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Has Bowyer lost it?
Comments
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Pressure from whom? Didn't we start that winning run pretty much as soon as Sandgaard came in and we made signings? Interesting if Sandgaard came in, told the media we had a great manager then told that manager that he had to start getting results or lose his job straight away.Swisdom said:I was told Bowyer was under a fair bit of pressure before we went on that winning run - he was under no illusion that results had to improve. We did and it was all good. Since then we have fallen off a cliff in terms of performances and results so I dare say he is feeling the pressure once more. This could explain why he is a bit salty in the post match interviews and also why he sometimes seems to say things without thinking.
For what it's worth he still has credit in the bank in my opinion but the performances still need to go up a notch or two. Play-offs is realistic but largely because this is a poor division this season and everyone keep dropping points. One good run will see a team win this division and I can't see it coming from us with the current team.
Regardless of if we reach the payoffs we need to rebuild in the summer once again
If we go up then that's wonderful - if not we rebuild PROPERLY this time starting early and knowing who we want rather than being embargoed and getting rejects.
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I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
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Cant keep up this poor form, we've got 23 league games left, plenty of football to be won in a shit league, needs to start with a win against Swindon0
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Ah, yes ..... my pet hate of Americanisms in British English hahaEastTerrace said:Bowyer isn’t loosing it, but he may be losing it.
I think he is trying not to loose it but sometimes he still does lose it.
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I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers1 -
The worst time for a manager to do an interview is post match after losing.mendonca said:He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
Emotions still running high, tension, frustration and accute disappointment ..... and all he wants to do is go home and kick the cat.
And then people wonder why he seems depressed or whatever?
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I think he has saved us a few points. But I suppose your point is, we could get somebody in as good or similar that would cost less. I don't think this is always the best approach. Bring a better keeper in by all means but not almost as good. I am a great believer in getting the spine right.0
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Amos has earned us a lot of points this season, but he is paid to make saves and that’s what he has been doing. Another keeper on less money may have done as well, we will never know. I get your point though, Amos is a player we can move on in the summer and get similar results with a cheaper alternative.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers0 -
I thought Bowyer's VP interview was too long last night, as Bowyer was largely repeating himself and coming over as even more miserable!1
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What most managers do is take it out on the ref, find a reason outside of their own individual players or give a collective blame. But most footballers don't get arrested or pick a fight with a team mate. It could be argued that Bowyer is demonstrating behaviours that were evident years ago and certainly not the norm.Oggy Red said:
The worst time for a manager to do an interview is post match after losing.mendonca said:He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
Emotions still running high, tension, frustration and accute disappointment ..... and all he wants to do is go home and kick the cat.
And then people wonder why he seems depressed or whatever?0 - Sponsored links:
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Think that's way off personally. Amos played a massive part in our run, let's not forget he won League 1 player of the month. He has single handedly won us points this season for sure. I don't think any of us know how AMB would have done, looks promising but vastly inexperienced.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Regarding Amos being "too much money to keep him around". At the moment that's wrong, because he only counts for the divisional average. That could change next season depending on his wage demands.5 -
Blimey, are you lot still going round and around the same bloody thing?
Nearly a 1000 posts, mostly by the same people saying the same thing again and again.
COVID has a lot to answer for.
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I’m not missing your point, I just couldn’t agree less with it.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers0 -
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?Redrobo said:Blimey, are you lot still going round and around the same bloody thing?
Nearly a 1000 posts, mostly by the same people saying the same thing again and again.
COVID has a lot to answer for.5 -
Maybe. Maybe not, I dunno.MuttleyCAFC said:
What most managers do is take it out on the ref, find a reason outside of their own individual players or give a collective blame. But most footballers don't get arrested or pick a fight with a team mate. It could be argued that Bowyer is demonstrating behaviours that were evident years ago and certainly not the norm.Oggy Red said:
The worst time for a manager to do an interview is post match after losing.mendonca said:He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
Emotions still running high, tension, frustration and accute disappointment ..... and all he wants to do is go home and kick the cat.
And then people wonder why he seems depressed or whatever?
But most managers are pretty wound up 5 minutes after losing a match. It's the very worst time for a common sense interview.
They invariably say the wrong thing the wrong way - and then all the muppets vomit all over social media, trying to make stuff fit their own agenda.
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It's true they do. But they rarely, if ever, make it personal, not with their own players, supporters or backroom staff that is. And when you see other managers do this will often think that the writing is on the wall for them. I don't get why Bowyer gets a free pass to do it.0
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Personally not backing Bowyer out of blind loyalty, but recognising that he's proven he's got the minerals to work under pressure, and hoping this was a bit of a wobble that he'll overcome. That said, still puzzled as to the change in some fans opinion in such a short period of time5
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Are you not saying the same bloody thing?MuttleyCAFC said:
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?Redrobo said:Blimey, are you lot still going round and around the same bloody thing?
Nearly a 1000 posts, mostly by the same people saying the same thing again and again.
COVID has a lot to answer for.1 -
Having read the match and post match threads (word for word) all the way back to Gillingham, I am disappointed that last night's PMT, following the unfortunate result at Peterborough, seems to be easing up on the level of criticism directed at Bower.
THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED CONTINUE!!!
Therefore may I suggest a new thread is started where Lifers can hold Bows to be wholly responsible for the triple whammy of Bexit, Covid AND Global Warming.
In my opinion he is as guilty as hell on all three counts, m'lud.3 -
Ok, that's nice.se9addick said:
I’m not missing your point, I just couldn’t agree less with it.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Can you show me all the points he he saved us? Or is that just guess work? League 1 player of the month, what about every other month? That's not how Bowyer gets judged.cafcfan1990 said:
Think that's way off personally. Amos played a massive part in our run, let's not forget he won League 1 player of the month. He has single handedly won us points this season for sure. I don't think any of us know how AMB would have done, looks promising but vastly inexperienced.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Regarding Amos being "too much money to keep him around". At the moment that's wrong, because he only counts for the divisional average. That could change next season depending on his wage demands.
Every goalie is inexperienced till they get the chance, we aren't great anyway, I don't see Amos being our answer. Which is why I'm saying assuming the wage cap is the same next season and we are here, we should loan a prem sides prospect or use our own.
Don't want to post about it anymore anyway now as it's off topic and it comes across like I'm digging out Amos now when I'm not trying to, just pointing out you can have success loaning in a keeper as it's the easiest position on the pitch to bed someone in the team and we would save some money for more important areas0 - Sponsored links:
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Very well put Muttley, I got slaughtered the other night for saying I am a Charlton fan, which doesn’t mean I have to have the massive love in with LB, that some fans are engaged in. Your comments on his loyalty are a reflection of my own, he is likely the highest paid manager in this league by some margin. I don’t want him to leave, I want him to do the job he is highly paid to do. Which is send out a team that can win football games. If he can’t do that then, hand over to some one who can. I think it was a massive mistake not to get a Centre Back in at the first opportunity in the window. That was 4 games ago, and we have 4 points from 12. So it will all be ok when Inniss and Famewo are back, can we be sure that’s a definite. Now after the Peterborough defeat there is the hint from him that we need a Centre Back. If we had one four games ago, who knows how many of those 12 points we could have got.MuttleyCAFC said:I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.So come on Lee, sort this mess out, this is not a blip, it’s a full blown crisis. We need to go on a winning run, the likes of which we haven’t seen in years.3 -
Are you........ForeverAddickted said:
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?MuttleyCAFC said:
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?Redrobo said:Blimey, are you lot still going round and around the same bloody thing?
Nearly a 1000 posts, mostly by the same people saying the same thing again and again.
COVID has a lot to answer for.
Ok, we are all saying the same bloody thing because it is the subject of the thread. Most of us are not moaning about it.2 -
It's not guess work, it's based on performances and particularly saves he has made this season. When he had a settled CB partnership in front of him he was playing brilliantly, culminating in his player of the month award.Braziliance said:
Ok, that's nice.se9addick said:
I’m not missing your point, I just couldn’t agree less with it.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Can you show me all the points he he saved us? Or is that just guess work? League 1 player of the month, what about every other month? That's not how Bowyer gets judged.cafcfan1990 said:
Think that's way off personally. Amos played a massive part in our run, let's not forget he won League 1 player of the month. He has single handedly won us points this season for sure. I don't think any of us know how AMB would have done, looks promising but vastly inexperienced.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Regarding Amos being "too much money to keep him around". At the moment that's wrong, because he only counts for the divisional average. That could change next season depending on his wage demands.
Every goalie is inexperienced till they get the chance, we aren't great anyway, I don't see Amos being our answer. Which is why I'm saying assuming the wage cap is the same next season and we are here, we should loan a prem sides prospect or use our own.
Don't want to post about it anymore anyway now as it's off topic and it comes across like I'm digging out Amos now when I'm not trying to, just pointing out you can have success loaning in a keeper as it's the easiest position on the pitch to bed someone in the team and we would save some money for more important areas
You say you're not digging out Amos but say he's not the answer, what points has he saved us and also "what about every month". So I think it's quite clear you are saying he's not good enough.
I have nothing against signing a keeper on loan, it's been successful for us over the last few years. But let's say we need 10 signings next season and 5 of them are going to be on loan, I don't see any benefit in saying the keeper has to be loan. It makes no difference whatsoever to the wage cap because you're going to need 5 permanents either way. Might be the easiest position to bed someone, but I don't agree in saving money for more important areas. The keeper is the one likely to have the most appearances and I feel it's one of the most important positions on the pitch.0 -
Sorry Mutts... Very poor jokeMuttleyCAFC said:
Are you........ForeverAddickted said:
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?MuttleyCAFC said:
Are you not saying the same bloody thing?Redrobo said:Blimey, are you lot still going round and around the same bloody thing?
Nearly a 1000 posts, mostly by the same people saying the same thing again and again.
COVID has a lot to answer for.
Ok, we are all saying the same bloody thing because it is the subject of the thread. Most of us are not moaning about it.0 -
It is amazing how much better a keeper looks when his defenders are better.2
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On a slightly more serious note...
My perception of Bows is that his management style is slightly insular.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that he only trusts and respects players like himself, who have his ability and can do what he did in his days as a player. Any player with a different set of attributes is not trusted and whatever they may be able to contribute to the party is not appreciated or wanted. Others have alluded to this in recent post match threads and some of his team selections seem to bear this out.
Does he discuss and openly seek advice from his coaching staff? My money would say no...
If Bows is going to ride out the current slump and take us forward, which I hope he will, he needs to use all the skills and resources available around him and seek advice whenever it is necessary.
The 'team' effort required is not limited to the eleven on the park. It needs to be applied throughout the playing and coaching side of the club.
Results in elite sport are ground out by maximising the benefits of small margins. Which means using ALL the resources that are available to him.
If Bows cannot grasp this, his future as a footy manager will not continue much further with us, or any other club.
Which, in my opinion, would be a huge waste of his talent.0 -
And if he doesn't, when does the club act? When it is too late to achieve anything this season?0
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Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? ThanksMuttleyCAFC said:I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.0 -
Sadly it’s too late now. Too many clubs have played less than us and that’s before taking into account our very indifferent form. Playoffs now would be a real achievement.MuttleyCAFC said:And if he doesn't, when does the club act? When it is too late to achieve anything this season?0 -
In regards to your second paragraph it's relative to the thread, if Bowyers achievements aren't remembered when he is out of form then why are Amos performances referred to in this instance?cafcfan1990 said:
It's not guess work, it's based on performances and particularly saves he has made this season. When he had a settled CB partnership in front of him he was playing brilliantly, culminating in his player of the month award.Braziliance said:
Ok, that's nice.se9addick said:
I’m not missing your point, I just couldn’t agree less with it.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Can you show me all the points he he saved us? Or is that just guess work? League 1 player of the month, what about every other month? That's not how Bowyer gets judged.cafcfan1990 said:
Think that's way off personally. Amos played a massive part in our run, let's not forget he won League 1 player of the month. He has single handedly won us points this season for sure. I don't think any of us know how AMB would have done, looks promising but vastly inexperienced.Braziliance said:
I think you're missing my point.se9addick said:
Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area).Braziliance said:
I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.cafcfan1990 said:
Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan.Braziliance said:
I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill.Callumcafc said:
It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all? Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place.Callumcafc said:
Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.SELR_addicks said:Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it.
You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas? Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.
What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?
He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids.
I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie
I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
Despite him being a decent goalie at this level he isn't exactly going to decide how many points we get, I don't see him as 'will earn you an extra 10 points a season goalie'. Next season, if we are in this league it would be wise not to invest in a goalie when there are so many talented ones we could loan and not have to pay for, that's my point.
We could have played AMB and would be in the same position as we are now I would say.
Just to be clear I am not scapegoating Amos as I like him, I just think it's too much money to keep him around for what he offers
Regarding Amos being "too much money to keep him around". At the moment that's wrong, because he only counts for the divisional average. That could change next season depending on his wage demands.
Every goalie is inexperienced till they get the chance, we aren't great anyway, I don't see Amos being our answer. Which is why I'm saying assuming the wage cap is the same next season and we are here, we should loan a prem sides prospect or use our own.
Don't want to post about it anymore anyway now as it's off topic and it comes across like I'm digging out Amos now when I'm not trying to, just pointing out you can have success loaning in a keeper as it's the easiest position on the pitch to bed someone in the team and we would save some money for more important areas
You say you're not digging out Amos but say he's not the answer, what points has he saved us and also "what about every month". So I think it's quite clear you are saying he's not good enough.
I have nothing against signing a keeper on loan, it's been successful for us over the last few years. But let's say we need 10 signings next season and 5 of them are going to be on loan, I don't see any benefit in saying the keeper has to be loan. It makes no difference whatsoever to the wage cap because you're going to need 5 permanents either way. Might be the easiest position to bed someone, but I don't agree in saving money for more important areas. The keeper is the one likely to have the most appearances and I feel it's one of the most important positions on the pitch.
Like I said pointless discussion anyway, I believe having a goalie on a high wage for a club in our circumstance isn't important based on a wage cap for next season, you and others would prefer him, that's it.
Not that it was ever about Amos, more so the goalie position itself and how we could get around a tight wage structure0
This discussion has been closed.
