from solid fuels
    • Writing to all solid fuel suppliers in London to remind them about the new national regulations on permitted fuels, as well as providing some background on the health impacts of air pollution.
    • Developing training for boroughs in raising awareness of the impact of wood burning and improving enforcement of the new regulations
    • Working with Impact on Urban Health and Kantar to research ways to improve the messaging on the negative health impacts associated with wood burning.

    What does the law say?

    The Clean Air Act says that you must not emit smoke from your chimney if you live in a smoke control area. The Clean Air Act applies to all properties, including canal boats and house boats.

    The law also allows the Government to certify smokeless fuels and 'authorised appliances', which are expected not to emit dark smoke and can be used in smoke control areas.

    For more details about smoke control areas, smokeless fuels and authorised appliances please check the Government website

    The majority of London is covered by smoke control areas, but if you are not sure check with your local borough.

    Garden waste and barbecues

    Pollution from garden bonfires can be avoided and can be damaging to people’s health, particularly if they have an underlying respiratory condition. The current pandemic, when many people have taken the opportunity to tidy up their gardens at the same time that respiratory health is especially important, has only served to emphasise this point.  

    Many boroughs operate garden waste collection schemes, access to home composting or provide facilities to drop off waste. To find out how to dispose of your garden waste responsibly contact your local borough or read this advice from WRAP on home composting.

    Smoke from barbecues can also be unpleasant for other people. If you regularly have a barbecue in your garden, you should think about using a gas alternative or even an electric BBQ.

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    Major said:
    Less buses is not the solution to the climate crisis, bizarre comment
    I have to ask. What 'Climate crisis'?  Would that be the same as the 'Covid Crisis'? 
    Bunch of wankers guessing and scaring the crap out of everyone, so they'll do as they are told. Meanwhile, making gazillions for the usual suspects. Same shit different day.
    Got to LOL, right?
    At stupid, head-in-the-sands comments, yes. 
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    iainment said:
    iainment said:
    iainment said:
    I welcome the expansion, indeed it shouldn’t be down to local politicians. There should be 100% of roads nationally  subject to this.
    So, anyone who is unfortunate enough to own a diesel registered before September 2015 will have to pay £12.50 a day just to have it on the road…..which includes parking on a public road!
    Their car will become worthless overnight.
    I don’t think you’ve thought this through Iain.🙄

    Bring it in gradually with notice. As the old saying goes you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg.

    Certainly in most big cities most people don’t need a car.
    To be fair, there's a massive difference between inner London with its high frequency public transport and cramped streets, and outer London boroughs like Bexley and Bromley. 
    How did people manage before cars were “essential “?
    They didn’t go very far most of the time. 
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    Give it a few years and the £12.50 a day charge will be £15, then £20...
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    edited March 2022
    cafc999 said:
    Give it a few years and the £12.50 a day charge will be £15, then £20...
    But by then, I would imagine most of the non-compliant cars would have been disposed of.

    Whilst it doesn't affect us as our cars are compliant, I feel sorry for those it does. A lot of those will have bought diesel cars when the government promoted them and will now be stuck with them. It will affect people on lower incomes more as they may not be able to just go out and buy a new/compliant car.

    It's also nonsense to say that people don't need cars in this day and age. How many thousands use them to get to work where public transport options are either poor or non-existent?

    Once electric cars are used more widely used and the taxes generated by the motorist diminishes, you can bet your bottom dollar the "environmental tax" that they like to remind us all it is will conveniently go back to being a plain old road tax.
    Once most of the non-compliant have gone that's when they will increase the charge.

    How much is the congestion charge now compared to when it was first introduced?

    There will be a new charge for electric cars coming from disposing of the batteries.
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    They are only rushing this through, to make up the short fall from the predicted income from the south/north circular zone.   
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