just proves that freedom of choice and freedom from the consequences of that choice are different.
Djokovic was free to have the vaccine or not. He was not free from that choice having an impact on him.
I have no massive issue if people don’t want the vaccine. I also have no massive issue if governments or businesses decided that those who chose not to are, for example, not allowed to work in a Care home or hospital.
Good for Scott Morrison. Could be a watershed moment in the fight against anti vaxxers.
By all accounts he's jumping in now to make it look like his decision when it wasn't and he was asking the State for Djokovic to be given a visa.
Im not a Morrison fan but to be fair yesterday before Novax arrived he did say quite clearly that he would be thoroughly checked out and if anything was not in order he would be packed off on the next flight home.
heres the quote fromMorrison prior to the flights arrival.
AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER SCOTT MORRISON
"We await his presentation and what evidence he provides us to support that (exemption). If that evidence is insufficient, then he won't be treated any different to anyone else and he'll be on the next plane home. There should be no special rules for Novak Djokovic at all. None whatsoever."
However, having lived here through the lockdowns I think it was a massive mistake to even let him fly here in the first place. So many people here have been unable to fly home for sick loved ones and funerals (including myself). This hasn't just applied to overseas flights but also cross border flights within Australia, so even allowing this dickhead to fly was a massive slap in the face for those of us who desperately wanted to say farewell to loved ones and were unable to do so.
I think that the only reason he was granted exemption was due to money, plain and simple....a couple of players here were interviewed and whilst they didnt say it was a farce what they did imply was that it was "interesting considering what people in Victoria and Australia have been through" regarding lockdowns
As an aside, 91.6% of the population aged 16 and over are now at least double vaccinated. Victoria has been under lock down's for a total of 262 days.
I’m on the fence with this one. I use to be undecided but I’m not so sure now🤔… Let me first say that I had Covid when it first started doing the rounds and have since been tripled vaccinated 🤗. But I’m still leaning towards the support of those that don’t want to be vaccinated as to what the problem is🧐? I can still carry the virus even though I’ve been vaccinated and so can those that are not vaccinated. The only difference I believe is that should i contract the virus again it is very unlikely that it will result in my demise or hopefully not to have a long term issues. Those that don’t have the vaccine are at a higher risk of dying or suffering serious illnesses. Surely that is the choice of those people that don’t want the vaccine? And back to the original point, in that the tennis player doesn’t want the vaccine but wants to play in the tournament. Is he a higher risk of bringing the virus into Australia than the vaccinated players? What the dilemma is is that Australian Government has got their knickers in a twist by applying double standards and I totally support the uproar that the government will face from its citizens. 😤
Oops up side again i said oops up side again. 🥸
The problem is that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more people end up hospitalised. That then directly leads to 7hr waits for ambulances, operations being cancelled, diagnosis' being delayed, etc.
You could just refuse to treat unvaccinated people. Leave the NHS free to treat those who have bothered to get vaccinated for themselves & for others. That would concentrate minds.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
A friend who was in HMRC policy suggested raising taxes on those that won’t get vaccinated to make up for the cost to the NHS and the economy.
I thought he was joking, but actually the more I think about it the more I see there’s a certain amount of logic behind it.
The tax on cigarettes and alcohol is so high for similar reasons.
If that's the intelligence level of policy makers in HMRC we're all doomed - his suggestion is nonsense on so many levels.
I don’t agree.
It would be simple to implement, would raise revenue, and would lead to an increase in the percentage of the population that are vaccinated.
People objected to increases in taxation on alcohol and cigarettes at first, but it’s accepted now.
No one would be forcing anyone to be vaccinated, but those choosing that path should pay a premium to society to make up for the damage they cause, just like we do when we buy cigarettes and alcohol.
"The whole of Serbia is with him and our authorities are undertaking all measures in order that maltreatment of the world's best tennis player ends as soon as possible," Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic said after speaking with Djokovic over the phone.
"In line with all standards of international public law, Serbia will fight for Novak Djokovic, justice and truth."
"The whole of Serbia is with him and our authorities are undertaking all measures in order that maltreatment of the world's best tennis player ends as soon as possible," Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic said after speaking with Djokovic over the phone.
"In line with all standards of international public law, Serbia will fight for Novak Djokovic, justice and truth."
I’m on the fence with this one. I use to be undecided but I’m not so sure now🤔… Let me first say that I had Covid when it first started doing the rounds and have since been tripled vaccinated 🤗. But I’m still leaning towards the support of those that don’t want to be vaccinated as to what the problem is🧐? I can still carry the virus even though I’ve been vaccinated and so can those that are not vaccinated. The only difference I believe is that should i contract the virus again it is very unlikely that it will result in my demise or hopefully not to have a long term issues. Those that don’t have the vaccine are at a higher risk of dying or suffering serious illnesses. Surely that is the choice of those people that don’t want the vaccine? And back to the original point, in that the tennis player doesn’t want the vaccine but wants to play in the tournament. Is he a higher risk of bringing the virus into Australia than the vaccinated players? What the dilemma is is that Australian Government has got their knickers in a twist by applying double standards and I totally support the uproar that the government will face from its citizens. 😤
Oops up side again i said oops up side again. 🥸
The problem is that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more people end up hospitalised. That then directly leads to 7hr waits for ambulances, operations being cancelled, diagnosis' being delayed, etc.
You could just refuse to treat unvaccinated people. Leave the NHS free to treat those who have bothered to get vaccinated for themselves & for others. That would concentrate minds.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
I’m on the fence with this one. I use to be undecided but I’m not so sure now🤔… Let me first say that I had Covid when it first started doing the rounds and have since been tripled vaccinated 🤗. But I’m still leaning towards the support of those that don’t want to be vaccinated as to what the problem is🧐? I can still carry the virus even though I’ve been vaccinated and so can those that are not vaccinated. The only difference I believe is that should i contract the virus again it is very unlikely that it will result in my demise or hopefully not to have a long term issues. Those that don’t have the vaccine are at a higher risk of dying or suffering serious illnesses. Surely that is the choice of those people that don’t want the vaccine? And back to the original point, in that the tennis player doesn’t want the vaccine but wants to play in the tournament. Is he a higher risk of bringing the virus into Australia than the vaccinated players? What the dilemma is is that Australian Government has got their knickers in a twist by applying double standards and I totally support the uproar that the government will face from its citizens. 😤
Oops up side again i said oops up side again. 🥸
The problem is that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more people end up hospitalised. That then directly leads to 7hr waits for ambulances, operations being cancelled, diagnosis' being delayed, etc.
You could just refuse to treat unvaccinated people. Leave the NHS free to treat those who have bothered to get vaccinated for themselves & for others. That would concentrate minds.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
Nor should it ever happen.
Your right Bob it should never happen. BUT - today I have a pre-med appointment at the Norfolk and Norwich hospital. I am expecting to have a operation in the coming days (in fact another soon after). My appointment time for the pre-med has been changed due to staff sickness. Because I have not been informed of my date for the operation, I will not know if it will be delayed due to staff sickness etc. It does focus the mind when it affects oneself. I do feel angry that my treatment and that of others is being affected by those who will not, or do not have the jab. According to Johnson 90% of those taking hospital beds have not been jabbed. I do wonder if we've got this arse about face. Maybe instead of cancelling appointments for those waiting for treatment, we should fill beds with anti vaxer's only when beds become available after those with genuine need have been treated. Of course it would never happen but it's a very annoying situation.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
It's all been handled terribly - if Novak does play it's hardly great preparation and he'll get a frosty reception.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
It's all been handled terribly - if Novak does play it's hardly great preparation and he'll get a frosty reception.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
I do wonder if Novak wouldn’t have tweeted anything and just arrived whether any of this would have made the headlines.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
It's all been handled terribly - if Novak does play it's hardly great preparation and he'll get a frosty reception.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
I do wonder if Novak wouldn’t have tweeted anything and just arrived whether any of this would have made the headlines.
His team seem pretty clueless about PR and the Australian Government have hardly covered themselves in glory.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
It's all been handled terribly - if Novak does play it's hardly great preparation and he'll get a frosty reception.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
I do wonder if Novak wouldn’t have tweeted anything and just arrived whether any of this would have made the headlines.
His team seem pretty clueless about PR and the Australian Government have hardly covered themselves in glory.
Hasn't he recently recovered from Covid? If you're following the science, he poses no threat.
I know the rules are the rules, but if there's no exemption for naturally acquired immunity, then the rules are stupid.
If he has an exemption and has provided the necessary details and the correct visa then I'm sure he"d be in by now? I'm not sure if we are getting the full story.
Does sound like a political U turn. Exception was given, the Australian public and the media reacted badly and politicians have come to the rescue by looking strong on immigration and the boarders.
It's all been handled terribly - if Novak does play it's hardly great preparation and he'll get a frosty reception.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
I do wonder if Novak wouldn’t have tweeted anything and just arrived whether any of this would have made the headlines.
His team seem pretty clueless about PR and the Australian Government have hardly covered themselves in glory.
What have the Australian government done wrong?
Their stance seems confused - I assume we'll get the full story eventually.
Hasn't he recently recovered from Covid? If you're following the science, he poses no threat.
I know the rules are the rules, but if there's no exemption for naturally acquired immunity, then the rules are stupid.
If he has an exemption and has provided the necessary details and the correct visa then I'm sure he"d be in by now? I'm not sure if we are getting the full story.
Which is fine for the state of Victoria, not for the Federal border which doesn't allow past infection to excuse you from vaccination
I’m on the fence with this one. I use to be undecided but I’m not so sure now🤔… Let me first say that I had Covid when it first started doing the rounds and have since been tripled vaccinated 🤗. But I’m still leaning towards the support of those that don’t want to be vaccinated as to what the problem is🧐? I can still carry the virus even though I’ve been vaccinated and so can those that are not vaccinated. The only difference I believe is that should i contract the virus again it is very unlikely that it will result in my demise or hopefully not to have a long term issues. Those that don’t have the vaccine are at a higher risk of dying or suffering serious illnesses. Surely that is the choice of those people that don’t want the vaccine? And back to the original point, in that the tennis player doesn’t want the vaccine but wants to play in the tournament. Is he a higher risk of bringing the virus into Australia than the vaccinated players? What the dilemma is is that Australian Government has got their knickers in a twist by applying double standards and I totally support the uproar that the government will face from its citizens. 😤
Oops up side again i said oops up side again. 🥸
The problem is that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more people end up hospitalised. That then directly leads to 7hr waits for ambulances, operations being cancelled, diagnosis' being delayed, etc.
You could just refuse to treat unvaccinated people. Leave the NHS free to treat those who have bothered to get vaccinated for themselves & for others. That would concentrate minds.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
Nor should it ever happen.
Your right Bob it should never happen. BUT - today I have a pre-med appointment at the Norfolk and Norwich hospital. I am expecting to have a operation in the coming days (in fact another soon after). My appointment time for the pre-med has been changed due to staff sickness. Because I have not been informed of my date for the operation, I will not know if it will be delayed due to staff sickness etc. It does focus the mind when it affects oneself. I do feel angry that my treatment and that of others is being affected by those who will not, or do not have the jab. According to Johnson 90% of those taking hospital beds have not been jabbed. I do wonder if we've got this arse about face. Maybe instead of cancelling appointments for those waiting for treatment, we should fill beds with anti vaxer's only when beds become available after those with genuine need have been treated. Of course it would never happen but it's a very annoying situation.
Posted on another tread. Interesting development. Just had a phone call from the hospital regarding my Pre-op. Nurse rang asking about meds I was talking, trying to get ahead of my appointment this afternoon. So I commented about media suggesting they were very busy and very tongue in cheek said maybe they have got the priorities wrong (see arse about face). She laughed and while sympathizing with my view said that couldn't happen as those being admitted to hospital are very sick. She did say however that what frustrates them is that folk do not trust the vaccine but trust the NHS to make them recover. No date yet for my opp.
Hasn't he recently recovered from Covid? If you're following the science, he poses no threat.
I know the rules are the rules, but if there's no exemption for naturally acquired immunity, then the rules are stupid.
If he has an exemption and has provided the necessary details and the correct visa then I'm sure he"d be in by now? I'm not sure if we are getting the full story.
Which is fine for the state of Victoria, not for the Federal border which doesn't allow past infection to excuse you from vaccination
If it was not clear I don't understand how it has got this far? Seems amazing if Novak and his entourage travelled to Australia if there was uncertainty over his admission.
A friend who was in HMRC policy suggested raising taxes on those that won’t get vaccinated to make up for the cost to the NHS and the economy.
I thought he was joking, but actually the more I think about it the more I see there’s a certain amount of logic behind it.
The tax on cigarettes and alcohol is so high for similar reasons.
If that's the intelligence level of policy makers in HMRC we're all doomed - his suggestion is nonsense on so many levels.
I don’t agree.
It would be simple to implement, would raise revenue, and would lead to an increase in the percentage of the population that are vaccinated.
People objected to increases in taxation on alcohol and cigarettes at first, but it’s accepted now.
No one would be forcing anyone to be vaccinated, but those choosing that path should pay a premium to society to make up for the damage they cause, just like we do when we buy cigarettes and alcohol.
How would such a tax be collected?
Tax on cigarettes, alcohol etc. is collected at the point of purchase so unless the unvaccinated needed to wear a badge so that they could be charged more, you cant equate it to "sin" taxes.
I suppose you could collect a tax on the unvaccinated through PAYE for those that are payroll, or self assessment for those that aren't. The whole tax process would need to be updated regularly and require significant investment in tech and enforcement as either the NHS database and the HMRC database would need to integrate or it would be reliant on self declaration (which would require investigation).
Of course, in that case, we would also need to reduce the benefits for those unvaccinated that don't work to ensure its equitably applied.
What if someone does get vaccinated half way through the tax year? Is it proportionate or absolute? If the latter we will see a rush for vaccinations on April 5th to ensure a full year benefit of money and health.
What is HMRCs definition of vaccinated? 1 jab, 2 jabs, 2 jabs and a booster (and any subsequent boosters?)
If its proved that vaccines offer less protection over time, to the point that they don't offer protection and / or we move to endemic status or less, can the unvaccinated claim a proportionate refund?
Should we also tax amateur footballers and rugby players at the same time? I've been to A&E on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning? Its full of people in muddy kit....
A friend who was in HMRC policy suggested raising taxes on those that won’t get vaccinated to make up for the cost to the NHS and the economy.
I thought he was joking, but actually the more I think about it the more I see there’s a certain amount of logic behind it.
The tax on cigarettes and alcohol is so high for similar reasons.
If that's the intelligence level of policy makers in HMRC we're all doomed - his suggestion is nonsense on so many levels.
I don’t agree.
It would be simple to implement, would raise revenue, and would lead to an increase in the percentage of the population that are vaccinated.
People objected to increases in taxation on alcohol and cigarettes at first, but it’s accepted now.
No one would be forcing anyone to be vaccinated, but those choosing that path should pay a premium to society to make up for the damage they cause, just like we do when we buy cigarettes and alcohol.
How would such a tax be collected?
Tax on cigarettes, alcohol etc. is collected at the point of purchase so unless the unvaccinated needed to wear a badge so that they could be charged more, you cant equate it to "sin" taxes.
I suppose you could collect a tax on the unvaccinated through PAYE for those that are payroll, or self assessment for those that aren't. The whole tax process would need to be updated regularly and require significant investment in tech and enforcement as either the NHS database and the HMRC database would need to integrate or it would be reliant on self declaration (which would require investigation).
Of course, in that case, we would also need to reduce the benefits for those unvaccinated that don't work to ensure its equitably applied.
What if someone does get vaccinated half way through the tax year? Is it proportionate or absolute? If the latter we will see a rush for vaccinations on April 5th to ensure a full year benefit of money and health.
What is HMRCs definition of vaccinated? 1 jab, 2 jabs, 2 jabs and a booster (and any subsequent boosters?)
If its proved that vaccines offer less protection over time, to the point that they don't offer protection and / or we move to endemic status or less, can the unvaccinated claim a proportionate refund?
Should we also tax amateur footballers and rugby players at the same time? I've been to A&E on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning? Its full of people in muddy kit....
Don't forget the many acts/laws that cover equality and discrimination.
Seems they could be rode roughshod over by many people that are usually the staunchest supporters of the upholding of said acts/laws.
Some of the overreactions to this is crazy. People are entitled to decide whether they want to be vaccinated or not. I for one am vaccinated but respect other peoples choices if they don’t want to be
He's made his choice, just as you suggest he's entitled to do. Since the Australian government haven't prevented him from making that choice, what precisely do you think they have done wrong here?
Genuinely interested in your response (and not in a Chizz way) as it opens up an interesting discussion on personal freedoms, the ability to make decisions, and the consequences of making those decisions...
Comments
Djokovic was free to have the vaccine or not. He was not free from that choice having an impact on him.
I have no massive issue if people don’t want the vaccine. I also have no massive issue if governments or businesses decided that those who chose not to are, for example, not allowed to work in a Care home or hospital.
heres the quote fromMorrison prior to the flights arrival.
AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER SCOTT MORRISON
"We await his presentation and what evidence he provides us to support that (exemption). If that evidence is insufficient, then he won't be treated any different to anyone else and he'll be on the next plane home. There should be no special rules for Novak Djokovic at all. None whatsoever."
However, having lived here through the lockdowns I think it was a massive mistake to even let him fly here in the first place. So many people here have been unable to fly home for sick loved ones and funerals (including myself). This hasn't just applied to overseas flights but also cross border flights within Australia, so even allowing this dickhead to fly was a massive slap in the face for those of us who desperately wanted to say farewell to loved ones and were unable to do so.
I think that the only reason he was granted exemption was due to money, plain and simple....a couple of players here were interviewed and whilst they didnt say it was a farce what they did imply was that it was "interesting considering what people in Victoria and Australia have been through" regarding lockdowns
As an aside, 91.6% of the population aged 16 and over are now at least double vaccinated. Victoria has been under lock down's for a total of 262 days.
If that's the intelligence level of policy makers in HMRC we're all doomed - his suggestion is nonsense on so many levels.
Never going to happen though.... so I just sleep soundly knowing that I have protected myself by being triple vaccinated.
I'm here all week
"The whole of Serbia is with him and our authorities are undertaking all measures in order that maltreatment of the world's best tennis player ends as soon as possible," Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic said after speaking with Djokovic over the phone.
"In line with all standards of international public law, Serbia will fight for Novak Djokovic, justice and truth."
In the end, I think he'll be allowed to play
**NSFW**
https://youtube.com/shorts/DO1OnL-AUBE?feature=share
Nor should it ever happen.
BUT - today I have a pre-med appointment at the Norfolk and Norwich hospital.
I am expecting to have a operation in the coming days (in fact another soon after).
My appointment time for the pre-med has been changed due to staff sickness.
Because I have not been informed of my date for the operation, I will not know if it will be delayed due to staff sickness etc.
It does focus the mind when it affects oneself.
I do feel angry that my treatment and that of others is being affected by those who will not, or do not have the jab.
According to Johnson 90% of those taking hospital beds have not been jabbed.
I do wonder if we've got this arse about face.
Maybe instead of cancelling appointments for those waiting for treatment, we should fill beds with anti vaxer's only when beds become available after those with genuine need have been treated.
Of course it would never happen but it's a very annoying situation.
Novak will become a figurehead for many - just create further division.
I know the rules are the rules, but if there's no exemption for naturally acquired immunity, then the rules are stupid.
Interesting development.
Just had a phone call from the hospital regarding my Pre-op.
Nurse rang asking about meds I was talking, trying to get ahead of my appointment this afternoon.
So I commented about media suggesting they were very busy and very tongue in cheek said maybe they have got the priorities wrong (see arse about face).
She laughed and while sympathizing with my view said that couldn't happen as those being admitted to hospital are very sick.
She did say however that what frustrates them is that folk do not trust the vaccine but trust the NHS to make them recover.
No date yet for my opp.
Tax on cigarettes, alcohol etc. is collected at the point of purchase so unless the unvaccinated needed to wear a badge so that they could be charged more, you cant equate it to "sin" taxes.
I suppose you could collect a tax on the unvaccinated through PAYE for those that are payroll, or self assessment for those that aren't. The whole tax process would need to be updated regularly and require significant investment in tech and enforcement as either the NHS database and the HMRC database would need to integrate or it would be reliant on self declaration (which would require investigation).
Of course, in that case, we would also need to reduce the benefits for those unvaccinated that don't work to ensure its equitably applied.
What if someone does get vaccinated half way through the tax year? Is it proportionate or absolute? If the latter we will see a rush for vaccinations on April 5th to ensure a full year benefit of money and health.
What is HMRCs definition of vaccinated? 1 jab, 2 jabs, 2 jabs and a booster (and any subsequent boosters?)
If its proved that vaccines offer less protection over time, to the point that they don't offer protection and / or we move to endemic status or less, can the unvaccinated claim a proportionate refund?
Should we also tax amateur footballers and rugby players at the same time? I've been to A&E on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning? Its full of people in muddy kit....
Seems they could be rode roughshod over by many people that are usually the staunchest supporters of the upholding of said acts/laws.
Genuinely interested in your response (and not in a Chizz way) as it opens up an interesting discussion on personal freedoms, the ability to make decisions, and the consequences of making those decisions...