Be interested to hear @Sage opinion around this as I know his opinion is valued, and he is a big JW fan, and always talks highly of him.
I've mentioned before that I don't necessarily rate him as highly, and have a neutral friend who have come to watch games with me and notes that he just seems to spend most of his time on the floor.
I think there's clearly talent there, especially with the ball at his feet. And when he has had a decent run of games - like at the beginning of last season - he did look dangerous.
However if he is not playing full games, or lots of minutes (which he rarely has for Charlton), then at the moment I'm really struggling to see what he adds to the squad.
After lockdown I know it was muted that he had not been doing the required running to get himself in a position to play full games. However now, either Bowyer just does not rate him, or the team is just not good enough as a whole so everyone is suffering, because on paper people would argue he should be running games for us in this league.
*Warning: post of Grapevine lengths incoming*
You’re right, I am a huge fan of Williams and believe that he is by far one of the best players in this league. I do believe he’s good enough for the Championship, as you pointed out, his form before his injury last season showed.
I’ve said it before, and we have had similar players over the last few years, Vetokele, Aneke, Williams... without a proper pre-season, he’ll struggle to begin with before he gets into his stride. Last season was the first time in years that Williams had a proper pre-season that meant he was then playing for his club. You cannot underestimate the importance of that period. It’s why I believe we will see a lot of injuries and inconsistencies this season. Across the board. The club’s who manage to keep the players fresh will be the one’s who do the best, even if they’re not the best team.
Right now, Bowyer, and supporters are right. I admit that too. Williams has not been good enough, impacted the games well enough, and contributed enough going forward to warrant starting. Am I surprised Bowyer has gone so publicly about it? Not at all. He can’t be seen giving ‘tough love’ to Bonne or Morgan for example but not to Williams. Bow only does and says these things to challenge the player, to make them realise they have to take responsibility and improve. As much as Williams may have found himself in troubled times before, there were reasons for it, unfortunate recurring injuries, loneliness, boredom, homesickness etc. This time, he’s settled, in love, at home, and at a club he knows and enjoys. He also has the target of the Euro’s next summer. Bowyer would’ve weighed it up and thought, well he’s now in the right environment, he has to start producing his quality more. The ball is firmly in Williams’ court. And I truly believe he is up for the challenge.
On the flip side, without the work behind the scenes fitness wise, without the regular minutes in competitive games, it’s very hard for him to start to influencing matches. We have really jumped a whole stage that is more important to some players in comparison to others. It’s almost like a catch 22 and I fear we will find ourselves in the same situation with Aneke.
Williams’ talent is not in question. Without him the other season, we wouldn’t have got promoted. I wholeheartedly believe that. But Bowyer is right, there is only so much work they can give him on the training ground to improve and start influencing the game high up the pitch or scoring or assisting more. He has to show it now.
I also know a lot of other people who do support other clubs, many of whom have pointed out Williams for his talent, his close control, awareness, and positional sense. We also know that Kalvin Phillips, and other Leeds players, as well as Bielsa singled out Williams for one of the best players they came up against last season. He has the ability, he needs consistency.
Much of the success also boils down to 3 main factors that hasn’t been discussed away from the obvious ones that spring to mind with Jonny.
1) the position he plays is so important. Having the ball in his own half or near the half way line is pointless. Get him higher up the pitch, running at players, finding pockets of space between the lines, that’s where he will hurt teams, especially in this league.
2) the type of football we play. He needs the ball to feet, but also often in front of him. It forces him to be positive rather than what you sometimes see him do a complete 360 before passing the ball. Playing it long when we haven’t got a striker to hold it like we used to, or into channels isn’t suited. Playing with attacking full backs is perfect for him, as it means he doesn’t have to feel he has to go wide and be that outlet. If you were to draw 4 lines vertically down the pitch from one end to the other, Williams is suited best in the spaces of line 1-2 and 3-4.
3) the players he has around him. Williams is effective when he has pace in the team, when he has players that mean he doesn’t have to track back 40 yards to try and win a tackle, when he has players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, and when he has players that MOVE. That’s a big one as much of the time, he will have the ball and others are just expecting him to do something with it without giving him the option by clever movement off the ball, runners going beyond him or creating space. We don’t do that enough.
And yes, he has a girlfriend, and some may say that could be a distraction. Knowing what I do, and it’s less than people probably think, but it would be the complete opposite and very unfair to assume it is playing a part on his game.
Behind closed doors, I am sure Williams and Bowyer will have a chat and he’ll know exactly where Bow is coming from, and exactly what he has to do or at least start looking like he is doing. Give him a bit more time, he will likely surprise us all and score soon.
Genuinely don't see what the fuss is most of the time, seems to draw a lot of fouls but doesn't score goals and doesn't get many assists either. Morgan, Oztumer, Aneke all play in similar positions and if we're looking at Maddison too then that suggests Bowyer is running out of patience. I hope for his sake he turns it around but I'm not holding out
Tough on Jonny, not sure if it's the right choice. We've seen that Jonny's confidence can easily be knocked and he likes to feel part of a family. Publicly criticising him and hauling him off early might not be the best plan, but maybe it will light a fire under him. We'll see
Hard to argue with Bowyer though.
He constantly gets talked up as being a championship player. He plays in a position where he should be getting 10-15 goals a season. It's been the story of his career. Terrifies defenders to death with absolutely zero end product.
Posted on the match thread.............
On the day he signed for us from Palace JW said that he doesnt score goals. Can't see why everyone is now so surprised.
And if you say that LB is coaching him now to do so then LB cant be much of a coach. He's been working with him for 18 months & still he hasn't scored.
Bowyer says it's not a fitness thing, but Williams never seems to last 90 minutes or complete a run of games. I think it makes a big difference, being a fixture in the team, rather than flitting in and out, trying desperately to make in impact in the limited time you have on the pitch. I'd like to judge him, once he's played 6-8 consecutive games, I think that would be fairer and more accurate.
Tough on Jonny, not sure if it's the right choice. We've seen that Jonny's confidence can easily be knocked and he likes to feel part of a family. Publicly criticising him and hauling him off early might not be the best plan, but maybe it will light a fire under him. We'll see
Hard to argue with Bowyer though.
He constantly gets talked up as being a championship player. He plays in a position where he should be getting 10-15 goals a season. It's been the story of his career. Terrifies defenders to death with absolutely zero end product.
Posted on the match thread.............
On the day he signed for us from Palace JW said that he doesnt score goals. Can't see why everyone is now so surprised.
And if you say that LB is coaching him now to do so then LB cant be much of a coach. He's been working with him for 18 months & still he hasn't scored.
Exactly, plus looking at his record of 4 goals in over 200 senior appearances for club and country would tell you he's never been a goalscorer. He's scored ONE GOAL since 2015!
The problem with JW is that he does not have that mental edge where he is going to push on. Anyone who's seen the Sunderland documentary will have noted that. If he was the hyper competitive type he'd probably be playing at a higher level. He seems quite content as he is. "Coasting" as someone else aptly put it on another thread.
Read the match threads when LB is bringing JW off the bench. What do people say? "Good move, should help us win some free kicks and take the pressure off." Or if we're losing, it's the same, "Should help us win some set pieces." That's all we've come to expect from JW.
Played his best football when our team was set with Cullen behind him, and he was chief creator with Connor and had Taylor up top. As a triangle they knew there would be an end product of goals and their confidence in play showed this.
JW knows he doesn't score goals and that our strikers won't take each chance he busts a gut to create, so instead it's clear he's just doing bits here and there (dribbles where shouldn't be and fouls).
As has been said, looking at his history and listening to the man's own words he's not a goal scorer, it shouldn't be such a shock. As a team that struggles to create chances and with no real midfield 'flair' I'd rather have Williams in it than out.
With Gilbey injured, our options are limited to:
Doughty - should get a few assists and goals Levitt - sounded promising, but a bit much to ask a 19 year old playing his first season to feed our attack to promotion. Oztumer - meh JFC - going backwards, no literally, now a wing back. Watson - still unsure of his playing style Aneke - clearly he's run over a few black cats and smashed every mirror he sees, just when he gets going has a set back. Should contribute IF he can make it on the pitch. Pratley - highly unlikely he's going to turn into Pirlo and start pinging beautiful balls from deep. Morgan - closest player to Williams, which also includes getting subbed on and off.
If he can't, no, if he won't score...stick him in the middle and not in the attacking third. Not AM not wide left or right. One side of Pratley in the 3, 1 of 2 in the diamond/ back 3 formations.
Well, at least until Gilbey's back/ a half decent box to box comes in...
Williams is a Championship player and a decent one at that. His fitness is a recurring issue and he needs the right level of players around him to shine. But I think he will be a very important player for us this season.
His goal scoring record is abysmal. He has skill so it surprises me that he is not better at taking free kicks. He earns enough of them, and if he was able to punish teams he would not get fouled as much, get more scoring opportunities and less injuries.
Interesting approach from Bowyer, assume it was designed to get a (positive) reaction from Williams when other methods have failed.
I have to say the goal scoring thing doesn’t bother me too much, I think he brings a lot and is the most talented player in our squad (maybe in the league?). I can’t help think that picking him intermittently and giving him a few minutes off the bench here and there isn’t the right approach to encourage consistency, but Bowyer knows far better than I.
Williams is a good player, but his skill is in his ability to trip over players legs, easing pressure and giving us dead ball opportunities.
He got 5 assists last season from 26 appearances, which is actually okay. The season before in League 1 he managed just 2. He has zero goals. For me it seems quite easy to believe another CAM player might have at least fluked a goal along with those assists...
He in his entire career only has 17 assists and 4 goals from 186 games... that's crap for CAM.
Our problem is that we have too many players that are struggling to make an impact both for the last 9 games of last season and the games so far this season. I would include Lapslie, Morgan, Forster-Caskey, Williams and Oztumer amongst those (plus Bonne, albeit in his case more related to the start of this season).
I know some have had injuries and some get limited minutes on the pitch in which to make an impact. But the fact remains that with a significant proportion of the players underperforming we badly need some turnover within the squad right now. The wage cap couldn't have come at a worst time for Charlton. Yes, it is the same for all clubs in League 1 but the combination of a lack of investment over the last couple of years and then the transfer embargo has left us behind the 8 ball just when we have an owner who might be willing to invest.
I wouldn't see it totally as clear cut as that. It must hinder us to a degree as it is designed to create a more level playing field, but there is still business that can be done and we can't be outbid by any of our direct rivals.
If we look at the senior players we have, I think most League One teams wouldn't say no.
His goal scoring record is abysmal. He has skill so it surprises me that he is not better at taking free kicks. He earns enough of them, and if he was able to punish teams he would not get fouled as much, get more scoring opportunities and less injuries.
It is. However it always has been. Bowyer knew that when he signed him up.....not once but twice. He doesn’t really get in enough goal scoring positions - off the top of my head I can only think of one at Birmingham away last season (but there must have been more).
He got 5 assists last season from 26 appearances, which is actually okay.
The season before in League 1 he managed just 2. He has zero goals. For me it seems quite easy to believe another CAM player might have at least fluked a goal along with those assists...
Although those 5 assists were in the first half-dozen or so games of the season, and was a good reason the team made the brilliant start - he then got injured for a long period soon after. No assists from his return until the end of the season though.
Mind you that's just bare statistics - and they usually only tell part of the story.
Reading between the lines, we did see mny situations where Jonny played a key role in goals scored: typically he provided the assist for the assist. No stats give credit for that - but those goalscoring chances wouldn't have been created without his vital contribution.
Another thing, stats only show assists for goals actually scored - but not those where goalscoring chances were created but missed. In effect, Jonny's assist record can also depend on the efficiency of team mates actually converting their chances.
Statistics, eh? "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
None of the above takes away from the fact that Williams' manager is frustrated by aspects of his game. If that's been flagged up, Jonny will know it's up to him.
I think he unsettles the midfield of opponents when he nips in a draws fouls. We need to play a bit higher and maybe he will do this in the penalty area/danger areas more. I am not a fan of keeping possession if you pass up opportunities to go forwards and go back because it is an easier option. This is not that risky in League One, where you can get the ball back more easily. Maybe when the squad improves we will be a bit more offensive minded. if so, I think this will help Williams a lot.
We seem to have a number of players in their final year, who all have something to prove really. If any of Williams, JFC, Oztumer, Aneke were to leave in the next 2 weeks, I don't think Bowyer would be too upset
His goal scoring record is abysmal. He has skill so it surprises me that he is not better at taking free kicks. He earns enough of them, and if he was able to punish teams he would not get fouled as much, get more scoring opportunities and less injuries.
Maddison signing could make Williams more important to the team. At last we have a player who can score from one.
Eddie Jones talks about players who are starters and finishers. I see Williams as a finisher (ironically), a player who can come on and give us control in the latter stages of a game.
Eddie Jones talks about players who are starters and finishers. I see Williams as a finisher (ironically), a player who can come on and give us control in the latter stages of a game.
A good point. It is a long season and a player as good as Williams is very likely to have an important part to play in it at some point.
Tough on Jonny, not sure if it's the right choice. We've seen that Jonny's confidence can easily be knocked and he likes to feel part of a family. Publicly criticising him and hauling him off early might not be the best plan, but maybe it will light a fire under him. We'll see
Hard to argue with Bowyer though.
He constantly gets talked up as being a championship player. He plays in a position where he should be getting 10-15 goals a season. It's been the story of his career. Terrifies defenders to death with absolutely zero end product.
Posted on the match thread.............
On the day he signed for us from Palace JW said that he doesnt score goals. Can't see why everyone is now so surprised.
And if you say that LB is coaching him now to do so then LB cant be much of a coach. He's been working with him for 18 months & still he hasn't scored.
You can teach someone all you like but if they don't want to listen or put the hours in to improve it ain't gonna happen.
'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'.
Comments
I’ve said it before, and we have had similar players over the last few years, Vetokele, Aneke, Williams... without a proper pre-season, he’ll struggle to begin with before he gets into his stride. Last season was the first time in years that Williams had a proper pre-season that meant he was then playing for his club. You cannot underestimate the importance of that period. It’s why I believe we will see a lot of injuries and inconsistencies this season. Across the board. The club’s who manage to keep the players fresh will be the one’s who do the best, even if they’re not the best team.
Right now, Bowyer, and supporters are right. I admit that too. Williams has not been good enough, impacted the games well enough, and contributed enough going forward to warrant starting. Am I surprised Bowyer has gone so publicly about it? Not at all. He can’t be seen giving ‘tough love’ to Bonne or Morgan for example but not to Williams. Bow only does and says these things to challenge the player, to make them realise they have to take responsibility and improve. As much as Williams may have found himself in troubled times before, there were reasons for it, unfortunate recurring injuries, loneliness, boredom, homesickness etc. This time, he’s settled, in love, at home, and at a club he knows and enjoys. He also has the target of the Euro’s next summer. Bowyer would’ve weighed it up and thought, well he’s now in the right environment, he has to start producing his quality more. The ball is firmly in Williams’ court. And I truly believe he is up for the challenge.
On the flip side, without the work behind the scenes fitness wise, without the regular minutes in competitive games, it’s very hard for him to start to influencing matches. We have really jumped a whole stage that is more important to some players in comparison to others. It’s almost like a catch 22 and I fear we will find ourselves in the same situation with Aneke.
Williams’ talent is not in question. Without him the other season, we wouldn’t have got promoted. I wholeheartedly believe that. But Bowyer is right, there is only so much work they can give him on the training ground to improve and start influencing the game high up the pitch or scoring or assisting more. He has to show it now.
I also know a lot of other people who do support other clubs, many of whom have pointed out Williams for his talent, his close control, awareness, and positional sense. We also know that Kalvin Phillips, and other Leeds players, as well as Bielsa singled out Williams for one of the best players they came up against last season. He has the ability, he needs consistency.
Much of the success also boils down to 3 main factors that hasn’t been discussed away from the obvious ones that spring to mind with Jonny.
1) the position he plays is so important. Having the ball in his own half or near the half way line is pointless. Get him higher up the pitch, running at players, finding pockets of space between the lines, that’s where he will hurt teams, especially in this league.
2) the type of football we play. He needs the ball to feet, but also often in front of him. It forces him to be positive rather than what you sometimes see him do a complete 360 before passing the ball. Playing it long when we haven’t got a striker to hold it like we used to, or into channels isn’t suited. Playing with attacking full backs is perfect for him, as it means he doesn’t have to feel he has to go wide and be that outlet. If you were to draw 4 lines vertically down the pitch from one end to the other, Williams is suited best in the spaces of line 1-2 and 3-4.
3) the players he has around him. Williams is effective when he has pace in the team, when he has players that mean he doesn’t have to track back 40 yards to try and win a tackle, when he has players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, and when he has players that MOVE. That’s a big one as much of the time, he will have the ball and others are just expecting him to do something with it without giving him the option by clever movement off the ball, runners going beyond him or creating space. We don’t do that enough.
And yes, he has a girlfriend, and some may say that could be a distraction. Knowing what I do, and it’s less than people probably think, but it would be the complete opposite and very unfair to assume it is playing a part on his game.
Behind closed doors, I am sure Williams and Bowyer will have a chat and he’ll know exactly where Bow is coming from, and exactly what he has to do or at least start looking like he is doing. Give him a bit more time, he will likely surprise us all and score soon.
On the day he signed for us from Palace JW said that he doesnt score goals. Can't see why everyone is now so surprised.
And if you say that LB is coaching him now to do so then LB cant be much of a coach. He's been working with him for 18 months & still he hasn't scored.
I think it makes a big difference, being a fixture in the team, rather than flitting in and out, trying desperately to make in impact in the limited time you have on the pitch.
I'd like to judge him, once he's played 6-8 consecutive games, I think that would be fairer and more accurate.
Read the match threads when LB is bringing JW off the bench. What do people say? "Good move, should help us win some free kicks and take the pressure off." Or if we're losing, it's the same, "Should help us win some set pieces." That's all we've come to expect from JW.
Fact is he needs to do a lot more.
JW knows he doesn't score goals and that our strikers won't take each chance he busts a gut to create, so instead it's clear he's just doing bits here and there (dribbles where shouldn't be and fouls).
As has been said, looking at his history and listening to the man's own words he's not a goal scorer, it shouldn't be such a shock. As a team that struggles to create chances and with no real midfield 'flair' I'd rather have Williams in it than out.
With Gilbey injured, our options are limited to:
Doughty - should get a few assists and goals
Levitt - sounded promising, but a bit much to ask a 19 year old playing his first season to feed our attack to promotion.
Oztumer - meh
JFC - going backwards, no literally, now a wing back.
Watson - still unsure of his playing style
Aneke - clearly he's run over a few black cats and smashed every mirror he sees, just when he gets going has a set back. Should contribute IF he can make it on the pitch.
Pratley - highly unlikely he's going to turn into Pirlo and start pinging beautiful balls from deep.
Morgan - closest player to Williams, which also includes getting subbed on and off.
If he can't, no, if he won't score...stick him in the middle and not in the attacking third. Not AM not wide left or right. One side of Pratley in the 3, 1 of 2 in the diamond/ back 3 formations.
Well, at least until Gilbey's back/ a half decent box to box comes in...
I have to say the goal scoring thing doesn’t bother me too much, I think he brings a lot and is the most talented player in our squad (maybe in the league?). I can’t help think that picking him intermittently and giving him a few
minutes off the bench here and there isn’t the right approach to encourage consistency, but Bowyer knows far better than I.
He got 5 assists last season from 26 appearances, which is actually okay. The season before in League 1 he managed just 2. He has zero goals. For me it seems quite easy to believe another CAM player might have at least fluked a goal along with those assists...
He in his entire career only has 17 assists and 4 goals from 186 games... that's crap for CAM.
A career in futsal awaits!
I know some have had injuries and some get limited minutes on the pitch in which to make an impact. But the fact remains that with a significant proportion of the players underperforming we badly need some turnover within the squad right now. The wage cap couldn't have come at a worst time for Charlton. Yes, it is the same for all clubs in League 1 but the combination of a lack of investment over the last couple of years and then the transfer embargo has left us behind the 8 ball just when we have an owner who might be willing to invest.
If we look at the senior players we have, I think most League One teams wouldn't say no.
No assists from his return until the end of the season though.
Mind you that's just bare statistics - and they usually only tell part of the story.
Reading between the lines, we did see mny situations where Jonny played a key role in goals scored: typically he provided the assist for the assist.
No stats give credit for that - but those goalscoring chances wouldn't have been created without his vital contribution.
Another thing, stats only show assists for goals actually scored - but not those where goalscoring chances were created but missed.
In effect, Jonny's assist record can also depend on the efficiency of team mates actually converting their chances.
Statistics, eh? "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
None of the above takes away from the fact that Williams' manager is frustrated by aspects of his game.
If that's been flagged up, Jonny will know it's up to him.
I remember last season at Reading away Williams was absolutely brilliant, but the team he was in at that time was a lot better.
Hopefully Bowyer can do another magic rebuild of a new team and Williams can slot in as well as he did before.
'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'.