Which was my point Brazilance - Ibborg has added all the solicitor speculation issues that none of us can know to justify disagreeing with my earlier post, but at least we can all agree, even if we believe it has taken too long, that Bowyer signing is a good thing. The side point to this is that the one thing Ibborg and I do agree on is that we dislike each other.
really? it come across flirty between you both
Agree, you can definitely sense the frisson of sexual tension.
So from what Bowyer is saying it seems the vast majority of terms etc are fine and all agreed, but there are a few details still being worked on.
Why it's taken what seems a long time I do not know but I would presume that if it is indeed a five year contract it has to cover a lot of potential futures, and have terms and conditions that vary depending on which division we are in in each of those years - LB should get paid more as a Championship manager than a League One manager but that leads to complications I presume.
Not just about money. Length of contract. Escape clause. Compensation. How compensation is payed. Assurances over staff and budget. Reviews of salary based on success or otherwise. Control of signings. The list is endless.
I do not know if this will help anyone but I thought it worth saying. Football players for English clubs have a nice template contract. The blanks are filled in (money, length etc) maybe a few riders are added and bingo, contract complete and signed.
Perhaps surprisingly, there is no such standard contract for managers. While the League Managers' Association stands ready to provide advice to its members, these contracts will be far more complex and pretty much bespoke rather than prêt-à-porter. They will need to include notice periods, gardening leave, poaching clauses, etc, etc. Some clauses take on much more significance the longer the contract. If anyone doubts the complexity, look up Bruce/Palace, Conte/Chelsea or Curbishley/West Ham.
Then, in football, 5 years is almost equivalent to the Mesozoic Era. How many managers' contracts has Southall seen recently? Probably none. And don't forget Bowyer will have little experience of managers' contracts apart from the post-it note that Duchatelet got him to sign. Both the club and Lee would be well advised to seek expert legal input and that takes time.
So from what Bowyer is saying it seems the vast majority of terms etc are fine and all agreed, but there are a few details still being worked on.
Why it's taken what seems a long time I do not know but I would presume that if it is indeed a five year contract it has to cover a lot of potential futures, and have terms and conditions that vary depending on which division we are in in each of those years - LB should get paid more as a Championship manager than a League One manager but that leads to complications I presume.
Not just about money. Length of contract. Escape clause. Compensation. How compensation is payed. Assurances over staff and budget. Reviews of salary based on success or otherwise. Control of signings. The list is endless.
I do not know if this will help anyone but I thought it worth saying. Football players for English clubs have a nice template contract. The blanks are filled in (money, length etc) maybe a few riders are added and bingo, contract complete and signed.
Perhaps surprisingly, there is no such standard contract for managers. While the League Managers' Association stands ready to provide advice to its members, these contracts will be far more complex and pretty much bespoke rather than prêt-à-porter. They will need to include notice periods, gardening leave, poaching clauses, etc, etc. Some clauses take on much more significance the longer the contract. If anyone doubts the complexity, look up Bruce/Palace, Conte/Chelsea or Curbishley/West Ham.
Then, in football, 5 years is almost equivalent to the Mesozoic Era. How many managers' contracts has Southall seen recently? Probably none. And don't forget Bowyer will have little experience of managers' contracts apart from the post-it note that Duchatelet got him to sign. Both the club and Lee would be well advised to seek expert legal input and that takes time.
I thought @bobmonro said the other day there was a standard LMA contract? He should know.
"Like I said, me and my team have worked hard and I think that we deserved to be treated the same as other people in other clubs, so that’s all we’ve ever asked for and it looks like that’s going to happen."
This contract situation, as I think it reads, is not just about Bowyer. It also includes the playing Management team.
Maybe Bowyer's insisted on that and it's been one of the sticking points?
So from what Bowyer is saying it seems the vast majority of terms etc are fine and all agreed, but there are a few details still being worked on.
Why it's taken what seems a long time I do not know but I would presume that if it is indeed a five year contract it has to cover a lot of potential futures, and have terms and conditions that vary depending on which division we are in in each of those years - LB should get paid more as a Championship manager than a League One manager but that leads to complications I presume.
Not just about money. Length of contract. Escape clause. Compensation. How compensation is payed. Assurances over staff and budget. Reviews of salary based on success or otherwise. Control of signings. The list is endless.
I do not know if this will help anyone but I thought it worth saying. Football players for English clubs have a nice template contract. The blanks are filled in (money, length etc) maybe a few riders are added and bingo, contract complete and signed.
Perhaps surprisingly, there is no such standard contract for managers. While the League Managers' Association stands ready to provide advice to its members, these contracts will be far more complex and pretty much bespoke rather than prêt-à-porter. They will need to include notice periods, gardening leave, poaching clauses, etc, etc. Some clauses take on much more significance the longer the contract. If anyone doubts the complexity, look up Bruce/Palace, Conte/Chelsea or Curbishley/West Ham.
Then, in football, 5 years is almost equivalent to the Mesozoic Era. How many managers' contracts has Southall seen recently? Probably none. And don't forget Bowyer will have little experience of managers' contracts apart from the post-it note that Duchatelet got him to sign. Both the club and Lee would be well advised to seek expert legal input and that takes time.
I thought @bobmonro said the other day there was a standard LMA contract? He should know.
There is a base template- but as @cafcfan says a manager's contract has much more bespoking required than a player's.
Which was my point Brazilance - Ibborg has added all the solicitor speculation issues that none of us can know to justify disagreeing with my earlier post, but at least we can all agree, even if we believe it has taken too long, that Bowyer signing is a good thing. The side point to this is that the one thing Ibborg and I do agree on is that we dislike each other.
really? it come across flirty between you both
Agree, you can definitely sense the frisson of sexual tension.
"Like I said, me and my team have worked hard and I think that we deserved to be treated the same as other people in other clubs, so that’s all we’ve ever asked for and it looks like that’s going to happen."
This contract situation, as I think it reads, is not just about Bowyer. It also includes the playing Management team.
Maybe Bowyer's insisted on that and it's been one of the sticking points?
I don't want you to apologise. There have been a number of posts where in isolation it is just disagreeing but when put together it feels personal. We have had run ins in the past so I am saying I find it tiring. Now if it is just we disagree on virtually everything, fair enough, it probably illustrates what I am saying. I can certainly try to steer clear of you if you do so with me.
Well uf those are your rules mate, then I'd better stick to em.
Just out of curiosity how complex is it to sign a manager that wants to stay and the owners apparently want to keep.
They were all in the same vicinity at the weekend, we were told they would talk, they did, it's now 5 nights since then and we are still 'very very close' surely it's a pressing matter and they should be getting to the bottom of it rather than letting the days go by. Each to their own but if I had just bought a football club and truly wanted the manager to stay, I would make time for him and not leave that room until we come to an agreement. I don't understand the hold up
MS - "Gonna offer £7k a week" LB - "£12k!" MS - "£8k!" LB - "£10K!" MS - "DONE" LB - "Right let's go do the pub......"
I am sure the new owners after seeing us lose Gallagher and not being able to get terms with Maddison and this Bowyer negotiation are thinking “Is everything going to be this hard?”
Just because I found it quite interesting to see a "neutral" perspective, this was from an article on football365.com about the best managers in the EFL:
"Lee Bowyer (Charlton Athletic) The fact that Charlton Athletic are not bottom of the Championship is enough to warrant Addicks manager Lee Bowyer a spot on this list. Superb early season form has allowed the Valley-based outfit to avoid plateauing below the dotted relegation line despite an injury list in the double figures forcing players to be recalled from loan spells as far down as the National League South. And all this in the midst of rogue ownership only just recently moved on from the south London club.
ADVERTISING
Former player Bowyer has gone from contract limbo in the summer despite guiding the club to unlikely promotion from the third tier to being offered a new five year deal. If that isn’t a sign of how much Bowyer and his band of merry men are overachieving, then the fact that keeping this depleted squad higher in the league table than recently relegated Huddersfield Town and one of the most expensive and highest-paid teams in Stoke City past the halfway stage certainly is.
If Bowyer guides Charlton to 21st place or higher come May, the Manager of the Season Award should be in the first-class post to SE7."
So we can say that losing Bowyer either through malice or carelessness would probably not play out well in the PR stakes!
"Like I said, me and my team have worked hard and I think that we deserved to be treated the same as other people in other clubs, so that’s all we’ve ever asked for and it looks like that’s going to happen."
This contract situation, as I think it reads, is not just about Bowyer. It also includes the playing Management team.
Maybe Bowyer's insisted on that and it's been one of the sticking points?
Wake me up when Bows is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very close to signing that fucking contract!
Just calling it as I see it. I think it is vitally important we give ourselves as much chance as possible on Saturday. Others may not be so bothered but it is a valid position seeing as we have had over two weeks to deal with what we should all agree is a crisis.
Buying new players isn't like going to the supermarket, sticking them in the trolley, and checking-out!
It starts with expressing interest/seeking permission to speak - and from that point onwards the vast majority of decisions are outwith the buying club's control.
Yes I am concerned, but not because I believe we are not trying.
So many football fans are fantasists.
They must think we speak to a player/manager and they should just sign almost immediately on the dotted line.
We're Charlton you're not allowed to have time to think whether the deal is acceptable. We're Charlton just sign right here and now and no you can't discuss it with you partner. We're Charlton sign now, we don't care if you have issues with your kids and schools. We're Charlton, we don't get if you'll have to move house or live in a hotel for 6 months, sign here & now. We're Charlton .....
But none of that is the case with Bowyer.
Southall said he spoke him about not leaving for another club. The smart money is either Cardiff or Huddersfield. That would have been mid November. 3 months ago.
The take over was announced at the end of November.
It received EFL approval in the first week of January.
If you number 1 priority was to get the incumbent manager to sign a new contract, why has it taken over 90 days to actually offer a contract? That appears to be not actually be acceptable to Bowyer?
I used the word "stinks" last night, which was probably to strong, but something doesn't add up to me.
What is wrong is that Bowyer hasn't agreed the contract. It's a negotiation. Who knows the terms, but I'd suggest it's not straight forward.
Negotiation is fine, the fact that we've been negotiating since October isn't. Obviously it's not straight forward which is why he hasn't signed. No player is going to sign if they don't know if LB is staying.
Now this is why you're getting in such a state. They haven't been negotiating since October.
NB I expect a signing to be announced very soon.
A signing soon, is that just a guess or something more?
Just calling it as I see it. I think it is vitally important we give ourselves as much chance as possible on Saturday. Others may not be so bothered but it is a valid position seeing as we have had over two weeks to deal with what we should all agree is a crisis.
Buying new players isn't like going to the supermarket, sticking them in the trolley, and checking-out!
It starts with expressing interest/seeking permission to speak - and from that point onwards the vast majority of decisions are outwith the buying club's control.
Yes I am concerned, but not because I believe we are not trying.
So many football fans are fantasists.
They must think we speak to a player/manager and they should just sign almost immediately on the dotted line.
We're Charlton you're not allowed to have time to think whether the deal is acceptable. We're Charlton just sign right here and now and no you can't discuss it with you partner. We're Charlton sign now, we don't care if you have issues with your kids and schools. We're Charlton, we don't get if you'll have to move house or live in a hotel for 6 months, sign here & now. We're Charlton .....
But none of that is the case with Bowyer.
Southall said he spoke him about not leaving for another club. The smart money is either Cardiff or Huddersfield. That would have been mid November. 3 months ago.
The take over was announced at the end of November.
It received EFL approval in the first week of January.
If you number 1 priority was to get the incumbent manager to sign a new contract, why has it taken over 90 days to actually offer a contract? That appears to be not actually be acceptable to Bowyer?
I used the word "stinks" last night, which was probably to strong, but something doesn't add up to me.
What is wrong is that Bowyer hasn't agreed the contract. It's a negotiation. Who knows the terms, but I'd suggest it's not straight forward.
Negotiation is fine, the fact that we've been negotiating since October isn't. Obviously it's not straight forward which is why he hasn't signed. No player is going to sign if they don't know if LB is staying.
Now this is why you're getting in such a state. They haven't been negotiating since October.
NB I expect a signing to be announced very soon.
A signing soon, is that just a guess or something more?
I don't think I have ever read a Grapevine post all the way through.
I’m going to get the York notes version when it comes out.
I have a routine with Grapevine’s posts. Always click the like button before I copy and paste them into my speechify app. It reads it out to me so I don’t have to.
Wonder if this thread, like the takeover thread, reaches 2000+ pages before he signs a contract.
It will never end, as soon as he signs a new contract there will be people on here the next day panicking that he has only 4 years and 364 days left and the club is going to get relegated
Another week to tie up his contract and that gives us a solid 5-days for excuses and platitudes...so close to getting X players over the line but we have just managed to get big Don from Margate Town in on loan...
I don't want you to apologise. There have been a number of posts where in isolation it is just disagreeing but when put together it feels personal. We have had run ins in the past so I am saying I find it tiring. Now if it is just we disagree on virtually everything, fair enough, it probably illustrates what I am saying. I can certainly try to steer clear of you if you do so with me.
Well uf those are your rules mate, then I'd better stick to em.
Amazed he hasn't signed yet - not filling anyone with confidence.
If you watch the press Conference from Thursday I don’t think there’s anything to be worried about, I think it’ll be done by the middle of next week latest, he said there’s a few small things to be done including sorting the back room staff.
Amazed he hasn't signed yet - not filling anyone with confidence.
If you watch the press Conference from Thursday I don’t think there’s anything to be worried about, I think it’ll be done by the middle of next week latest, he said there’s a few small things to be done including sorting the back room staff.
Just be glad once we get some positive signs from the new owners....
Amazed he hasn't signed yet - not filling anyone with confidence.
If you watch the press Conference from Thursday I don’t think there’s anything to be worried about, I think it’ll be done by the middle of next week latest, he said there’s a few small things to be done including sorting the back room staff.
I wonder if Bowyer said something along the lines, "I'm only signing if my management team are signed up too?" Hence a further delay.
The whole point of a 5 year contract for Bowyer, I should imagine, is to bring stability to the club plus give him time to build and develop the team. And that includes his management team ...... he won't want to do that without Jacko, Gallen and Marshall - plus other key backroom staff.
Comments
Perhaps surprisingly, there is no such standard contract for managers. While the League Managers' Association stands ready to provide advice to its members, these contracts will be far more complex and pretty much bespoke rather than prêt-à-porter. They will need to include notice periods, gardening leave, poaching clauses, etc, etc. Some clauses take on much more significance the longer the contract. If anyone doubts the complexity, look up Bruce/Palace, Conte/Chelsea or Curbishley/West Ham.
Then, in football, 5 years is almost equivalent to the Mesozoic Era. How many managers' contracts has Southall seen recently? Probably none. And don't forget Bowyer will have little experience of managers' contracts apart from the post-it note that Duchatelet got him to sign. Both the club and Lee would be well advised to seek expert legal input and that takes time.
I thought @bobmonro said the other day there was a standard LMA contract? He should know.
BTW does anyone know more about Rob Segal's background?
"Like I said, me and my team have worked hard and I think that we deserved to be treated the same as other people in other clubs, so that’s all we’ve ever asked for and it looks like that’s going to happen."
This contract situation, as I think it reads, is not just about Bowyer.
It also includes the playing Management team.
Maybe Bowyer's insisted on that and it's been one of the sticking points?
"My team and I".
"Lee Bowyer (Charlton Athletic)
The fact that Charlton Athletic are not bottom of the Championship is enough to warrant Addicks manager Lee Bowyer a spot on this list. Superb early season form has allowed the Valley-based outfit to avoid plateauing below the dotted relegation line despite an injury list in the double figures forcing players to be recalled from loan spells as far down as the National League South. And all this in the midst of rogue ownership only just recently moved on from the south London club.
Former player Bowyer has gone from contract limbo in the summer despite guiding the club to unlikely promotion from the third tier to being offered a new five year deal. If that isn’t a sign of how much Bowyer and his band of merry men are overachieving, then the fact that keeping this depleted squad higher in the league table than recently relegated Huddersfield Town and one of the most expensive and highest-paid teams in Stoke City past the halfway stage certainly is.
If Bowyer guides Charlton to 21st place or higher come May, the Manager of the Season Award should be in the first-class post to SE7."
So we can say that losing Bowyer either through malice or carelessness would probably not play out well in the PR stakes!
very very very very very very very very
very very very very very very very very
very very very very very very very very
very very very very very very very very
close to signing that fucking contract!
Ta
Hence a further delay.
The whole point of a 5 year contract for Bowyer, I should imagine, is to bring stability to the club plus give him time to build and develop the team.
And that includes his management team ...... he won't want to do that without Jacko, Gallen and Marshall - plus other key backroom staff.