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The mathematics of relegation

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  • iaitch said:
    Beat Bristol City over Christmas 3-2 after being 2-1 behind.
    Have we won a game in which we've conceded first?
    Not this season. You have to go back to Wembley
  • Am I right that as it stands:

    The Rule Breakers
    Wigan can get a total of 51 points (post 12pt deduction) - Still to face Charlton and Fulham
    Sheffield can only get a max of 50 points (post 12pt deduction - if it will even be applied) - Still to face Fulham and Middlesborough

    The Slackers
    Barnsley can only get a total of 49 points - Facing Forest and Brentford
    Luton can only get a max of 51 - but must beat Hull to do so otherwise 49 points - facing Blackburn in the final fixture
    Hull can only get a max of 51 - but must beat Luton to do so otherwise 49 points - facing Cardiff in the final fixture

    The Drowned Haddocks
    Charlton can achieve 53 points facing Wigan and Leeds.

    The Yorkie Terriers
    Huddersfield can achieve 54 points, but have to overcome West Brom and Millwall to do so. 

    Meaning the perfect results are 

    Charlton vs Wigan - Charlton
    Sheffield vs Fulham - Fulham
    Barnsley vs Forest - Anything but a win. 
    Luton vs Hull - Draw
    Huddersfield vs WestBrom - West Brom
    (Charlton Safe, Barnsley Relegated)

    Wigan vs Fulham - Fulham
    Sheffield vs Middlesborough - M'Boro
    Barnsley vs Brentford - Anything.
    Luton vs Blackburn - B'Burn
    Hull vs Cardiff - Cardiff
    Charlton vs Leeds - Charlton Obvs - but in the prediction I've given it to Leeds
    Huddersfield vs Millwall - Millwall

    I think this ends up with 

    16 - Stoke - 50pts
    17 - Charlton - 50pts
    18 - Birmingham - 50pts
    19 - Huddersfield - 48pts
    20 - Hull - 46pts
    21 - Luton - 46pts
    22 - Wigan (R) - 45pts (57pts)
    23 - Sheffield Wednesday (R) - 44pts (56pts)
    24 - Barnsley (R) - 43pts


  • edited July 2020
    In another prediction I've run I've allowed all the current relegation rivals to get max points, but where they play relegation rivals a draw is given - Wednesday lose both... Just because and Wigan pick up a win and a draw:

    16 - Birmingham - 56pts
    17 - QPR - 54pts
    18 - Hudds - 54pts
    19 - Charlton - 51 pts
    20 - Wigan - 49pts (61pts)
    21 - Barnsley - 49 pts
    22 - Luton (R) - 49pts
    23 - Hull (R) - 49 points 
    24 - Sheffield Wednesday (R) - 44pts (56pts)
  • I'm not running the worst case scenario for all or any team... 

    Supa Dupa head burying in the sand. 
    head first gifs  WiffleGif
  • Dazzler21 said:
    In another prediction I've run I've allowed all the current relegation rivals to get max points, but where they play relegation rivals a draw is given - Wednesday lose both... Just because and Wigan pick up a win and a draw:

    16 - Birmingham - 56pts
    17 - QPR - 54pts
    18 - Hudds - 54pts
    19 - Charlton - 51 pts
    20 - Wigan (R) - 49pts (61pts)
    21 - Barnsley - 49 pts
    22 - Luton - 49pts
    23 - Hull (R) - 49 points 
    24 - Sheffield Wednesday (R) - 44pts (56pts)
    Why are Wigan relegated on 49 points  ??  They have a much better goal difference than the other teams on 49.
  • edited July 2020
    Dazzler21 said:
    In another prediction I've run I've allowed all the current relegation rivals to get max points, but where they play relegation rivals a draw is given - Wednesday lose both... Just because and Wigan pick up a win and a draw:

    16 - Birmingham - 56pts
    17 - QPR - 54pts
    18 - Hudds - 54pts
    19 - Charlton - 51 pts
    20 - Wigan (R) - 49pts (61pts)
    21 - Barnsley - 49 pts
    22 - Luton - 49pts
    23 - Hull (R) - 49 points 
    24 - Sheffield Wednesday (R) - 44pts (56pts)
    Why are Wigan relegated on 49 points  ??  They have a much better goal difference than the other teams on 49.
    I forgot to remove the R but I won't mind if they're relegated ahead of Luton and Barnsley.
  • Dave Rudd said:
    What's R&R?
    Read the first post of the thread.

    Tomorrow's game is massive, lose and we're in deep trouble, win and we put Birmingham in danger and give ourselves some wiggle room. 

    Hmmmmm. OK but why use the same letter for two different things? Why not X&Z for example? 
    We chose R for Relegation.  And there are two numbers (R and R') to deal with the fact that we don't yet know about the fate of Wigan.

    I guess if we'd chosen X and Y, someone might have said "why use different letters for the same thing?"

    Not you, of course ... but someone.
    You obviously don't know him then.....
    Shut up wallybrain
  • Dazzler21 said:
    In another prediction I've run I've allowed all the current relegation rivals to get max points, but where they play relegation rivals a draw is given - Wednesday lose both... Just because and Wigan pick up a win and a draw:

    16 - Birmingham - 56pts
    17 - QPR - 54pts
    18 - Hudds - 54pts
    19 - Charlton - 51 pts
    20 - Wigan - 49pts (61pts)
    21 - Barnsley - 49 pts
    22 - Luton (R) - 49pts
    23 - Hull (R) - 49 points 
    24 - Sheffield Wednesday (R) - 44pts (56pts)
    No need to worry about every other team.

    The only 2 perfect results we need are, we beat Wigan and Hull/Luton draw. Then we're safe despite any results elsewhere.
  • After the 2-2 draw with Wigan, both R and R' drop to 4.

    That will change after the Hull City v Luton game.
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  • If Fulham and hull or Luton win, we will be safe providing the massive get there 12 point deduction. 
  • edited July 2020
    If Fulham and hull or Luton win, we will be safe providing the massive get there 12 point deduction. 
    They will not get a 12 point deduction. 
  • It will be at least 12 points 
  • A point at Leeds should be enough unless final day results go heavily against us.
  • It will be at least 12 points 
    The EFL don't have the balls to do it , especially at this time of the season.
  • A point at Leeds should be enough unless final day results go heavily against us.
    Let's see what grandad "the Oracle" has to say on our VC tomorrow 👍❤️
  • Match Luton and Wigan's results and stay up assuming Barnsley don't beat Forest tomorrow.
  • The Luton win at Hull means that R is now =2 (Wigan and Barnsley are the critical teams), while R' stays at 4 (Luton are critical).

    With only one game each to go now, and with our Goal Difference being so much better than all of the rivals (except Wigan), I'm prepared to take a point off R'. 
  • edited July 2020
    Match Luton and Wigan's results and stay up assuming Barnsley don't beat Forest tomorrow.
    "Only" need to match the worst one of them...

    Wigan Vs Fulham gives me more hope than Luton Vs Blackburn 
  • It’s better than that. Wigan must win, a draw (even if us and Luton lose) isn’t good enough for them.
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  • Whilst Fulham will know that nothing less than a win means they're doomed to the Play-Offs

    Of course they need West Brom / Brentford to lose but bet they'll feel stupid if that happens and they've taken their foot off the gas as they've not expected it

    Bet thats the one that SKY will pick for coverage
  • After last night's sparkling win, you can no longer (easily) get a price on us to be relegated.  If you could, it would be in excess of 100/1.

    However, we are not mathematically safe, of course.  As it stands Gillingham could get 57 points, so the 'R' number (see original post on this thread for the explanation) is currently 15 (that's the 58 we need to be mathematically safe less the 43 points that we already have).

    Note that this 'R' number will decrease as we gain points, but also as Gillingham (or whoever replaces them as the critical team) drop points.

    As others have said, we may already have enough points to survive.  It's a strange season.
  • Dave Rudd said:
    After last night's sparkling win, you can no longer (easily) get a price on us to be relegated.  If you could, it would be in excess of 100/1.

    However, we are not mathematically safe, of course.  As it stands Gillingham could get 57 points, so the 'R' number (see original post on this thread for the explanation) is currently 15 (that's the 58 we need to be mathematically safe less the 43 points that we already have).

    Note that this 'R' number will decrease as we gain points, but also as Gillingham (or whoever replaces them as the critical team) drop points.

    As others have said, we may already have enough points to survive.  It's a strange season.
    With 3 teams needing to achieve at least 10 points from 8 or 9 remaining fixtures, when they've not achieved 1 point per game thus far, makes Charlton's risk of relegation very small indeed.  Not nil, but very small.  Between them Fleetwood and Wimbledon have achieved a total of 2 points in their last 5 (each) fixtures.  Even if Gillingham maintained their current rate of return and surpassed Charlton's points total, it looks most unlikely that the other 4 between us and them will all transform their form by the required factor.
    Which is all very meagre consolation indeed.  Our likely points return (at current rates) of 53 points would rarely avoid relegation from League 1 and would almost never achieve anything as lofty as 16th.  Indeed only 5 of the 8 teams below us have scored fewer goals.  Rarely have so many sides scored so few points this far into a season. 
  • Billy_Mix said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    After last night's sparkling win, you can no longer (easily) get a price on us to be relegated.  If you could, it would be in excess of 100/1.

    However, we are not mathematically safe, of course.  As it stands Gillingham could get 57 points, so the 'R' number (see original post on this thread for the explanation) is currently 15 (that's the 58 we need to be mathematically safe less the 43 points that we already have).

    Note that this 'R' number will decrease as we gain points, but also as Gillingham (or whoever replaces them as the critical team) drop points.

    As others have said, we may already have enough points to survive.  It's a strange season.
    With 3 teams needing to achieve at least 10 points from 8 or 9 remaining fixtures, when they've not achieved 1 point per game thus far, makes Charlton's risk of relegation very small indeed.  Not nil, but very small.  Between them Fleetwood and Wimbledon have achieved a total of 2 points in their last 5 (each) fixtures.  Even if Gillingham maintained their current rate of return and surpassed Charlton's points total, it looks most unlikely that the other 4 between us and them will all transform their form by the required factor.
    Which is all very meagre consolation indeed.  Our likely points return (at current rates) of 53 points would rarely avoid relegation from League 1 and would almost never achieve anything as lofty as 16th.  Indeed only 5 of the 8 teams below us have scored fewer goals.  Rarely have so many sides scored so few points this far into a season. 
    53 points does not usually get you relegated (not once in the last 10 years, internet is too slow to go back further but it is certainly rare). 50 and you can look over your shoulder.
  • I would go out on a limb and say the team finishing 4th from bottom will not get more than 45 points
  • DA9DA9
    edited March 2022
    Billy_Mix said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    After last night's sparkling win, you can no longer (easily) get a price on us to be relegated.  If you could, it would be in excess of 100/1.

    However, we are not mathematically safe, of course.  As it stands Gillingham could get 57 points, so the 'R' number (see original post on this thread for the explanation) is currently 15 (that's the 58 we need to be mathematically safe less the 43 points that we already have).

    Note that this 'R' number will decrease as we gain points, but also as Gillingham (or whoever replaces them as the critical team) drop points.

    As others have said, we may already have enough points to survive.  It's a strange season.
    With 3 teams needing to achieve at least 10 points from 8 or 9 remaining fixtures, when they've not achieved 1 point per game thus far, makes Charlton's risk of relegation very small indeed.  Not nil, but very small.  Between them Fleetwood and Wimbledon have achieved a total of 2 points in their last 5 (each) fixtures.  Even if Gillingham maintained their current rate of return and surpassed Charlton's points total, it looks most unlikely that the other 4 between us and them will all transform their form by the required factor.
    Which is all very meagre consolation indeed.  Our likely points return (at current rates) of 53 points would rarely avoid relegation from League 1 and would almost never achieve anything as lofty as 16th.  Indeed only 5 of the 8 teams below us have scored fewer goals.  Rarely have so many sides scored so few points this far into a season. 
    53 points does not usually get you relegated (not once in the last 10 years, internet is too slow to go back further but it is certainly rare). 50 and you can look over your shoulder.
    I’ve just gone right back to 96/97 season, nobody from then (and likely before) has gone down in the 3rd tier with 53 points, Torquay and Grimsby were relegated closest in 04/05 & 03/04 with 51 & 50 respectively
  • edited March 2022
    CH4RLTON said:
    I would go out on a limb and say the team finishing 4th from bottom will not get more than 45 points

    I'll go even more out on a limb and say that there will be a team finishing with about 45 points which isn't relegated.
  • Today's win coupled with the two points dropped by Gillingham sees the 'R' number reduced to 10.
  • edited March 2022
    Dave Rudd said:
    Today's win coupled with the two points dropped by Gillingham sees the 'R' number reduced to 10.
    Are you going to serve up this tripe after every match? The team finishing 21st will not get 46 points.
  • I for one like Daves thread...dont listen to him Dave!
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