I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? Thanks
I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? Thanks
there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see.
Is that not a bit insulting to anyone who doesn't agree with you? I very much suspect that this isn't a binary issue, and maybe it's worth listening to other people, rather than writing them off.
I apologise if it is but I think it is one of those things. Insults are thrown the other way. I think the evidence is there as clear as day. If you want me to do a list I will but it has all been said and discussed countless times. I can't understand why this evidence is ignored?
If it is accepted and the position is that we owe Bowyer, that is an incredible position, effectively elevating Bowyer above the club.
I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? Thanks
So it can only really be Gallen or ultimately TS that he's having a bit of a pop at. And I don't think it's Gallen. The conspiracy theorist might suspect Tommy's holding back the purse strings a bit because he's not 100% on Bowyer?
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? Thanks
So it can only really be Gallen or ultimately TS that he's having a bit of a pop at. And I don't think it's Gallen. The conspiracy theorist might suspect Tommy's holding back the purse strings a bit because he's not 100% on Bowyer?
We don't know any of the background circumstances of this missed or delayed signing.
It might just be the other club weren't happy with a detail; and while waiting for a solution decided in the meantime to keep him available for their own match day squad this week. Or any reason really.
Bowyer may have thought it was a straightforward signing and simply alluding that we didn't allow enough time for contingencies that subsequently developed. He's just frustrated he didn't have an extra player in the squad, not that's he's blaming anyone in particular or that Thomas won't support him.
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Agreed, he wouldn't have brought in Schwartz just for us to go through the motions and finish mid table
I don't love Bowyer, I love Charlton, but I have very much liked him as a manager. There are historical posts on here that will prove that. Where people see loyalty, I see a 400k a year contract (that he played hardball to get) with use of a 90k car and expenses. I see the fact that he turned down a better paid job in Birmingham because he and his family are settled in Sevenoaks. I don't think there is anything wrong with that by the way, it just isn't what I personally call loyalty.
I praised Bowyer when it was obvious morale and the dressing room was great and everything was front foot about us on and off the pitch and I have criticised him when I have seen the opposite behaviours. I could show easily that tactics have become more negative (whether right or wrong), utterances from Bowyer have become markedly more negative and his behaviours have become strange and defensive. We have seen the singling out of fans, players and was it the owner or Chris Parkes yesterday? These things are there for all to see when they were not previously.
I believe Bowyer has lost his way, much in the same way a lot of managers lose their way. It is sad to see and disappointing when you put your hopes in a person but there are those that see it and call it and there are those that choose to make excuses and close their eyes to what they see. I would ask them to provide an example of another current manager in all four divisions behaving like Bowyer is now.
We had gone a couple of games without him digging somebody out. I reacted after yesterday reasonably positively as it seemed his criticisms were more general which is fine, then I see the blame game about not getting the player in! Results like yesterday happen, and there were no clear errors on how we set up and even for the most part how we played. Had we taken an easy chance, we would have been 2 nil up! But there is a fragility in the side and it is the same fragility we saw against Accrington and in the first half v Rochdale. I believe Bowyer has contributed to that fragility.
The solution has to be to accept that Bowyer is unlikely to save our season in much the same way Robinson wasn't and make a similar change. Freshen things up and change mindsets. Take time to look for a suitable replacement, but in the meantime, Sandgaard should ask JJ what he would do differently and how he would approach the second half of the season. If he is not happy with the answer, he should ask Euell the same question. Then if they do what Bowyer did when he took over he doesn't need to bring a manager in.
I will never apologise for putting Charlton above Bowyer.
Really ? What's that all about then ? I've not had time to read the post match thread yet, is there something on there ? Thanks
Whilst Bowyer probably shouldn't be saying that sort of thing to the media, he does echo the thoughts a lot of people have probably had who wonder why at Charlton do our transfers always have to be a long drawn out process which seems to take weeks to go through
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Agreed, he wouldn't have brought in Schwartz just for us to go through the motions and finish mid table
Indeed. The ambition is still there to have a go of at least reaching the playoffs. There's obviously going to be a couple more comings and goings this transfer window.
People seem to be anxious that because we're not top of the League right now, that means we have no chance at all of promotion this season.
Some are forgetting that in our promotion year 2 seasons ago, we weren't exactly in a rich vein of form and certainly very inconsistent, roughly in the table where we are now. It was only during the last dozen games that we properly got our act together and went on a terrific run.
As Curbs keeps saying, "if you're going to have a blip, have it now. But make sure you get it together for the final 10 game run in".
Can I just point out when I started this thread it was straight after a loss so was feeling very agitated then. So what I’m about to say will contradict this.
In a position we’re in given the circumstances from start of the season and before I think we’re doing ok. Not brilliant but ok.
Lee’s had to put up with lots of shit during his time as a manager.
Some people talk about his first season and how it’s been easy for him but you got to remember we had a lower budget than the likes of Sunderland and Portsmouth. The likes of Bielik wasn’t a obvious player to have, he played a few games with Walsall before! Roland wasn’t investing heavily in the squad, our recent signing Ronnie was our most expensive signing under Lee. Sunderland paid £3M for Will Griggs and he hasn’t set a light. That should tell you a lot!
Last season we let Bauer and Aribo go because Roland wouldn’t give them the wage they deserved and Roland wouldn’t invest in Bielik. We had the lowest budget in the Championship. If it wasn’t the sheer amount of injuries, ESI and prats like Taylor we would’ve stayed up.
This season, our biggest problem was the ownership circus and the wage cap. While we were in an embargo other teams were investing when we couldn’t and the wage cap didn’t come in until our ownership issue was sorted so we couldn’t invest like other teams around us did. Peterborough last night had JCH and he would’ve resolved our strike force issue.
I think some of you need to look at the bigger picture. Bowyer isn’t perfect and I had my share of criticisms over some of his decisions but ffs he would’ve been a Premier League manager if he didn’t make those mistakes. Who’s going to come in to make us better?
I feel we need to see what this January window bring’s, where we finish this season and potentially the start of next season where we stand with Bowyer. Replacing him now with someone else isn’t the right decision IMO.
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Agreed, he wouldn't have brought in Schwartz just for us to go through the motions and finish mid table
Indeed. The ambition is still there to have a go of at least reaching the playoffs. There's obviously going to be a couple more comings and goings this transfer window.
People seem to be anxious that because we're not top of the League right now, that means we have no chance at all of promotion this season.
Some are forgetting that in our promotion year 2 seasons ago, we weren't exactly in a rich vein of form and certainly very inconsistent, roughly in the table where we are now. It was only during the last dozen games that we properly got our act together and went on a terrific run.
As Curbs keeps saying, "if you're going to have a blip, have it now. But make sure you get it together for the final 10 game run in".
I thought I had exposed this piece of nonsense on another thread.
First, don't have the blip. And, second, get the points in now. You don't have to wait until the final ten games. The points will be worth the same.
Thing is, without more additions to the squad, we don't look like going on the required run either now or later in the season.
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Agreed, he wouldn't have brought in Schwartz just for us to go through the motions and finish mid table
Indeed. The ambition is still there to have a go of at least reaching the playoffs. There's obviously going to be a couple more comings and goings this transfer window.
People seem to be anxious that because we're not top of the League right now, that means we have no chance at all of promotion this season.
Some are forgetting that in our promotion year 2 seasons ago, we weren't exactly in a rich vein of form and certainly very inconsistent, roughly in the table where we are now. It was only during the last dozen games that we properly got our act together and went on a terrific run.
As Curbs keeps saying, "if you're going to have a blip, have it now. But make sure you get it together for the final 10 game run in".
I thought I had exposed this piece of nonsense on another thread.
First, don't have the blip. And, second, get the points in now. You don't have to wait until the final ten games. The points will be worth the same.
Thing is, without more additions to the squad, we don't look like going on the required run either now or later in the season.
That was very good of you to "expose this piece of nonsense on another thread", Dave. I still haven't seen it amongst the avalanche of posts on 20 different threads today.
Yeah, you're not wrong. But that doesn't make you right either. If you were, the best team in the division would be champions by Christmas.
Old adage time: "the season is a marathon not a sprint".
Of course, every manager and fan wants to get the points in the bag as soon as possible. But football's not like that: injuries, suspensions, plain old loss of form, etc., takes a toll ....... every team goes through various dips of form throughout the season - and we're certainly going through ours right now. But Hull, Peterborough, even League leaders Lincoln have also had rough patches with no doubt another to come. Accrington, for all their good form, have just lost 3 games in a row. It happens.
Winning runs too. We had one that propelled us from 19th to 3rd. Is it impossible to have another this season?
And as for Curbs' "piece of old nonsense". Well, he's been there and done it, hands on. He reckons better to finish strongly, than run out of steam in the last few games.
Remember nailed on automatic promotion favourites Sunderland and Portsmouth in our recent promotion season? Almost home and dry, weren't they? Games in hand too.
But we ended the season on a strong run and finished above them.
Can I just point out when I started this thread it was straight after a loss so was feeling very agitated then. So what I’m about to say will contradict this.
In a position we’re in given the circumstances from start of the season and before I think we’re doing ok. Not brilliant but ok.
Lee’s had to put up with lots of shit during his time as a manager.
Some people talk about his first season and how it’s been easy for him but you got to remember we had a lower budget than the likes of Sunderland and Portsmouth. The likes of Bielik wasn’t a obvious player to have, he played a few games with Walsall before! Roland wasn’t investing heavily in the squad, our recent signing Ronnie was our most expensive signing under Lee. Sunderland paid £3M for Will Griggs and he hasn’t set a light. That should tell you a lot!
Last season we let Bauer and Aribo go because Roland wouldn’t give them the wage they deserved and Roland wouldn’t invest in Bielik. We had the lowest budget in the Championship. If it wasn’t the sheer amount of injuries, ESI and prats like Taylor we would’ve stayed up.
This season, our biggest problem was the ownership circus and the wage cap. While we were in an embargo other teams were investing when we couldn’t and the wage cap didn’t come in until our ownership issue was sorted so we couldn’t invest like other teams around us did. Peterborough last night had JCH and he would’ve resolved our strike force issue.
I think some of you need to look at the bigger picture. Bowyer isn’t perfect and I had my share of criticisms over some of his decisions but ffs he would’ve been a Premier League manager if he didn’t make those mistakes. Who’s going to come in to make us better?
I feel we need to see what this January window bring’s, where we finish this season and potentially the start of next season where we stand with Bowyer. Replacing him now with someone else isn’t the right decision IMO.
This might get the main attacker(s) to calm down, but I doubt it, because they may have lost it as well.
Tables don't change that much though. 2 seasons ago this was the top 7 when we had played 23 games, and then the final league table. The same teams feature, with really the only significant difference being that Pompey and Sunderland slipped a bit while Barnsley improved. We were 7 points better off than we are now incidentally.
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Agreed, he wouldn't have brought in Schwartz just for us to go through the motions and finish mid table
Indeed. The ambition is still there to have a go of at least reaching the playoffs. There's obviously going to be a couple more comings and goings this transfer window.
People seem to be anxious that because we're not top of the League right now, that means we have no chance at all of promotion this season.
Some are forgetting that in our promotion year 2 seasons ago, we weren't exactly in a rich vein of form and certainly very inconsistent, roughly in the table where we are now. It was only during the last dozen games that we properly got our act together and went on a terrific run.
As Curbs keeps saying, "if you're going to have a blip, have it now. But make sure you get it together for the final 10 game run in".
I thought I had exposed this piece of nonsense on another thread.
First, don't have the blip. And, second, get the points in now. You don't have to wait until the final ten games. The points will be worth the same.
Thing is, without more additions to the squad, we don't look like going on the required run either now or later in the season.
Better decision making would help maximise points earned with the squad we have. And avoid waiting for a mirage of future possibilities to come good. Effective management for any task requires the best use of the available resources and Bows has been failing on this account with examples plastered over this site. Can't believe practical advice from others would not be available within the club's framework. Otherwise CharltonLife should set up a consultancy arm! Advice is just that. Advice promotes discussion and potential outcomes can then be accepted or rejected on their merits before any harm is done. This would open up potential options and leave some sort of decision structure that could be reviewed and developed with time. And maybe enable collective decision making, relieving some of the pressure off Lee. Footy is after all a team game... And we are all in this together.
Tables don't change that much though. 2 seasons ago this was the top 7 when we had played 23 games, and then the final league table. The same teams feature, with really the only significant difference being that Pompey and Sunderland slipped a bit while Barnsley improved. We were 7 points better off than we are now incidentally.
The same teams involved, but plenty of change within the final positions. Doncaster finished 15 points behind Charlton and Posh missed out on the playoffs altogether.
I mean after 23 games, runaway leaders Portsmouth were 8 points clear of 3rd, but eventually missed out on the autos. After Christmas, Luton were on an incredible unbeaten run until losing at The Valley late in the season. Barnsley also put a very good run together in the 2nd half of the season. While Sunderland had loads of games in hand yet couldn't buy a win, when poised to finished 2nd.
I believe our game 23 was a home win against Gillingham following our defeat at Blackpool .... but then, the next 2 games over Christmas were both lost (3 defeats in 4 games) before a New Years Day win over Walsall and a draw at home to Sunderland; wins against Shrewsbury and Accrington. I remember we slumped in February with Taylor suspended and Grant sold, dropping plenty of points.
My point is that we were very inconsistant for about 10 or 12 weeks, winning only 4 games in that period, and even dropped out of the play off positions until we got our run going early in March, losing only the 1 game at Oxford during the final run in.
This illustrates Curbs' point about momentum and finishing the season strongly. Something Portsmouth and Sunderland couldn't do despite their impressive points totals.
Tables don't change that much though. 2 seasons ago this was the top 7 when we had played 23 games, and then the final league table. The same teams feature, with really the only significant difference being that Pompey and Sunderland slipped a bit while Barnsley improved. We were 7 points better off than we are now incidentally.
The same teams involved, but plenty of change within the final positions. Doncaster finished 15 points behind Charlton and Posh missed out on the playoffs altogether.
I mean after 23 games, runaway leaders Portsmouth were 8 points clear of 3rd, but eventually missed out on the autos. After Christmas, Luton were on an incredible unbeaten run until losing at The Valley late in the season. Barnsley also put a very good run together in the 2nd half of the season. While Sunderland had loads of games in hand yet couldn't buy a win, when poised to finished 2nd.
I believe our game 23 was a home win against Gillingham following our defeat at Blackpool .... but then, the next 2 games over Christmas were both lost (3 defeats in 4 games) before a New Years Day win over Walsall and a draw at home to Sunderland; wins against Shrewsbury and Accrington. I remember we slumped in February with Taylor suspended and Grant sold, dropping plenty of points.
My point is that we were very inconsistant for about 10 or 12 weeks, winning only 4 games in that period, and even dropped out of the play off positions until we got our run going early in March, losing only the 1 game at Oxford during the final run in.
This illustrates Curbs' point about momentum and finishing the season strongly. Something Portsmouth and Sunderland couldn't do despite their impressive points totals.
Identical then to having a very good run for about 10 or 12 weeks, and then having a poor run-in.
I'll try again ... there are three points up for grabs in every game. It doesn't matter when you win the points. The total is unaffected.
Incidentally, take a note of the number of defeats each of the top teams had at the end of the season. Between five and ten (I'll ignore Doncaster as they barely sneaked into the Play-Off places). We have recorded seven already. It feels like there are fewer draws this season.
Final observation ... we have 36 points from 23 games. We'll probably need to match that (at least) to have a chance of 6th place.
Where momentum really helps is going into the playoffs. I remember in 1996 we stuttered into the playoffs and comfortably lost to Palace, whereas in 1998 we had been on an incredible run which took us all the way.
Tables don't change that much though. 2 seasons ago this was the top 7 when we had played 23 games, and then the final league table. The same teams feature, with really the only significant difference being that Pompey and Sunderland slipped a bit while Barnsley improved. We were 7 points better off than we are now incidentally.
The same teams involved, but plenty of change within the final positions. Doncaster finished 15 points behind Charlton and Posh missed out on the playoffs altogether.
I mean after 23 games, runaway leaders Portsmouth were 8 points clear of 3rd, but eventually missed out on the autos. After Christmas, Luton were on an incredible unbeaten run until losing at The Valley late in the season. Barnsley also put a very good run together in the 2nd half of the season. While Sunderland had loads of games in hand yet couldn't buy a win, when poised to finished 2nd.
I believe our game 23 was a home win against Gillingham following our defeat at Blackpool .... but then, the next 2 games over Christmas were both lost (3 defeats in 4 games) before a New Years Day win over Walsall and a draw at home to Sunderland; wins against Shrewsbury and Accrington. I remember we slumped in February with Taylor suspended and Grant sold, dropping plenty of points.
My point is that we were very inconsistant for about 10 or 12 weeks, winning only 4 games in that period, and even dropped out of the play off positions until we got our run going early in March, losing only the 1 game at Oxford during the final run in.
This illustrates Curbs' point about momentum and finishing the season strongly. Something Portsmouth and Sunderland couldn't do despite their impressive points totals.
Identical then to having a very good run for about 10 or 12 weeks, and then having a poor run-in.
I'll try again ... there are three points up for grabs in every game. It doesn't matter when you win the points. The total is unaffected.
Incidentally, take a note of the number of defeats each of the top teams had at the end of the season. Between five and ten (I'll ignore Doncaster as they barely sneaked into the Play-Off places). We have recorded seven already. It feels like there are fewer draws this season.
Final observation ... we have 36 points from 23 games. We'll probably need to match that (at least) to have a chance of 6th place.
Of course, there are 3 points up for grabs in every game. It doesn't matter when you win the points. But if you don't pick up points on a consistent run right now, it's not the end of the world ...... or at least not while there's half a season to play.
Number of defeats: Sunderland were only beaten 5 times that season but drew 19 games. Charlton lost 10 ...... but won 4 more games than Sunderland. And that made the difference in points and final position.
Yep, we'll need at least 36 points from 23 games ...... but then there's plenty of time for another good run like we had earlier this season.
Anyway, I expect you as well as myself are tired of this discussion, so I'm happy for us both to have our own ways of looking at things.
It is obvious that recent form and points accumulated is a strong indicator of how a team is performing. It is obvious that you would rather face a team out of form than a team in form. If a team is having their strong run at the end of the season and end up in the play offs, against a team having a poor run, the most likely outcome is the form team wins.
It 100% does matter when you win the points, if there are play offs involved at the end of the season. The form team is more likely to win the play offs.
2 years ago Portsmouth and Sunderland had their strong runs early in the season and Charlton came through strongly at the end.
The form team Charlton were promoted. Curbs knows it, Oggy knows it, most everyone knows it. There's no point trying again, it's apparent you don't understand.
So it can only really be Gallen or ultimately TS that he's having a bit of a pop at. And I don't think it's Gallen. The conspiracy theorist might suspect Tommy's holding back the purse strings a bit because he's not 100% on Bowyer?
It is obvious that recent form and points accumulated is a strong indicator of how a team is performing. It is obvious that you would rather face a team out of form than a team in form. If a team is having their strong run at the end of the season and end up in the play offs, against a team having a poor run, the most likely outcome is the form team wins.
It 100% does matter when you win the points, if there are play offs involved at the end of the season. The form team is more likely to win the play offs.
2 years ago Portsmouth and Sunderland had their strong runs early in the season and Charlton came through strongly at the end.
The form team Charlton were promoted. Curbs knows it, Oggy knows it, most everyone knows it. There's no point trying again, it's apparent you don't understand.
Haven't done the full research ... and I appreciate that this is Championship data ... but it would appear that you, Curbs, Oggy and 'most everyone' might be wrong.
From the Stats Zone:
- We can clearly see that over the last 10 years the team finishing in 3rd place has won the play offs 60% of the time, a significant advantage over the other final positions of those in the play offs.
The next step is to look into the role of momentum for teams going into the play offs. Let's see how much of an important factor momentum has been in the past 10 years by looking into the form from the last 6 games prior to the play offs. The numbers in red denote the play off winners for that season.
- Interestingly momentum seems to count for very little heading into the Championship play offs. Only once in the last 10 years has the team with the outright most amount of points from their last 6 games gone up via the play offs.
- Only once has a team with the outright fewest points from the last 6 games gone on to win promotion via the play offs. This feat goes to Derby County in the 2006/07 season who blew their chances of automatic promotion but regained their composure to win the play offs.
In the Championship finishing in 3rd place has yielded the greatest amount of success in terms of play off winners. Whilst having the greatest amount of momentum heading into the play offs doesn’t seem to have much impact at all.
You will let me know if this is too hard to understand, won't you?
A lot of the talk about whether it's better/okay to have a poor run of form now or later, especially the argument that it's okay to have a "blip" as long as your momentum picks up towards the end of the season seems to be rather missing the point that we might not ever pick that momentum up.
Frequently one team or another does end up putting a good run together at the end of the season but there's no reason to assume that it will be us.
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Given TS talked about reaching the Premier league in (i think it was) 5 seasons, you'd have to consider it a major setback to spend 2 of them in league one.
Even more so given that the salary cap situation becomes harder next year.
It is obvious that recent form and points accumulated is a strong indicator of how a team is performing. It is obvious that you would rather face a team out of form than a team in form. If a team is having their strong run at the end of the season and end up in the play offs, against a team having a poor run, the most likely outcome is the form team wins.
It 100% does matter when you win the points, if there are play offs involved at the end of the season. The form team is more likely to win the play offs.
2 years ago Portsmouth and Sunderland had their strong runs early in the season and Charlton came through strongly at the end.
The form team Charlton were promoted. Curbs knows it, Oggy knows it, most everyone knows it. There's no point trying again, it's apparent you don't understand.
Haven't done the full research ... and I appreciate that this is Championship data ... but it would appear that you, Curbs, Oggy and 'most everyone' might be wrong.
From the Stats Zone:
- We can clearly see that over the last 10 years the team finishing in 3rd place has won the play offs 60% of the time, a significant advantage over the other final positions of those in the play offs.
The next step is to look into the role of momentum for teams going into the play offs. Let's see how much of an important factor momentum has been in the past 10 years by looking into the form from the last 6 games prior to the play offs. The numbers in red denote the play off winners for that season.
- Interestingly momentum seems to count for very little heading into the Championship play offs. Only once in the last 10 years has the team with the outright most amount of points from their last 6 games gone up via the play offs.
- Only once has a team with the outright fewest points from the last 6 games gone on to win promotion via the play offs. This feat goes to Derby County in the 2006/07 season who blew their chances of automatic promotion but regained their composure to win the play offs.
In the Championship finishing in 3rd place has yielded the greatest amount of success in terms of play off winners. Whilst having the greatest amount of momentum heading into the play offs doesn’t seem to have much impact at all.
You will let me know if this is too hard to understand, won't you?
You say the last 10 years I see 5 of them missing 🤷♂️
Can I just point out when I started this thread it was straight after a loss so was feeling very agitated then. So what I’m about to say will contradict this.
In a position we’re in given the circumstances from start of the season and before I think we’re doing ok. Not brilliant but ok.
Lee’s had to put up with lots of shit during his time as a manager.
Some people talk about his first season and how it’s been easy for him but you got to remember we had a lower budget than the likes of Sunderland and Portsmouth. The likes of Bielik wasn’t a obvious player to have, he played a few games with Walsall before! Roland wasn’t investing heavily in the squad, our recent signing Ronnie was our most expensive signing under Lee. Sunderland paid £3M for Will Griggs and he hasn’t set a light. That should tell you a lot!
Last season we let Bauer and Aribo go because Roland wouldn’t give them the wage they deserved and Roland wouldn’t invest in Bielik. We had the lowest budget in the Championship. If it wasn’t the sheer amount of injuries, ESI and prats like Taylor we would’ve stayed up.
This season, our biggest problem was the ownership circus and the wage cap. While we were in an embargo other teams were investing when we couldn’t and the wage cap didn’t come in until our ownership issue was sorted so we couldn’t invest like other teams around us did. Peterborough last night had JCH and he would’ve resolved our strike force issue.
I think some of you need to look at the bigger picture. Bowyer isn’t perfect and I had my share of criticisms over some of his decisions but ffs he would’ve been a Premier League manager if he didn’t make those mistakes. Who’s going to come in to make us better?
I feel we need to see what this January window bring’s, where we finish this season and potentially the start of next season where we stand with Bowyer. Replacing him now with someone else isn’t the right decision IMO.
Exactly my thoughts. Perfectly summed up @discocafc
Take away the fact that I think the job is affecting Bowyers mental state & I can understand the sentiment that Bowyer has earned the right to be given time. However, I don't accept the mentality that this season is a 'free hit' for him until he can rebuild in the summer.
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
Given TS talked about reaching the Premier league in (i think it was) 5 seasons, you'd have to consider it a major setback to spend 2 of them in league one.
Even more so given that the salary cap situation becomes harder next year.
We say a lot when starting out on a new journey. Then, at some point along the line, look back and think, did I really say that
Comments
If it is accepted and the position is that we owe Bowyer, that is an incredible position, effectively elevating Bowyer above the club.
The conspiracy theorist might suspect Tommy's holding back the purse strings a bit because he's not 100% on Bowyer?
Anything outside the top 6 will be unacceptable & I reckon TS would see it the same way
It might just be the other club weren't happy with a detail; and while waiting for a solution decided in the meantime to keep him available for their own match day squad this week. Or any reason really.
Bowyer may have thought it was a straightforward signing and simply alluding that we didn't allow enough time for contingencies that subsequently developed. He's just frustrated he didn't have an extra player in the squad, not that's he's blaming anyone in particular or that Thomas won't support him.
There's obviously going to be a couple more comings and goings this transfer window.
People seem to be anxious that because we're not top of the League right now, that means we have no chance at all of promotion this season.
Some are forgetting that in our promotion year 2 seasons ago, we weren't exactly in a rich vein of form and certainly very inconsistent, roughly in the table where we are now. It was only during the last dozen games that we properly got our act together and went on a terrific run.
As Curbs keeps saying, "if you're going to have a blip, have it now. But make sure you get it together for the final 10 game run in".
Lee’s had to put up with lots of shit during his time as a manager.
Some people talk about his first season and how it’s been easy for him but you got to remember we had a lower budget than the likes of Sunderland and Portsmouth. The likes of Bielik wasn’t a obvious player to have, he played a few games with Walsall before! Roland wasn’t investing heavily in the squad, our recent signing Ronnie was our most expensive signing under Lee. Sunderland paid £3M for Will Griggs and he hasn’t set a light. That should tell you a lot!
Last season we let Bauer and Aribo go because Roland wouldn’t give them the wage they deserved and Roland wouldn’t invest in Bielik. We had the lowest budget in the Championship. If it wasn’t the sheer amount of injuries, ESI and prats like Taylor we would’ve stayed up.
This season, our biggest problem was the ownership circus and the wage cap. While we were in an embargo other teams were investing when we couldn’t and the wage cap didn’t come in until our ownership issue was sorted so we couldn’t invest like other teams around us did. Peterborough last night had JCH and he would’ve resolved our strike force issue.
I think some of you need to look at the bigger picture. Bowyer isn’t perfect and I had my share of criticisms over some of his decisions but ffs he would’ve been a Premier League manager if he didn’t make those mistakes. Who’s going to come in to make us better?
I feel we need to see what this January window bring’s, where we finish this season and potentially the start of next season where we stand with Bowyer. Replacing him now with someone else isn’t the right decision IMO.
First, don't have the blip. And, second, get the points in now. You don't have to wait until the final ten games. The points will be worth the same.
Thing is, without more additions to the squad, we don't look like going on the required run either now or later in the season.
I still haven't seen it amongst the avalanche of posts on 20 different threads today.
Yeah, you're not wrong. But that doesn't make you right either.
If you were, the best team in the division would be champions by Christmas.
Old adage time: "the season is a marathon not a sprint".
Of course, every manager and fan wants to get the points in the bag as soon as possible. But football's not like that: injuries, suspensions, plain old loss of form, etc., takes a toll ....... every team goes through various dips of form throughout the season - and we're certainly going through ours right now. But Hull, Peterborough, even League leaders Lincoln have also had rough patches with no doubt another to come. Accrington, for all their good form, have just lost 3 games in a row. It happens.
Winning runs too. We had one that propelled us from 19th to 3rd. Is it impossible to have another this season?
And as for Curbs' "piece of old nonsense". Well, he's been there and done it, hands on.
He reckons better to finish strongly, than run out of steam in the last few games.
Remember nailed on automatic promotion favourites Sunderland and Portsmouth in our recent promotion season?
Almost home and dry, weren't they? Games in hand too.
But we ended the season on a strong run and finished above them.
Effective management for any task requires the best use of the available resources and Bows has been failing on this account with examples plastered over this site.
Can't believe practical advice from others would not be available within the club's framework. Otherwise CharltonLife should set up a consultancy arm!
Advice is just that. Advice promotes discussion and potential outcomes can then be accepted or rejected on their merits before any harm is done. This would open up potential options and leave some sort of decision structure that could be reviewed and developed with time.
And maybe enable collective decision making, relieving some of the pressure off Lee. Footy is after all a team game...
And we are all in this together.
The same teams involved, but plenty of change within the final positions.
Doncaster finished 15 points behind Charlton and Posh missed out on the playoffs altogether.
I mean after 23 games, runaway leaders Portsmouth were 8 points clear of 3rd, but eventually missed out on the autos.
After Christmas, Luton were on an incredible unbeaten run until losing at The Valley late in the season. Barnsley also put a very good run together in the 2nd half of the season. While Sunderland had loads of games in hand yet couldn't buy a win, when poised to finished 2nd.
I believe our game 23 was a home win against Gillingham following our defeat at Blackpool .... but then, the next 2 games over Christmas were both lost (3 defeats in 4 games) before a New Years Day win over Walsall and a draw at home to Sunderland; wins against Shrewsbury and Accrington. I remember we slumped in February with Taylor suspended and Grant sold, dropping plenty of points.
My point is that we were very inconsistant for about 10 or 12 weeks, winning only 4 games in that period, and even dropped out of the play off positions until we got our run going early in March, losing only the 1 game at Oxford during the final run in.
This illustrates Curbs' point about momentum and finishing the season strongly. Something Portsmouth and Sunderland couldn't do despite their impressive points totals.
I'll try again ... there are three points up for grabs in every game. It doesn't matter when you win the points. The total is unaffected.
Incidentally, take a note of the number of defeats each of the top teams had at the end of the season. Between five and ten (I'll ignore Doncaster as they barely sneaked into the Play-Off places). We have recorded seven already. It feels like there are fewer draws this season.
Final observation ... we have 36 points from 23 games. We'll probably need to match that (at least) to have a chance of 6th place.
But if you don't pick up points on a consistent run right now, it's not the end of the world ...... or at least not while there's half a season to play.
Number of defeats: Sunderland were only beaten 5 times that season but drew 19 games.
Charlton lost 10 ...... but won 4 more games than Sunderland. And that made the difference in points and final position.
Yep, we'll need at least 36 points from 23 games ...... but then there's plenty of time for another good run like we had earlier this season.
Anyway, I expect you as well as myself are tired of this discussion, so I'm happy for us both to have our own ways of looking at things.
It is obvious that you would rather face a team out of form than a team in form.
If a team is having their strong run at the end of the season and end up in the play offs, against a team having a poor run, the most likely outcome is the form team wins.
It 100% does matter when you win the points, if there are play offs involved at the end of the season.
The form team is more likely to win the play offs.
2 years ago Portsmouth and Sunderland had their strong runs early in the season and Charlton came through strongly at the end.
The form team Charlton were promoted.
Curbs knows it, Oggy knows it, most everyone knows it.
There's no point trying again, it's apparent you don't understand.
Haven't done the full research ... and I appreciate that this is Championship data ... but it would appear that you, Curbs, Oggy and 'most everyone' might be wrong.
From the Stats Zone:
- We can clearly see that over the last 10 years the team finishing in 3rd place has won the play offs 60% of the time, a significant advantage over the other final positions of those in the play offs.
The next step is to look into the role of momentum for teams going into the play offs. Let's see how much of an important factor momentum has been in the past 10 years by looking into the form from the last 6 games prior to the play offs. The numbers in red denote the play off winners for that season.
- Interestingly momentum seems to count for very little heading into the Championship play offs. Only once in the last 10 years has the team with the outright most amount of points from their last 6 games gone up via the play offs.
- Only once has a team with the outright fewest points from the last 6 games gone on to win promotion via the play offs. This feat goes to Derby County in the 2006/07 season who blew their chances of automatic promotion but regained their composure to win the play offs.
In the Championship finishing in 3rd place has yielded the greatest amount of success in terms of play off winners. Whilst having the greatest amount of momentum heading into the play offs doesn’t seem to have much impact at all.
You will let me know if this is too hard to understand, won't you?
Frequently one team or another does end up putting a good run together at the end of the season but there's no reason to assume that it will be us.
Even more so given that the salary cap situation becomes harder next year.