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Has Bowyer lost it?

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  • Chunes said:
    I think we have forgotten what a 'lost dressing room' team looks like. Think back to the body language and effort of the team under Les Reed in the Carling Cup against Wycombe Wanderers.

    I was thinking during the game yesterday, "This is a proper Charlton performance." Every player was putting in a shift, tackling hard, fighting for the second balls. You can tell this team are backing the manager, but we are just being let down by one or two players who are in an awful run of form. 

    I give full credit to LB for what he is getting out of them at the moment. He's the manager for the future, with a team of young, fit players signed for the future and not our crocked selection of rushed signings and relics of a bygone, failed era. 
    Guy Luzon at home to Preston , I think .  Nobody tried.  Could have been Brentford 
  • mascot88 said:
    With the salary cap I think we are down here for a few years .... 
    Each year it will get tougher as another three teams from the Championship come down with decent players in their squad who only count as the league average salary against the cap. It really is imperative that we do everything possible within our control to get up this year.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill. 

    I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie 
    Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan. 
    I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.

    I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
    Can’t agree with that, over the course of the season so far Amos has probably been our best player and I doubt we’ll be signing a better keeper (which is a rather important area). 
  • Redrobo said:
    Love Bowyer, Love his honesty.
    Seems to see what I see. Seems to react to what I see.
    Maybe some never played in a team that wanted to win.
    Maybe never been in a situation when that mattered.
    Maybe some do not understand what that means.
    To be in a team. To be against it.
    I hate quitters.
    I hate negativity.
    It is never over until it is.
    Fit in or fuck off.
    Stay together and fight.
    Never surrender.
    Win or lose, we do it together.
    Is that a Stuart Pearce quote (left back btw)
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill. 

    I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie 
    Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan. 
    I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.

    I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo
    Agree on the wage. I obviously wouldn’t want to be paying Amos 4-5k with a salary cap. 

  • Dazzler21 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

    Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 
    Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.
    I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

  • Wouldn't be surprised if players like Amos do what Matthews did this season. Their agent would tell them that it's not worth staying under the cap and so look elsewhere. They could come back later if there's no interest but that's a dangerous game obviously. I think JFC could stay as I doubt he's on big bucks. Fully expect Williams to go whatever division we are in. 

  • Dazzler21 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

    Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 
    Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.
    I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

    Wasn’t there a cut off date in August for contract renewals up to which point the league average counted for those salaries but after which the full whack would apply? Will there not be a similar situation up to August 2021 for the 2021/22 season or was that a one time thing? If it was a one time thing then this summer is going to be a bloodbath for players over the age of 21. 
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  • se9addick said:

    Dazzler21 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

    Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 
    Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.
    I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

    Wasn’t there a cut off date in August for contract renewals up to which point the league average counted for those salaries but after which the full whack would apply? Will there not be a similar situation up to August 2021 for the 2021/22 season or was that a one time thing? If it was a one time thing then this summer is going to be a bloodbath for players over the age of 21. 
    One time because of the cap being introduced. All renewing of contracts and new signings will now count (21+ obviously). To go up I think you need to have a core of around 14 players ages 21+, 5 loans of which a couple are 21+ on cheap wages for us and then at least 2/3 quality players under 21. 
  • I think it's clear someone has had a word in his ear. Much calmer and more supportive of players in recent interviews.

    Good to see 
    It was "clear that he lost the dressing room" the other day, according to you, but now the results have gone the other, it's "clear that someone’s had a word in his ear”.

    What is "clear" to me is that Bowyer’s position has swung from a no-lose situation (While the panto was in town) to a no-win situation, overnight literally. And there were far too many people jumping the gun, calling for him to be sacked far too prematurely the other day. That's referencing purely the people who were calling for hm to go, and not those who were merely questioning his tactics.
    Yes.   I believe, in my opinion, that he has lost the dressing room, but I also believe that someone has had a word in his ear about toning down the level of public criticism towards the players as i've seen an improvement in that regard in recent interviews.

    I don't see why both my observations can't be true & I stand by both statements
    It's not what you're saying so much, more how you say it. Personally cant see how any of it is "clear" 
  • .....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.


  • .....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.


    Ok fair enough  Maybe 'clear' was the wrong choice of words, but it is my opinion that the players are not playing for Bowyer & when that happens, it's very hard to come back from. 

    To be clear, I love Bowyer & really want it to work out for him here, but as I've also stated previously, I think the job is affecting his mental state & I think he needs a break.  He looks so despondent after every game.
  • .....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.


    Ok fair enough  Maybe 'clear' was the wrong choice of words, but it is my opinion that the players are not playing for Bowyer & when that happens, it's very hard to come back from. 

    To be clear, I love Bowyer & really want it to work out for him here, but as I've also stated previously, I think the job is affecting his mental state & I think he needs a break.  He looks so despondent after every game.
    But we are on a pretty terrible run, that's surely to be expected? I'd be more concerned if he was ecstatic after we lose. 
  • He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
  • se9addick said:

    Dazzler21 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 
    Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

    You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.
    So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

    What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

    What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

    He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 
    It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.
    I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

    Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 
    Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.
    I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

    Wasn’t there a cut off date in August for contract renewals up to which point the league average counted for those salaries but after which the full whack would apply? Will there not be a similar situation up to August 2021 for the 2021/22 season or was that a one time thing? If it was a one time thing then this summer is going to be a bloodbath for players over the age of 21. 
    One time because of the cap being introduced. All renewing of contracts and new signings will now count (21+ obviously). To go up I think you need to have a core of around 14 players ages 21+, 5 loans of which a couple are 21+ on cheap wages for us and then at least 2/3 quality players under 21. 
    Brutal - experienced players who are out of contract this year are looking at big wage cuts in the summer. 
  • .....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.


    Ok fair enough  Maybe 'clear' was the wrong choice of words, but it is my opinion that the players are not playing for Bowyer & when that happens, it's very hard to come back from. 

    To be clear, I love Bowyer & really want it to work out for him here, but as I've also stated previously, I think the job is affecting his mental state & I think he needs a break.  He looks so despondent after every game.
    Did you watch the match last night? 1st half especially was a completely commited performance in a work rate sense. I'd say both players and management are in this together. Their heads are down at the moment that's all
  • mendonca said:
    He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
    Stressed most definitely, as 99% of managers are, some high profile cases of Premier League managers getting ill over the stress. I think depressed is an exaggeration. 
  • mendonca said:
    He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
    That's what I meant, but you've put it better than I did 👍
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  • mendonca said:
    He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
    Stressed most definitely, as 99% of managers are, some high profile cases of Premier League managers getting ill over the stress. I think depressed is an exaggeration. 
    Of course, it is just a personal guess. Like assuming that 99% of managers are stressed ;-)
  • edited January 2021
    mendonca said:
    mendonca said:
    He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.
    Stressed most definitely, as 99% of managers are, some high profile cases of Premier League managers getting ill over the stress. I think depressed is an exaggeration. 
    Of course, it is just a personal guess. Like assuming that 99% of managers are stressed ;-)
    I don't really think it is a guess/assumption. Football is a results business and you come under pressure whenever you go on a bad run, as we've seen with Bowyer. Solskjaer was under pressure shortly before his team were top of the league, we've seen a different Klopp this season, Watford sack their manager every few weeks. Time/loyalty for managers is reducing all the time. Just think depression is a mental illness, Bowyer doesn't look depressed to me. Just think his job has continually changed, so many off the pitch issues and now different circumstances. The injuries have continued and I think he's in a rut. I think he's really struggled this season to get a reaction from his players, hence the public critcism, continually changing the team etc. Either way, if it continues for much longer I do think he'll walk. 
  • Last night would be especially upsetting as a manager given that he came with a plan that really did make sense given the circumstances and was working well... But ruined by a couple of individual mistakes that he really couldn't have accounted for.
    (And not just the defensive balls up, but Aneke's failure to play in Schwartz for example.)

    I've been on both sides of the Great Bowyer Debate, currently I'm seeing some signs of improvement but with lots of further steps needed. Certainly now he's talking about a player he was hoping to have already signed makes me think he's confident in his job security, and TS seems the type to give Bowyer at least this season and probably a fair crack at the next given the previous situation.
  • I was told Bowyer was under a fair bit of pressure before we went on that winning run - he was under no illusion that results had to improve.  We did and it was all good.  Since then we have fallen off a cliff in terms of performances and results so I dare say he is feeling the pressure once more.  This could explain why he is a bit salty in the post match interviews and also why he sometimes seems to say things without thinking.

    For what it's worth he still has credit in the bank in my opinion but the performances still need to go up a notch or two.  Play-offs is realistic but largely because this is a poor division this season and everyone keep dropping points.  One good run will see a team win this division and I can't see it coming from us with the current team.

    Regardless of if we reach the payoffs we need to rebuild in the summer once again

    If we go up then that's wonderful - if not we rebuild PROPERLY this time starting early and knowing who we want rather than being embargoed and getting rejects.
  • It's clear Bowyer has to blame someone every time we lose. Last night it was Pearce, Oshilaja & someone else who didn't sign a player in time. It wasn't, and never is, his fault.

    Last night we let in a couple of sloppy goals but our squad is extremely competitive in this poor league so there's no way we should be talking about losing. We should be winning most games.

    The mask slips in his interviews. Last night it was patronising the players by saying they gave everything but yet they're not good enough. I think they are good enough but for some reason they're not playing to their ability.

    He blamed that fact that no one took control for the first goal when actually when you look back at it both defenders took control and because of that the ball fell to an unmarked player.

    It's getting really frustrating.
  • @Dave Rudd the key part for me is as you say are we going to go from game to game? and react depending on the viewpoint to each match? 
    We are playing twice a week so that’s a roller coaster that we should probably avoid. There has to be I guess an expectation maybe over the next 10 games of where we want to be in the table / rough estimates of points to be gained. 
    I’d hope that’s an approach internally to be taken. Only if it’s calamitous would be my own personal viewpoint that we need to look again. I’ve been in the Bowyer in camp the whole way along but I also don’t want to be dogmatic about it.
  • " when actually when you look back at it both defenders took control and because of that the ball fell to an unmarked player." .....the point was in reference to taking control of the ball before it bounced and presented an opportunity to the forwards to flick on. 
  • Looking at the table and the teams around us, I can't see us finishing any higher than 6th as we've played more games than the teams above us, and they look more settled, and even 6th will be a challenge when you look at the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland who would be above us on ppg

    We now HAVE to win the next 2 games (Swindon and MKD) and hope that the confidence boost and return of Famewo lifts us for the Pompey game.
  • We have an average bunch of players who are mainly suited to L1 and an average manager who is fond of tinkering with team selection. We are probably around the position I'd expect us to be and I can't see a lot changing if our squad can't cope with two injured CBs.

    Everything is bang average based on our return of three wins in the last 13 games and 14 points. 

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Roland Out Forever!