There is a culture in football of not making complaints. Indeed, I can think of times in my working career where I considered moving on was better than making a fuss and being labelled a trouble maker. It doesn't always help your career.
I know it was totally different in many ways, but Curbs taking West Ham to a tribunal is an example. He was totally vindicated but didn't work as a manager again despite a fantastic record.
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
admitted its strange for a pro footballer to start crying but this is what i'm told and that was the tipping point - for me, he threw a lot of players under the bus and publicly dug players out last year and this before that but this was the final straw apparently - just his crap tactics have been enough for me.
Why is it strange for a man, a young man, to cry in an emotional charged situation?
coz my natural reaction would be to tell somebody who was digging me out to fuck off and if they carried on it would get physical - crying would be the last thing i would do
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
admitted its strange for a pro footballer to start crying but this is what i'm told and that was the tipping point - for me, he threw a lot of players under the bus and publicly dug players out last year and this before that but this was the final straw apparently - just his crap tactics have been enough for me.
Why is it strange for a man, a young man, to cry in an emotional charged situation?
coz my natural reaction would be to tell somebody who was digging me out to fuck off and if they carried on it would get physical - crying would be the last thing i would do
That doesn't make it strange though does it. Your natural reaction doesn't mean it should be everyone else's.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Bowyer ruined the season and our chances of promotion at Shrewsbury away. First his negative tactics cost us 3 points against a very poor team and secondly calling out Williams publicly on the tackle and subbing him shortly after bringing him on. I'm sure the way he was treated pissed a lot of the players off as well as costing us 2 more points. Then onto the next game Williams is on the bench against Wimbledon, comes on does the business scores 1 and sets up another only to be dropped again the following game against Swindon not even coming when we were crying out for an attacking midfielder to come on and help kill the game off costing us another 2 points. Ever since that period in the season the players have never looked the same again and who can blame. With the constant outbursts and calling out even more players since January it's no wonder they dont give a shit anymore.
You can even say Bowyers demise began even a few days before the Swindon game when he blamed the 2000 fans at the MK match for not being more vocal when the game was shit and we had nothing to shout about. Since the new year its just been a desperate situation where its obvious the players dont want to play for him, so his constantly make 5 changes a game, desperate subs and blaming anyone and everyone publicly but himself to save face. Bloke needs to go before he does anymore damage to the club.
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
He was refreshingly honest about his mental health in that documentary, why speculate about him crying?
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Williams may also have had his own problems.
The players putting this out into the public arena need to have a good look at themselves. I think it is a despicable thing to do. Williams seems to be liked by everyone and deserves so much better from his old team mates. Makes him sound weak and I don’t think he is. I have to say that if I had learnt something like this from a player I would not be putting it out there. Ironic that Bowyer is being accused of bullying, and is now being bullied.
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
He was refreshingly honest about his mental health in that documentary, why speculate about him crying?
Because someone had literally said they have heard Bowyer made him cry.
Bowyer ruined the season and our chances of promotion at Shrewsbury away. First his negative tactics cost us 3 points against a very poor team and secondly calling out Williams publicly on the tackle and subbing him shortly after bringing him on. I'm sure the way he was treated pissed a lot of the players off as well as costing us 2 more points. Then onto the next game Williams is on the bench against Wimbledon, comes on does the business scores 1 and sets up another only to be dropped again the following game against Swindon not even coming when we were crying out for an attacking midfielder to come on and help kill the game off costing us another 2 points. Ever since that period in the season the players have never looked the same again and who can blame. With the constant outbursts and calling out even more players since January it's no wonder they dont give a shit anymore.
You can even say Bowyers demise began even a few days before the Swindon game when he blamed the 2000 fans at the MK match for not being more vocal when the game was shit and we had nothing to shout about. Since the new year its just been a desperate situation where its obvious the players dont want to play for him, so his constantly make 5 changes a game, desperate subs and blaming anyone and everyone publicly but himself to save face. Bloke needs to go before he does anymore damage to the club.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Williams may also have had his own problems.
The players putting this out into the public arena need to have a good look at themselves. I think it is a despicable thing to do. Williams seems to be liked by everyone and deserves so much better from his old team mates. Makes him sound weak and I don’t think he is. I have to say that if I had learnt something like this from a player I would not be putting it out there. Ironic that Bowyer is being accused of bullying, and is now being bullied.
That's it. If you want an illustration of my point about delusional fans, here you go.
What it is important to say is that sometimes people snap and it isn't their intention to feed information.
I think J Block and myself have not given the detail of what we know (from different players and different sources) or which player is responsible. But obviously, if you know something you believe is wrong it is hard to support the people/person you think are in the wrong. Especially when it isn't a massive leap to predict and then see the damage it is doing.
The players got told a few home truths today by one of our own at Euston station, I think with no fans allowed in they have got off very lightly with the shit they have served up. A few took it on board but were left knowing their performances and attitudes are not acceptable.
Yea but did they start crying?
If what @Doucher has posted above about Bowyer reducing Williams to tears is true then no wonder the team has just downed tools. And if it is true and TS knows it is, then the lack of action by TS in getting rid of Bowyer is unbelievable.
Bloody big IF
the info comes from more than one charlton player - not chucks
The if I was referring to was whether TS knows of Bows behaviour.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
I have frequently been moved to tears by watching Charlton this season - been very upsetting. I think Bows is getting the team to play badly to upset me.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
He was refreshingly honest about his mental health in that documentary, why speculate about him crying?
Because someone had literally said they have heard Bowyer made him cry.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
Stand for what, we would need the full story? For all we know Williams got subbed after coming on as sub and went to the dressing room and burst into tears.
Alternatively, Bowyer could have verbally anihilated the guy and he burst into tears.
Either way if players are going to burst into tears after a bollocking I would expect it to happen at nearly every game.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
If there's one player I could see crying it would be Williams. He looked like he was going to burst into tears in that Sunderland documentary. I can't recall if anyone else was in the room other than the interviewer.
He was refreshingly honest about his mental health in that documentary, why speculate about him crying?
Because someone had literally said they have heard Bowyer made him cry.
Still distasteful imo
Nobody is saying there is anything wrong with crying, but if you're trying to figure out if a story about the manager bringing a player to tears has any truth to it - surely how believable it is that the player in question is the type of person who might cry is relevant? Doesn't make Williams less of a man, just maybe adds credence to the story. If some said Bowyer had made Jason Pearce cry, it'd either be harder to believe or an indication Bowyer said something really bad.
Players may think, and to be clear that this is speculation rather than known fact, that if they are not going to be here next season they are best riding this out rather than sticking their heads above the parapet. Doesn't stop them being angry or venting their spleen in the moment or talking behind the manager's back.
I would be surprised if Sandgaard or Roddy has received an official complaint or are likely to receive one. Directly wronged players like Williams, Maddison and Bogle have moved on and no doubt others will follow.
If bowyer has been bullying to the levels suggested by a few on here then I’d be surprised if someone hasn’t filed an official complaint to those above. I’d have thought at least one player or staff member would have thought enough is enough and bowyer needs to be stopped or have a warning set against him.
Initially I thought this but the dressing room culture of young men is a very macho setting. Who would really want to show how affected they were by this kind of bullying ? Better to keep your head down. It’s how bullies and bullying works. Even senior pros who might have the experience and status to speak out might just find it easier to stay out of it. No idea if the allegations are true and I really hope they’re not. It could explain what looks like the players not playing for him but there could be other reasons for our form. What a mess we’re in perhaps not just on the pitch.
One man's straight talking is another man's bullying. No idea what has gone on or what has been said to who, but we know Bowyer doesn't really sugar coat things, he speaks his mind, even in interviews, and he;s not really too bothered if it ruffles a few feathers. He's quite old school in that respect - entirely possible he's been giving what he probably feels are a few home s truths to players and some of them maybe don't appreciate the way the message is being delivered. Possibly a bit of a generational divide there too - it's a generalization, but people over a certain age always tend to think people under a certain age are a bit soft.
I don't believe Bowyer is a bully or is out to deliberately upset or belittle anyone, but entirely possible that he's too blunt for some people and that his manner has upset some.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
Yeah that worked well didn't it. A well know fact Orient went on the longest winning run in history after that. Or maybe they didn't
You can't treat every player the same if you want to get the best out of them. Ferguson was the master of it. Ince and another player were walking off the pitch at Selhurst after the Cantona "incident" and laughing how Fergie was going to rip in to him. Once in the dressing room he launched into Ince and another player for some minor mistakes for about 10 minutes, then, calmly turned to Eric and said "you can't do that son".
Even the greats get it wrong, not even Clough could get it right every time.
If you want to try the amateur psychology you either have to get it right 99% of the time or be prepared for it to blow up on your face.
I don’t mind managers tearing into people if they aren’t doing their job to a degree. However, Williams has played under some decent managers in his career and I think for him to come to tears (if this is true btw) then Bowyer must have stepped way over the line.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
No disrespect to Doucher, who I'm sure is just repeating what he's heard, but I just can't see it being true. If it had happened, I'm pretty sure JJ wouldn't stand for it, the player revolt would've got back to TS & Bowyer would be long gone by now.
I know this to be 100% true.
What to be 100% true ?
That Bowyer said some incredibly harsh things to JW in front of the entire squad, bringing him to tears. I know several of the more senior pros stepped in and have those same pros have since confirmed that the level of respect the players have for LB is at an all time low.
Comments
I know it was totally different in many ways, but Curbs taking West Ham to a tribunal is an example. He was totally vindicated but didn't work as a manager again despite a fantastic record.
You can even say Bowyers demise began even a few days before the Swindon game when he blamed the 2000 fans at the MK match for not being more vocal when the game was shit and we had nothing to shout about. Since the new year its just been a desperate situation where its obvious the players dont want to play for him, so his constantly make 5 changes a game, desperate subs and blaming anyone and everyone publicly but himself to save face. Bloke needs to go before he does anymore damage to the club.
I have to say that if I had learnt something like this from a player I would not be putting it out there.
Ironic that Bowyer is being accused of bullying, and is now being bullied.
It doesn't matter if he he cried, told him to fuck off or chinned him, even all 3.
It shouldn't have been delt like that, the players shouldn't have reacted like that.
Two wrongs are exactly that. Two wrongs. No one is right.
The fact a player cried is the least relevant bit in all of this. Assuming any of it is true.
What it is important to say is that sometimes people snap and it isn't their intention to feed information.
I think J Block and myself have not given the detail of what we know (from different players and different sources) or which player is responsible. But obviously, if you know something you believe is wrong it is hard to support the people/person you think are in the wrong. Especially when it isn't a massive leap to predict and then see the damage it is doing.
Alternatively, Bowyer could have verbally anihilated the guy and he burst into tears.
Either way if players are going to burst into tears after a bollocking I would expect it to happen at nearly every game.
Agreed.
A generational clash and different expectations of what is acceptable.
He's from the John Sitton era.
Bring ya faakin dinner.
And he probably thinks players of Bowyer's generation are all cry baby pussies.
You can't treat every player the same if you want to get the best out of them. Ferguson was the master of it. Ince and another player were walking off the pitch at Selhurst after the Cantona "incident" and laughing how Fergie was going to rip in to him. Once in the dressing room he launched into Ince and another player for some minor mistakes for about 10 minutes, then, calmly turned to Eric and said "you can't do that son".
Even the greats get it wrong, not even Clough could get it right every time.
If you want to try the amateur psychology you either have to get it right 99% of the time or be prepared for it to blow up on your face.