So many football fans think they know how things work when they don't. The issue with Maddison is either he doesn't want to come to us or we are not offering him enough dosh in his eyes. A lot of clubs put offers in and know the player wants to join them. And it doesn't tend to take a long time from there.
I agree.
It’s also why I can’t get my head around ‘this doesn’t look great’ or ‘worrying that it hasn’t been done by now’ type comments. I get the anxiety to see bodies in, but I also think it’s worth remembering that ESI have officially been in charge for 13 days (I think). Yes, things would’ve been ‘discussed’ prior to them taking over, but the variables at play here are high in number
Southall first time being a chairman Bowyer’s stance on his contract ESI’s stance on his contract Players available and likely to move in Jan Our budget/wage structure what players other clubs are looking at (ie Maddison leaves posh, they need a replacemen) Who are our priorities Gallagher being unexpectedly recalled People waking up on the wrong side of the bed in the morning and so on
So many moving parts and the ignorance of the many (myself included), means for me, it’s best just to let it all play out at this stage
Liverpool want to speak to a Charlton player - from permission given to signing could be very quick!
Charlton want to speak to a Peterborough player - from permission given to signing could take forever, if ever.
Players and agents want to cover every single element of the contract from bonus structure, pension contribution level, company car choice, accommodation allowance, image rights, contract review process and on and on and on... Liverpool offer a Charlton player a contract and surprisingly they are not as bothered with that level of detail!
Professional footballers in general are very fragile people and want and expect everything to be done for them - some are more precious than others.
I understand the Blackpool striker would have signed as soon as the price was agreed. Taylor would have signed for Brentford in the summer as soon as we agreed to sell him. Brentford aren't Liverpool. A big factor is probably being offered a deal they think is as good as they can get. Maddison probably thinks he can do better. Not a reason to criticise the club for - it is good they are trying to get a player like him and they may yet land him. But not all transfers are like this. Players often know a club is after them and what they might get wage wise before a bid is put in or accepted. The buying club also have a good idea that player wants to join them. Does anybody think Taylor didn't know what sort of deal Brentford would have given him? And Brentford didn't know he was keen to join them?
I would have liked to see a few in by now given the injury situation and the importance of points. Was that impossible? I don't think so. But it can still be put right and we all want that to happen. I do think it is ridiculius targeting the Barnsley game as being all important. It will be massive but a few points picked up before it will make it less so.
I think we'd all agree with this, so I don't know why you're going on and on. We think the Blackpool lad was overvalued. In your words, Maddison probably thinks he can do better. Bowyer hasn't agreed his contract yet.
I can only presume that you want us to pay more than what we consider to be fair prices.
Just calling it as I see it. I think it is vitally important we give ourselves as much chance as possible on Saturday. Others may not be so bothered but it is a valid position seeing as we have had over two weeks to deal with what we should all agree is a crisis.
Buying new players isn't like going to the supermarket, sticking them in the trolley, and checking-out!
It starts with expressing interest/seeking permission to speak - and from that point onwards the vast majority of decisions are outwith the buying club's control.
Yes I am concerned, but not because I believe we are not trying.
So many football fans are fantasists.
They must think we speak to a player/manager and they should just sign almost immediately on the dotted line.
We're Charlton you're not allowed to have time to think whether the deal is acceptable. We're Charlton just sign right here and now and no you can't discuss it with you partner. We're Charlton sign now, we don't care if you have issues with your kids and schools. We're Charlton, we don't get if you'll have to move house or live in a hotel for 6 months, sign here & now. We're Charlton .....
But none of that is the case with Bowyer.
Southall said he spoke him about not leaving for another club. The smart money is either Cardiff or Huddersfield. That would have been mid November. 3 months ago.
The take over was announced at the end of November.
It received EFL approval in the first week of January.
If you number 1 priority was to get the incumbent manager to sign a new contract, why has it taken over 90 days to actually offer a contract? That appears to be not actually be acceptable to Bowyer?
I used the word "stinks" last night, which was probably to strong, but something doesn't add up to me.
What is wrong is that Bowyer hasn't agreed the contract. It's a negotiation. Who knows the terms, but I'd suggest it's not straight forward.
Exactly, it should be straight forward by now. Or one side are insisting on something they know the other side won't agree on.
If Bowyer left tomorrow, do you honestly think it would take until the middle of April to replace him? Even taking into account all the points you correctly mentioned above?
No, if a player doesn't want to play for you there will be others that do. We have to find them, or at least a couple of them, because we have two games coming up in the next week with no midfield and one fit inexperienced striker. That is six points that we can't dismiss and say Barnsley is the important game. If we didn't have an injury crisis it wouldn't be anywhere near the issue it is. The desperation of the situation may mean you have to pay a bit more than you would like. But I don't advocate going crazy but we have to recognise there is some desperation in our current situation.
Ok well if we must go down this path then so be it.
In case you have forgotten ESI were dealing with a vendor who had driven multiple parties from his door over a 2yr period. You have absolutely no idea who pulled the trigger on the deal and in what timescale. These things do not go in a straight line. You are dealing with a £60mn transaction. You have no idea of the complexity the deal.
People were wetting themselves about the purchase of the training ground which was deferred because they did not have time to complete due diligence.
Once the deal is agreed you then have to jump through the EFL hoops.
In the meantime everybody has a day job to do.
The transaction was completed on January 2nd 2020.
ESI talks to buy the club are governed by the terms of agreed with Staprix NV. Under due diligence ESI have privileged access to people & information. In case the deal does not progress you are precluded from any negotiation with any staff member (poaching) . If the deal does not progress most such agreements specifically prevent the recruitment of any related personal for a period of 6 months.
Indeed such talks could undermine the negotiation with the vendor. It is a conflict of interest for staff working for the vendor but negotiating a job with the buyer. It is a breach of contract. It is friggin nonsense. Play fast & loose with such issues and money is involved. Staprix NV rejected one prospective buyer for publishing a photograph.
I fully respect there are issues - they have corporate & business growing pains written all over them.
They reflect the nature of the business ESI have bought. I could and probably should be hypercritical of Mr Southall who is showing his inexperience. Over the past 9 working days he is having to respond to too many issues. He will learn but a wiser head will have seen some of these issues coming and cut them off.
It was a failing business operated without a viable CEO or board for 6yrs. There are consequences. There will be new processes to be built in every conceivable direction. There is a changed dynamic.
Mr Southall has been appointed the face of the business.
Mr Bowyer has the been the face of the business for circa 2 yrs with a "what can I do" remote owner failsafe.
Short term contract, survival budget, club & agent derision, loans, Grant, Bauer, & Aribo leaving, recruits sign off via an analyst, no pre season, players off the street are all true but played out in the public arena carry a "woe is me" mentality. Duchatelet did not give a shit.
The landscape has changed. We, now in 9 working days, demand sanity.
Southall as the decision maker is the new man in the headlights. Every challenge is exacerbated by the glare of the media. Unless you have notable media training it is a steep learning curve. I have had media training. It is scary. The media is never your friend. They will dump on you in a heartbeat for a headline
I have no problem with his natural open nervousness if the alternative is a smooth, vanilla soundbite. If the former is who he is we are no poorer for it.
I would have shut the Bowyer dialogue down in a heartbeat. He is part of the Senior Management Team
I have told Bowyer I want him to stay. Bowyer has told me he wants to stay. I am confident we will work something out why wouldn't I defer discussions until February.
The bottom line is Bowyer has a contract and a job to do.
Did Bowyer see the Southall interview? If not why not? It is SMT mandatory viewing. If the February date is a problem tell me not the press.
If his contract is a barrier to him doing his job what has Bowyer done to sort it? He is not cleaning the bogs he is a Senior Manager. He is paid to manage. Senior Managers bring solutions not problems. He is 43 not 12.
Bowyer has lived with contracts for 25yrs. Every contractor on the planet knows the terms & conditions they want. His "super" agent cannot draft a contract? Bringing solutions comes with the pay cheque.
I hope he does not mean it but Bowyers words are not saying he wants to be here - they are saying he wants to be here but...
Southall is representing investors who are likely paying £60mn to be here. Have some fucking respect.
The dialogue with Louis was a nonsense. It was a bizarre conversation.
The LENGTH OF CONTRACT is not about the money. It is about being given the time to do the job. The value comes with the expertise, the performance and the targets achieved.
The SIZE OF THE PAY CHEQUE recognises such values AND the risk/reward.
A 5yr contract with a 12 month termination IS A 5YR CONTRACT. Termination compensation WTF?
Many CEO contracts are 12 month rolling contracts because the key business drivers are quarterly growth, targets & revenues and share price. I repeat the trade off is the size of the pay cheque You do not get paid big bucks AND have job security.
Players contracts reflect a broader value, a squad environment and a potential resale value. Managers are employed for one contribution. They succeed or fail. Any resale value arises from attainment at which point any termination compensation is redundant.
You get paid for attaining results not failure. You terminate someone's employment usually because they have failed to perform. You do not reward people for failure. It is dead money.
With a 3yr contract a 12 month termination compensation is pretty standard. Even most long term health benefit plans have a 2yr time limit. The simplest solution is to agree a lump sum settlement. It is no different to a sum to trigger a release clause if Bowyer wants to leave for another club. If you want long term security you could be put on gardening leave on 40% of base salary.
Last week's drama served no one.
Mr Bowyer I like you. I like your style. I would very much like you to stay. You have performed exceptionally well in exceptionally difficult circumstances but you know: - the man you spoke to last week about getting the contract sorted - the man you spoke to Saturday about termination clauses - the people that read the journalistic creations of either
have absolutely fuck all to do with your contract -70% would pay you £2mn pa and £10mn compensation but can't and won't.
The man you needed to speak to is the nice man you were sat next to last Thursday answering all those questions in your very expensive 1970s jacket. I think you will find he works in the same building and for the same nice man who lives in Dubai who is paying the bills.
It was called a press conference. How if the contract is a burning issue does any senior manager walk into a press conference NOT knowing about his contract. Even then did you hear the term of 5yrs and how he had sent a contract offer to your agent who you advised was working in LA. You know LA is not on another planet. Indeed LA is 8hrs behind London so when finishing the Press Conference on Thursday it was 0700hrs in LA.
Equally as Mr Rob Segal a "super agent" of some notoriety was heading for The Valley on Saturday he will without a following wind have had 11hrs to kill on the flight home. For someone keen to mention the challenge of making any signings without a new contract why did you not ask for a copy of the contract offer. I know Mr Southall uses text. Do you not use text? Have you not used e mail?
You could have asked for the one page bullet point summary produced for the nice man sitting in Dubai. Hell if you had asked nicely I would have signed a confidentiality agreement (you do know what those are?) and I would have let you have a summary to read over breakfast Saturday morning.
I repeat either the contract is important or it is not. Either your agent is competent or having now joined with the entertainment world of JGG he is doing a passable impression of Danny DeVito.
Either you have a working relationship with Mr Southall or you do not. It is a two way street.
I suggest whether you have a new contract or not no marquee signing is going to sign for any club if the Chairman and the manager want to conduct their business through the media. So with respect to Louis I really have no interests in his internet clicks and while I respect the views of Covered End and Airman would people mind please observing their contracts as they are today.
The man coming back from LA can refer you to the clauses concerning the confidentiality of corporate activity including your own personal contract. No employee gets to make up their own rules in such matters.
The principle is simple. How can you have any meaningful discussion behind closed doors if you face the risk of any issue being put in the public domain at the whim of an employee. Where do you draw line on such matters?
You don't - it is zero tolerance.
Mr Bowyer this investor IS INTERESTED. So this is not some little local incident with a couple of blokes playing "board game" negotiations. The money guy is sitting in Dubai. HE Tahnoon Nimer unless he is on his global travels is viewing this situation from several thousand miles away. HE has an executive overview of 60 companies. HE works in an environment of Investment Banking which demands confidentiality at all times.
HE is investing a very great deal of money. HE has put in a place an executive team to work with the clubs Senior Manager Team. I doubt HE gives a shit who is right or wrong but HE does not need to see a member of the SMT running his mouth off to the press to leverage their position.
If you are not prepared to respect the guy who is investing in you today and proposing to invest considerably more in you going forward, then why should HE respect you? Airing your business in public, (ah but it's football is bollocks) is not a good look at any time but from the 10000ft perspective of HE who is scrutinizing new working relationships HE is asking WTF?
Mr Bowyer this is supposed to be £60mn professionally operated business. Your own transaction is probably over 5yrs worth at least £2mn. So Mr Bowyer if nothing else a cautionary guideline for the future.
I have no problem with any manager discussing their position in general terms but you do not deliberately use the press to disrespect your employer …..for your personal advantage ….ever.
It is a matter of professional standards
So please no disrespect for Mr Southall, HE Tahnoon Nimer, your coaching team all of whom whose own contracts will depend on yours, every other member of staff, the club and supporters.
I completely accept Mr Bowyer it is a change because you have very unfairly largely been the only voice of the club for far, far too long. I respect it was a burden you carried very well but this is a new world and to the disappointment of every media hack you have to be more circumspect.
Mr Bowyer you are no longer the sole voice of the business, what you say has to reflect the corporate collective otherwise you risk making the business unmanageable.
Let me put it into another context. Mr Bowyer what would you say if a player who was not getting what he wants starts to leak to the media half the stuff you say to your players in the changing room? Is that OK?
As I say it is a matter zero tolerance.
I, and I suggest others, totally respect the balance to all of this is ESI have been operationally trading for 9 working days. They have a great deal on their plate but it is beginning to wear a little thin.
It is very early days but as per an esteemed poster to this site wisely states it will be a bumpy ride and there will be all too many "bumps in the road" to navigate. You have no need to create your own.
It is time for the soap opera to end.
So a few requests
To Mr Southall time to take control and get ahead of the game.
To Mr Southall and Mr Bowyer would you mind stopping getting in each others way.
To Mr Gallen would you mind in future actually checking with the parent club the presence of a loan player IS GUARANTEED for the rest of the season.
To Louis would you mind awfully not asking Mr Bowyer questions which appear beyond him. The next question is "Lee have you signed a new contract YES OR NO?
If the answer is YES we can all run around waving our arms as per a celebratory GIF.
If the answer is NO then so be it.
Mr Bowyer, the coaching team, the players, Mr Southall, HE Tahnoon Nimer, the other Directors, the rest of the staff, the club, the players and supporters will have to live with the consequences until his current contract expires.
In the meantime the club will continue and every one will fight hard to avoid relegation.
That is the priority.
The outcome may not be as we would like it but Mr Bowyer the carp will still be in your lake, you may find pastures new and the club will, god willing, likely go on.
I think I need a rest from social media.
I apologise for the rant but this is corporate stuff 101.
Imo, what has caused all this anxiety in the ranks is purely timing.
Taking over a Club at the opening of a much needed transfer window, with an excellent management team desperately needing contracts and also a very small squad, pole axed by injury. Add to that the star player, for want of a better term, looking at maybe going elsewhere and an integral part of the team being recalled by his parent club.
Maybe it just can't be helped that nothing will get done until after certain games. If it's an impossibility, I don't think it can be helped, no matter how frustrating it is.
All for moving on, but there's only one person to blame for this..
So many conspiracy theories.... Rather boring. Everyone was loving life after the press conference. A couple days have passed & now everyone is in meltdown because nothing has been 'Announced'. People really need to get a grip on here.
No @RedManS not "everyone" or even anything like "everyone".
There are a wide range of different views as I'd expect from a wide range of people.
So you was not happy at the fact a 5yr deal was offered? Was you not happy at the fact he mentioned marquee signings will be made? What exactly are you not happy with?
Everyone tried to do there upmost to get rid of Roland, now we have new owners which are saying all the right things & seem to be willing to spend money on PERMANENT signing's.
Please enlighten me as to what YOU expect?
What I expect is for some people not to claim that "everyone" holds a particular view when that clearly isn't the case.
Ok LOL.
Are you going to answer my questions or not? Why are you not happy?
When did I say I wasn't happy?
I said there were a wide range of views rather then your opinion that "everyone is in meltdown".
Never know anyone to actually take any context into the meaning 'everyone'. More of a phrase, didn't realise it would rattle you so much...
Oh dear.
I'm not rattled just like I'm not unhappy or in "meltdown".
"Everyone" is a word, not a phrase, BTW It means "everyone". If you meant "some" then use "some". Really not that difficult.
Ahh at least i now know you gets kicks from correcting people. Absolute knob head.
Just calling it as I see it. I think it is vitally important we give ourselves as much chance as possible on Saturday. Others may not be so bothered but it is a valid position seeing as we have had over two weeks to deal with what we should all agree is a crisis.
Buying new players isn't like going to the supermarket, sticking them in the trolley, and checking-out!
It starts with expressing interest/seeking permission to speak - and from that point onwards the vast majority of decisions are outwith the buying club's control.
Yes I am concerned, but not because I believe we are not trying.
So many football fans are fantasists.
They must think we speak to a player/manager and they should just sign almost immediately on the dotted line.
We're Charlton you're not allowed to have time to think whether the deal is acceptable. We're Charlton just sign right here and now and no you can't discuss it with you partner. We're Charlton sign now, we don't care if you have issues with your kids and schools. We're Charlton, we don't get if you'll have to move house or live in a hotel for 6 months, sign here & now. We're Charlton .....
But none of that is the case with Bowyer.
Southall said he spoke him about not leaving for another club. The smart money is either Cardiff or Huddersfield. That would have been mid November. 3 months ago.
The take over was announced at the end of November.
It received EFL approval in the first week of January.
If you number 1 priority was to get the incumbent manager to sign a new contract, why has it taken over 90 days to actually offer a contract? That appears to be not actually be acceptable to Bowyer?
I used the word "stinks" last night, which was probably to strong, but something doesn't add up to me.
What is wrong is that Bowyer hasn't agreed the contract. It's a negotiation. Who knows the terms, but I'd suggest it's not straight forward.
Exactly, it should be straight forward by now. Or one side are insisting on something they know the other side won't agree on.
If Bowyer left tomorrow, do you honestly think it would take until the middle of April to replace him? Even taking into account all the points you correctly mentioned above?
It should not take 3 months to orgamise a contract between chairman and manager.
Perhaps Southall is trying to run before he can walk in other things as well. A learning curve.
Mr 49 - or may I call you Grapevine - I'm sitting here in Woolwich watching a mushroom cloud steadily rising to the west, over SE7. That was some nuke - how'd you get it past security?? Awe-inspiring, simply breathtaking ....
Exactly, and where we might differ is whether it is an impossibility or merely difficult. Great post Grapevine btw. Very balanced too. The relationship between Bowyer and Southall does seem a bit strange and I think the points you make are well observed. What we don't know, because we are not party to the contract discussions is who carries most of the responsibility. But when Bowyer uses the press to make the points he has done, it doesn't sit well with me. And I do think Southall has lost the reigns a bit since the takeover. What we all want to see is Bowyer not to be a damaging sideshow when we all know we need to bring in some players that will ensure we are safe.
My concern, relating to the apparent delay in agreeing a new contract for Lee Bowyer and potential barriers to signing new players (like Maddison) is simply that of budget. Have ESI got the financial backing to set contract offers at a level that are competitive in this league. Not generous, not foolhardy, just competitive.
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
Agreed. We should not be screaming ESI out, but there is something to worry about until there isn't. It may well be that tomorrow there isn't. Today, there is.
My concern, relating to the apparent delay in agreeing a new contract for Lee Bowyer and potential barriers to signing new players (like Maddison) is simply that of budget. Have ESI got the financial backing to set contract offers at a level that are competitive in this league. Not generous, not foolhardy, just competitive.
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
My concern, relating to the apparent delay in agreeing a new contract for Lee Bowyer and potential barriers to signing new players (like Maddison) is simply that of budget. Have ESI got the financial backing to set contract offers at a level that are competitive in this league. Not generous, not foolhardy, just competitive.
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
I'm not worrying but I do get the impression that ESI want to correct some/all the errors of the RD era and one of those was being seen as a soft touch for agents when Meire would pay whatever they asked.
Now, that could be because they want sound housekeeping or because they are skint depending on how you view your glass.
Southall has made a big thing about increasing income through ticket sales and commercial activity so clearly they are conscious of their budget. It also suggests that they won't be throwing money around as "some" thought.
We're relatively poor and relatively far down the food chain hence why Swansea pay a big slice of the wages and so take Gallagher off us. That means we'll do our business in the main only after other clubs have done deals ie in the last week and days.
Not nice having to wait but what else can we do?
We need more players and MS, LB and SG all know that and I don't doubt that they are working on deals.
The pudding will be proved on 1 February, not today.
Agreed. We should not be screaming ESI out, but there is something to worry about until there isn't. It may well be that tomorrow there isn't. Today, there is.
Or there's nothing to worry about until there is?
I'm in the "wish they'd get a few deals over the line ASAP but not going to fret too much about it as yet" camp
Thank you Grapevine, for providing perspective on the situation.
On a lighter note: anyone notice how few posts there were in the 20 minutes after Grapevine's post? Most of us were reading it all the way through, hanging on to every word.
Those who did post during this time ...... you gave yourself away, you haven't read Grapevine's post, have you?
Well that is a fair position. You are holding your fretting until Feb 1st. I am concerned now, but I am expecting things to get better. I will just breath a massive sigh of relief when they do. Let's hope we are all happy in the end. I do appreciate that it may be that being a Charlton fan, you are used to potentially good things turning into the doggy do.
Grapevine's excellent post has helped me focus on what doesn't sit right with me which pushes me one way rather than the other. That is Bowyer's contract. Not just the delay but the crazy comms around it that feels wrong. Then you think, is there something beyond that? I also thought Bowyer didn't look that enthusiastic during the press conference. More like he had to be there. Maybe that is too big a leap but it just felt like it.
My concern, relating to the apparent delay in agreeing a new contract for Lee Bowyer and potential barriers to signing new players (like Maddison) is simply that of budget. Have ESI got the financial backing to set contract offers at a level that are competitive in this league. Not generous, not foolhardy, just competitive.
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
I'm not worrying but I do get the impression that ESI want to correct some/all the errors of the RD era and one of those was being seen as a soft touch for agents when Meire would pay whatever they asked.
Now, that could be because they want sound housekeeping or because they are skint depending on how you view your glass.
Southall has made a big thing about increasing income through ticket sales and commercial activity so clearly they are conscious of their budget. It also suggests that they won't be throwing money around as "some" thought.
We're relatively poor and relatively far down the food chain hence why Swansea pay a big slice of the wages and so take Gallagher off us. That means we'll do our business in the main only after other clubs have done deals ie in the last week and days.
Not nice having to wait but what else can we do?
We need more players and MS, LB and SG all know that and I don't doubt that they are working on deals.
The pudding will be proved on 1 February, not today.
The worry is Bowyer’s contract. That doesn’t need to and shouldn’t have to wait for the last week of the window.
My concern, relating to the apparent delay in agreeing a new contract for Lee Bowyer and potential barriers to signing new players (like Maddison) is simply that of budget. Have ESI got the financial backing to set contract offers at a level that are competitive in this league. Not generous, not foolhardy, just competitive.
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
i agree with you @Davo55 but wouldn't it be better to not worry until that can be assessed, rather than the other way round?
If we are talking budget then we are in such a ridiculously difficult position with the impact of disparity between competitors incomes in this league. Use Swansea as an example, feels like they dropped out the Prem ages ago now. They still got a £35m parachute payment this season and will get an £16m next season. They can operate at wage bills that dwarf ours, and there are many teams that fall into the same category.
If we are interested at Championship in a player, its a the first right of their agent to then use that as a marker to see what else our interest can generate from others, with the objective of getting his client (and by default himself) a better deal.
We will get there. There's clearly money there and that isn't the case with all clubs. Its just going to take a bit of time and if we are going for highly fancied players we need to accept that in some instances, we might not get it over the line.
If given what's been said there's been no real positive news about Bowyer's contract by the end of next week, then start to worry a bit imo.
Grapevine, much of what you say in your post resonates with me, particularly in relation to professional standards and working things in the context of a corporate environment with new owners. That is my background. For example, I was critical of Bowyer’s hypothesising on Saturday to the press regarding contract terms and termination clauses, instead of first talking with his agent and then Southall on the terms reflected in draft contract sent to him - I thought that was to a certain extent undermining his relationship with his new, relatively inexperienced boss.
However, others on here were quick to counter that Bowyer knows his worth in the market and how he was streetwise enough to know that airing his thoughts to the press might exert pressure. We will see how that goes but I fear that football clubs in general often do not adhere to what I would term “corporate norms”.
Comments
Southall first time being a chairman
Bowyer’s stance on his contract
ESI’s stance on his contract
Players available and likely to move in Jan
Our budget/wage structure
what players other clubs are looking at (ie Maddison leaves posh, they need a replacemen)
Who are our priorities
Gallagher being unexpectedly recalled
People waking up on the wrong side of the bed in the morning and so on
So many moving parts and the ignorance of the many (myself included), means for me, it’s best just to let it all play out at this stage
We think the Blackpool lad was overvalued.
In your words, Maddison probably thinks he can do better.
Bowyer hasn't agreed his contract yet.
I can only presume that you want us to pay more than what we consider to be fair prices.
If Bowyer left tomorrow, do you honestly think it would take until the middle of April to replace him? Even taking into account all the points you correctly mentioned above?
Ok well if we must go down this path then so be it.
In case you have forgotten ESI were dealing with a vendor who had driven multiple parties from his door over a 2yr period. You have absolutely no idea who pulled the trigger on the deal and in what timescale. These things do not go in a straight line. You are dealing with a £60mn transaction. You have no idea of the complexity the deal.
People were wetting themselves about the purchase of the training ground which was deferred because they did not have time to complete due diligence.
Once the deal is agreed you then have to jump through the EFL hoops.
In the meantime everybody has a day job to do.
The transaction was completed on January 2nd 2020.
ESI talks to buy the club are governed by the terms of agreed with Staprix NV. Under due diligence ESI have privileged access to people & information. In case the deal does not progress you are precluded from any negotiation with any staff member (poaching) . If the deal does not progress most such agreements specifically prevent the recruitment of any related personal for a period of 6 months.
I fully respect there are issues - they have corporate & business growing pains written all over them.
They reflect the nature of the business ESI have bought. I could and probably should be hypercritical of Mr Southall who is showing his inexperience. Over the past 9 working days he is having to respond to too many issues. He will learn but a wiser head will have seen some of these issues coming and cut them off.
It was a failing business operated without a viable CEO or board for 6yrs. There are consequences. There will be new processes to be built in every conceivable direction. There is a changed dynamic.
Mr Southall has been appointed the face of the business.
Mr Bowyer has the been the face of the business for circa 2 yrs with a "what can I do" remote owner failsafe.
Short term contract, survival budget, club & agent derision, loans, Grant, Bauer, & Aribo leaving, recruits sign off via an analyst, no pre season, players off the street are all true but played out in the public arena carry a "woe is me" mentality. Duchatelet did not give a shit.
The landscape has changed. We, now in 9 working days, demand sanity.
Southall as the decision maker is the new man in the headlights. Every challenge is exacerbated by the glare of the media. Unless you have notable media training it is a steep learning curve. I have had media training. It is scary. The media is never your friend. They will dump on you in a heartbeat for a headline
I have no problem with his natural open nervousness if the alternative is a smooth, vanilla soundbite. If the former is who he is we are no poorer for it.
I would have shut the Bowyer dialogue down in a heartbeat. He is part of the Senior Management Team
I have told Bowyer I want him to stay. Bowyer has told me he wants to stay. I am confident we will work something out why wouldn't I defer discussions until February.
The bottom line is Bowyer has a contract and a job to do.
Did Bowyer see the Southall interview? If not why not? It is SMT mandatory viewing. If the February date is a problem tell me not the press.
If his contract is a barrier to him doing his job what has Bowyer done to sort it? He is not cleaning the bogs he is a Senior Manager. He is paid to manage. Senior Managers bring solutions not problems. He is 43 not 12.
Bowyer has lived with contracts for 25yrs. Every contractor on the planet knows the terms & conditions they want. His "super" agent cannot draft a contract? Bringing solutions comes with the pay cheque.
I hope he does not mean it but Bowyers words are not saying he wants to be here - they are saying he wants to be here but...
Southall is representing investors who are likely paying £60mn to be here. Have some fucking respect.
The dialogue with Louis was a nonsense. It was a bizarre conversation.
The LENGTH OF CONTRACT is not about the money. It is about being given the time to do the job. The value comes with the expertise, the performance and the targets achieved.
The SIZE OF THE PAY CHEQUE recognises such values AND the risk/reward.
A 5yr contract with a 12 month termination IS A 5YR CONTRACT. Termination compensation WTF?
Many CEO contracts are 12 month rolling contracts because the key business drivers are quarterly growth, targets & revenues and share price. I repeat the trade off is the size of the pay cheque You do not get paid big bucks AND have job security.
Players contracts reflect a broader value, a squad environment and a potential resale value. Managers are employed for one contribution. They succeed or fail. Any resale value arises from attainment at which point any termination compensation is redundant.
You get paid for attaining results not failure. You terminate someone's employment usually because they have failed to perform. You do not reward people for failure. It is dead money.
With a 3yr contract a 12 month termination compensation is pretty standard. Even most long term health benefit plans have a 2yr time limit. The simplest solution is to agree a lump sum settlement. It is no different to a sum to trigger a release clause if Bowyer wants to leave for another club. If you want long term security you could be put on gardening leave on 40% of base salary.
Last week's drama served no one.
Mr Bowyer I like you. I like your style. I would very much like you to stay. You have performed exceptionally well in exceptionally difficult circumstances but you know:
- the man you spoke to last week about getting the contract sorted
- the man you spoke to Saturday about termination clauses
- the people that read the journalistic creations of either
have absolutely fuck all to do with your contract -70% would pay you £2mn pa and £10mn compensation but can't and won't.
The man you needed to speak to is the nice man you were sat next to last Thursday answering all those questions in your very expensive 1970s jacket. I think you will find he works in the same building and for the same nice man who lives in Dubai who is paying the bills.
It was called a press conference. How if the contract is a burning issue does any senior manager walk into a press conference NOT knowing about his contract. Even then did you hear the term of 5yrs and how he had sent a contract offer to your agent who you advised was working in LA. You know LA is not on another planet. Indeed LA is 8hrs behind London so when finishing the Press Conference on Thursday it was 0700hrs in LA.
Equally as Mr Rob Segal a "super agent" of some notoriety was heading for The Valley on Saturday he will without a following wind have had 11hrs to kill on the flight home. For someone keen to mention the challenge of making any signings without a new contract why did you not ask for a copy of the contract offer. I know Mr Southall uses text. Do you not use text? Have you not used e mail?
You could have asked for the one page bullet point summary produced for the nice man sitting in Dubai. Hell if you had asked nicely I would have signed a confidentiality agreement (you do know what those are?) and I would have let you have a summary to read over breakfast Saturday morning.
I repeat either the contract is important or it is not. Either your agent is competent or having now joined with the entertainment world of JGG he is doing a passable impression of Danny DeVito.
Either you have a working relationship with Mr Southall or you do not. It is a two way street.
I suggest whether you have a new contract or not no marquee signing is going to sign for any club if the Chairman and the manager want to conduct their business through the media. So with respect to Louis I really have no interests in his internet clicks and while I respect the views of Covered End and Airman would people mind please observing their contracts as they are today.
The man coming back from LA can refer you to the clauses concerning the confidentiality of corporate activity including your own personal contract. No employee gets to make up their own rules in such matters.
The principle is simple. How can you have any meaningful discussion behind closed doors if you face the risk of any issue being put in the public domain at the whim of an employee. Where do you draw line on such matters?
You don't - it is zero tolerance.
Mr Bowyer this investor IS INTERESTED. So this is not some little local incident with a couple of blokes playing "board game" negotiations. The money guy is sitting in Dubai. HE Tahnoon Nimer unless he is on his global travels is viewing this situation from several thousand miles away. HE has an executive overview of 60 companies. HE works in an environment of Investment Banking which demands confidentiality at all times.
HE is investing a very great deal of money. HE has put in a place an executive team to work with the clubs Senior Manager Team. I doubt HE gives a shit who is right or wrong but HE does not need to see a member of the SMT running his mouth off to the press to leverage their position.
If you are not prepared to respect the guy who is investing in you today and proposing to invest considerably more in you going forward, then why should HE respect you? Airing your business in public, (ah but it's football is bollocks) is not a good look at any time but from the 10000ft perspective of HE who is scrutinizing new working relationships HE is asking WTF?
Mr Bowyer this is supposed to be £60mn professionally operated business. Your own transaction is probably over 5yrs worth at least £2mn. So Mr Bowyer if nothing else a cautionary guideline for the future.
I have no problem with any manager discussing their position in general terms but you do not deliberately use the press to disrespect your employer …..for your personal advantage ….ever.
It is a matter of professional standards
So please no disrespect for Mr Southall, HE Tahnoon Nimer, your coaching team all of whom whose own contracts will depend on yours, every other member of staff, the club and supporters.
I completely accept Mr Bowyer it is a change because you have very unfairly largely been the only voice of the club for far, far too long. I respect it was a burden you carried very well but this is a new world and to the disappointment of every media hack you have to be more circumspect.
Mr Bowyer you are no longer the sole voice of the business, what you say has to reflect the corporate collective otherwise you risk making the business unmanageable.
Let me put it into another context. Mr Bowyer what would you say if a player who was not getting what he wants starts to leak to the media half the stuff you say to your players in the changing room? Is that OK?
As I say it is a matter zero tolerance.
I, and I suggest others, totally respect the balance to all of this is ESI have been operationally trading for 9 working days. They have a great deal on their plate but it is beginning to wear a little thin.
It is very early days but as per an esteemed poster to this site wisely states it will be a bumpy ride and there will be all too many "bumps in the road" to navigate. You have no need to create your own.
It is time for the soap opera to end.
So a few requests
To Mr Southall time to take control and get ahead of the game.
To Mr Southall and Mr Bowyer would you mind stopping getting in each others way.
To Mr Gallen would you mind in future actually checking with the parent club the presence of a loan player IS GUARANTEED for the rest of the season.
To Louis would you mind awfully not asking Mr Bowyer questions which appear beyond him. The next question is "Lee have you signed a new contract YES OR NO?
If the answer is YES we can all run around waving our arms as per a celebratory GIF.
If the answer is NO then so be it.
Mr Bowyer, the coaching team, the players, Mr Southall, HE Tahnoon Nimer, the other Directors, the rest of the staff, the club, the players and supporters will have to live with the consequences until his current contract expires.
In the meantime the club will continue and every one will fight hard to avoid relegation.
That is the priority.
The outcome may not be as we would like it but Mr Bowyer the carp will still be in your lake, you may find pastures new and the club will, god willing, likely go on.
I think I need a rest from social media.
I apologise for the rant but this is corporate stuff 101.
Taking over a Club at the opening of a much needed transfer window, with an excellent management team desperately needing contracts and also a very small squad, pole axed by injury. Add to that the star player, for want of a better term, looking at maybe going elsewhere and an integral part of the team being recalled by his parent club.
Maybe it just can't be helped that nothing will get done until after certain games. If it's an impossibility, I don't think it can be helped, no matter how frustrating it is.
All for moving on, but there's only one person to blame for this..
Anyway, time to move on
Perhaps Southall is trying to run before he can walk in other things as well. A learning curve.
Mr 49 - or may I call you Grapevine - I'm sitting here in Woolwich watching a mushroom cloud steadily rising to the west, over SE7. That was some nuke - how'd you get it past security?? Awe-inspiring, simply breathtaking ....
It's also Business 101 to not promise things that aren't totally in your gift on your first day in the job.
If "poaching" is legally protected how could MS speak to Bowyer about staying and not going to another club?
When I see evidence of that, I'll stop worrying.
If we continue to have problems signing the standard of players that we need, are losing out not only to direct competitors but also to League One teams, are forced to sign sub-standard players for the challenges ahead - the worry will be justified.
Now, that could be because they want sound housekeeping or because they are skint depending on how you view your glass.
Southall has made a big thing about increasing income through ticket sales and commercial activity so clearly they are conscious of their budget. It also suggests that they won't be throwing money around as "some" thought.
We're relatively poor and relatively far down the food chain hence why Swansea pay a big slice of the wages and so take Gallagher off us. That means we'll do our business in the main only after other clubs have done deals ie in the last week and days.
Not nice having to wait but what else can we do?
We need more players and MS, LB and SG all know that and I don't doubt that they are working on deals.
The pudding will be proved on 1 February, not today.
I'm in the "wish they'd get a few deals over the line ASAP but not going to fret too much about it as yet" camp
On a lighter note: anyone notice how few posts there were in the 20 minutes after Grapevine's post?
Most of us were reading it all the way through, hanging on to every word.
Those who did post during this time ...... you gave yourself away, you haven't read Grapevine's post, have you?
Grapevine's excellent post has helped me focus on what doesn't sit right with me which pushes me one way rather than the other. That is Bowyer's contract. Not just the delay but the crazy comms around it that feels wrong. Then you think, is there something beyond that? I also thought Bowyer didn't look that enthusiastic during the press conference. More like he had to be there. Maybe that is too big a leap but it just felt like it.
i agree with you @Davo55 but wouldn't it be better to not worry until that can be assessed, rather than the other way round?
If we are talking budget then we are in such a ridiculously difficult position with the impact of disparity between competitors incomes in this league. Use Swansea as an example, feels like they dropped out the Prem ages ago now. They still got a £35m parachute payment this season and will get an £16m next season. They can operate at wage bills that dwarf ours, and there are many teams that fall into the same category.
If we are interested at Championship in a player, its a the first right of their agent to then use that as a marker to see what else our interest can generate from others, with the objective of getting his client (and by default himself) a better deal.
We will get there. There's clearly money there and that isn't the case with all clubs. Its just going to take a bit of time and if we are going for highly fancied players we need to accept that in some instances, we might not get it over the line.
If given what's been said there's been no real positive news about Bowyer's contract by the end of next week, then start to worry a bit imo.