Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
And a country is entitled to define what they accept for entry. You have to accept you will not be admitted if you don't comply. No special circs because (you think) you're extra special. Your choice and their choice
I’m on the fence with this one. I use to be undecided but I’m not so sure now🤔… Let me first say that I had Covid when it first started doing the rounds and have since been tripled vaccinated 🤗. But I’m still leaning towards the support of those that don’t want to be vaccinated as to what the problem is🧐? I can still carry the virus even though I’ve been vaccinated and so can those that are not vaccinated. The only difference I believe is that should i contract the virus again it is very unlikely that it will result in my demise or hopefully not to have a long term issues. Those that don’t have the vaccine are at a higher risk of dying or suffering serious illnesses. Surely that is the choice of those people that don’t want the vaccine? And back to the original point, in that the tennis player doesn’t want the vaccine but wants to play in the tournament. Is he a higher risk of bringing the virus into Australia than the vaccinated players? What the dilemma is is that Australian Government has got their knickers in a twist by applying double standards and I totally support the uproar that the government will face from its citizens. 😤
Oops up side again i said oops up side again. 🥸
The problem is that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more people end up hospitalised. That then directly leads to 7hr waits for ambulances, operations being cancelled, diagnosis' being delayed, etc.
You could just refuse to treat unvaccinated people. Leave the NHS free to treat those who have bothered to get vaccinated for themselves & for others. That would concentrate minds.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
Agreed. And protecting others.i It is t just about oneself
Hasn't he recently recovered from Covid? If you're following the science, he poses no threat.
I know the rules are the rules, but if there's no exemption for naturally acquired immunity, then the rules are stupid.
If he has an exemption and has provided the necessary details and the correct visa then I'm sure he"d be in by now? I'm not sure if we are getting the full story.
I thought he has allegedly questionable grounds for an exemption AND applied for the wrong visa. Lose , lose
So again I'll ask, who does it effect other than Novak himself if he isn't jabbed?
Not being jabbed increases risk of transmission to others. ALso, Australia have defined their rules for entry to their country, who is he or anyone else to not comply? That said, I wonder what the definition is on the England players' visas
Feel a bit petty jumping in from the sidelines just to make this comment, but I cannot believe that after all this time people are still unaware of the dangers we pose to others by refusing to be vaccinated (same also goes for mask wearing).
Feel a bit petty jumping in from the sidelines just to make this comment, but I cannot believe that after all this time people are still unaware of the dangers we pose to others by refusing to be vaccinated (same also goes for mask wearing).
Goes hand in hand with this but I am baffled how people do not understand that you can carry a viral load without developing symptoms as a result of the vaccine, you know, doing what it is intended to do.
Same viral load can spread to any other person you come into contact with.
I just don’t get how much clearer it needs to be for the selfish twats.
A friend who was in HMRC policy suggested raising taxes on those that won’t get vaccinated to make up for the cost to the NHS and the economy.
I thought he was joking, but actually the more I think about it the more I see there’s a certain amount of logic behind it.
The tax on cigarettes and alcohol is so high for similar reasons.
If that's the intelligence level of policy makers in HMRC we're all doomed - his suggestion is nonsense on so many levels.
I don’t agree.
It would be simple to implement, would raise revenue, and would lead to an increase in the percentage of the population that are vaccinated.
People objected to increases in taxation on alcohol and cigarettes at first, but it’s accepted now.
No one would be forcing anyone to be vaccinated, but those choosing that path should pay a premium to society to make up for the damage they cause, just like we do when we buy cigarettes and alcohol.
Firstly, thanks for raising these points as they’re all valid and reasonable arguments:
How would such a tax be collected?
By increasing their tax codes. They know who has and who hasn’t been vaccinated, and how many vaccinations each person has had of course.
So agreed that it couldn't be treated like cigarettes and alcohol. Tax codes could be used, but would again require enormous change and complexity beyond my comprehension for what would inevitably be a relatively short period (we know cigarettes and alcohol will be around for a while to come - Covid won't be).
I suppose you could collect a tax on the unvaccinated through PAYE for those that are payroll, or self assessment for those that aren't. The whole tax process would need to be updated regularly and require significant investment in tech
Nowhere near the £37 billion wasted on track and trace.
Spend on other projects, positive or negative, is irrelevent. This is a cost for a specific requirement.
and enforcement as either the NHS database and the HMRC database would need to integrate or it would be reliant on self declaration (which would require investigation).
Fairly simple to do apparently. It’s easy to increase tax codes, and simple to reduce them when the unvaxxed change their minds and get a jab. It would require a vote in Parliament, of course. But the tax rises needn’t be very high. Just a percent or two, to be reviewed depending on the uptake of the vaccine.
In which case, a hell of a lot of work (notwithstanding the moral discussion which would trump all other aspects) for something "not very high" (ie relatively low value in the context of the UKs tax take)
Of course, in that case, we would also need to reduce the benefits for those unvaccinated that don't work to ensure its equitably applied.
I doubt they’d do that. Some countries offer payments to those accepting the vaccine though, I think? That might work well with the unvaxxed on benefits. Maybe restore the the tax credit cut to them?
There were incentives in place in certain sectors / countries at the outset, but they'd be an understandable backlash if benefits were increased for doing what the taxed population do for nothing (outside of the health and societal benefits). It would be a direct reward for not getting jabbed.
What if someone does get vaccinated half way through the tax year? Is it proportionate or absolute? If the latter we will see a rush for vaccinations on April 5th to ensure a full year benefit of money and health. See below.
What is HMRCs definition of vaccinated? 1 jab, 2 jabs, 2 jabs and a booster (and any subsequent boosters?)
I’d guess it would be those who have accepted the vaccines and boosters within a time frame. They know people’s dates of birth, so they’d know how long they’ve refused vaccination.
I don't get the connection between timeframe / date of birth and vaccination for anyone over the age of 12 and who are liable to pay tax. You've either had the jab(s) or not.
If its proved that vaccines offer less protection over time, to the point that they don't offer protection and / or we move to endemic status or less, can the unvaccinated claim a proportionate refund?
I doubt it because of the historic cost to society and the economy when the vaccines were known to work. If they stopped working they could/would then suspend vaccinations and also the tax increases.
Understood.
Should we also tax amateur footballers and rugby players at the same time? I've been to A&E on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning? Its full of people in muddy kit....
No. By and large those play sport are healthier than those that don’t, and overall I doubt the cost to the NHS of dealing with the odd broken leg isn’t offset by the fact that they require less care for high blood pressure, diabetes, strokes etc etc.
Fair point. Remove footballers and rugby players and replace with people over a defined BMI level...Should we tax fat people?
Worth bearing in mind that Italy has started fining the over 50s who refuse the vaccines.
I'm fully jabbed, test regularly, wear a face mask, think everyone should get the jab etc etc. but I draw a line at compulsory vaccinations. Part of the role of a civil government is to manage those that are uncivil.
Basically I’m sick to death of living under covid and the way out is vaccination.
I agree
This is a worldwide crisis, and unless a serious effort is made to tackle it WORLDWIDE, it could easily get worse and worse with new, more dangerous variants evolving, which is what happens when you let it run rampant.
I agree it needs tackling worldwide, but hope (and expect) this to go the same as every other global viral issue and that new variants are less rather than more dangerous.
We’re all sick of living in covid times and we all want it to end. I have a couple of senior medics in the family who have been working on the frontline of covid, and they’re sick of it too. Understandable
Cheers for reading. Likewise
This is a proper old man in the pub discussion after a couple of pints - good though! My thoughts in Italics...(ps its still bollocks) :-)
Firstly, who are you calling old!? And secondly, not at all, some of your points were very good! ;-)
the Aussie Govt responding to public opinion .. was a vert daft decision to let him circumvent the rules in the first place
Looking like Tennis Australia were ignoring advice from the Victorian government and the Federal government, as I said previously money/ revenue talks. Nothing unusual about a visa being revoked, don't any of you ever watch border patrol? If there's any doubt or misinformation, then you're out. Just because he is a sports star doesn't give him any sort of preferential treatment. I hope they stick by their guns and boot him out. As for the Serbian President, what a dick.
So again I'll ask, who does it effect other than Novak himself if he isn't jabbed?
Being vaccinated reduces your chances of infecting others. Also, it isn't about his choice about whether he gets vaccinated or not, it is about him having to follow the same rules as everyone else.
In the same way that's his choice, Australia has the choice who to admit into their country and can set their rules for their country
What is the medical exemption based on ? Do we know ?
It's all bollocks - he is one of, if not the, fittest athletes on the planet.
He has massively achieved if he's been carrying a significant medical condition all these years.
I think his claim is he had covid 6 months ago. If so, that would mean he's had it at least twice as he and others (a lot if not all) involved in some charity tournament (I think he organised) got covid before, (after they were seen socialising after. He might well not have had bad symptoms each time, but each time he has it, he risks transmitting it to others
What is the medical exemption based on ? Do we know ?
It's all bollocks - he is one of, if not the, fittest athletes on the planet.
He has massively achieved if he's been carrying a significant medical condition all these years.
I think his claim is he had covid 6 months ago. If so, that would mean he's had it at least twice as he and others (a lot if not all) involved in some charity tournament (I think he organised) got covid before, (after they were seen socialising after. He might well not have had bad symptoms each time, but each time he has it, he risks transmitting it to others
But my understanding is that the Australian entry conditions specifically exclude previous infection as an exemption.
What is the medical exemption based on ? Do we know ?
It's all bollocks - he is one of, if not the, fittest athletes on the planet.
He has massively achieved if he's been carrying a significant medical condition all these years.
I think his claim is he had covid 6 months ago. If so, that would mean he's had it at least twice as he and others (a lot if not all) involved in some charity tournament (I think he organised) got covid before, (after they were seen socialising after. He might well not have had bad symptoms each time, but each time he has it, he risks transmitting it to others
But my understanding is that the Australian entry conditions specifically exclude previous infection as an exemption.
I wasn't aware of that. I think they are now reporting the tennis authorities accepted his claimed exemption but the government/immigration haven't and don't accept whatever it is. Plus, ironically he (one of his team) applied for the wrong visa for his claimed circumstances.
Not surprisingly, it is getting somewhat out of hand - the reported comments by his parents are ridiculous!
I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up playing and even winning, although the conditions at the hotel are not quite up to his usual standards so not ideal prep. His mummy is upset because 'he is being treated like a common criminal and held prisoner' and can't use his money and status to buy his way out and go to a better hotel or rented house and daddy has liken him to Jesus being crucified.
Is it 100% certain that he's being deported due to not being vaccinated?
no, he's appealed the deportation and that'll be heard on Monday.
still not clear if there is a problem with his forms/claim for being exempt or if its just the politicians using peoples outrage at him not being vaxed to score points.
I used to think Novak was a bit of a dick but now he's reached bellend status. If he doesn't play I'm assuming Serbia will declare war on Australia.
I thought the funniest/saddest part of all this was his Dad ranting about "Australia" wanting to "stomp over Serbia". Sorry to say this when one of my best mates here is Serbian, but they can really play the victim card as well as any Spanners.
I have very little sympathy for Djokavic, but a lot for Natalia Vikhlyantseva, the Russian player who, despite being double-jabbed, had not been able to compete, because the vaccine is not included in the list of accepted vaccines.
I saw a clip of his mother claiming he’s being held like a common criminal. What utter bollox. He can ask to go to the nearest airport “at any time he so chooses” and get the first flight out of there to more or less wherever he wants.
Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
And a country is entitled to define what they accept for entry. You have to accept you will not be admitted if you don't comply. No special circs because (you think) you're extra special. Your choice and their choice
A country is entitled to make their rules, yes, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged.
Should a country be allowed to refuse entry to triple vaccinated British citizens with a negative test, as is currently the case in the UK, isn't it?
Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
And a country is entitled to define what they accept for entry. You have to accept you will not be admitted if you don't comply. No special circs because (you think) you're extra special. Your choice and their choice
Should a country be allowed to refuse entry to triple vaccinated British citizens with a negative test, as is currently the case in the UK, isn't it?
If that’s their choice, absolutely, no one has a divine right to enter a foreign country.
I used to think Novak was a bit of a dick but now he's reached bellend status. If he doesn't play I'm assuming Serbia will declare war on Australia.
I thought the funniest/saddest part of all this was his Dad ranting about "Australia" wanting to "stomp over Serbia". Sorry to say this when one of my best mates here is Serbian, but they can really play the victim card as well as any Spanners.
Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
And a country is entitled to define what they accept for entry. You have to accept you will not be admitted if you don't comply. No special circs because (you think) you're extra special. Your choice and their choice
A country is entitled to make their rules, yes, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged.
Should a country be allowed to refuse entry to triple vaccinated British citizens with a negative test, as is currently the case in the UK, isn't it?
Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
And a country is entitled to define what they accept for entry. You have to accept you will not be admitted if you don't comply. No special circs because (you think) you're extra special. Your choice and their choice
Should a country be allowed to refuse entry to triple vaccinated British citizens with a negative test, as is currently the case in the UK, isn't it?
If that’s their choice, absolutely, no one has a divine right to enter a foreign country.
I'm not talking about a foreign country. I'm talking about British citizens entering Britain.
Comments
And secondly, not at all, some of your points were very good!
;-)
In the same way that's his choice, Australia has the choice who to admit into their country and can set their rules for their country
But my understanding is that the Australian entry conditions specifically exclude previous infection as an exemption.
Not surprisingly, it is getting somewhat out of hand - the reported comments by his parents are ridiculous!
I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up playing and even winning, although the conditions at the hotel are not quite up to his usual standards so not ideal prep. His mummy is upset because 'he is being treated like a common criminal and held prisoner' and can't use his money and status to buy his way out and go to a better hotel or rented house and daddy has liken him to Jesus being crucified.
still not clear if there is a problem with his forms/claim for being exempt or if its just the politicians using peoples outrage at him not being vaxed to score points.
Where's that?
Should a country be allowed to refuse entry to triple vaccinated British citizens with a negative test, as is currently the case in the UK, isn't it?
I'm not talking about a foreign country. I'm talking about British citizens entering Britain.