Abs to think @AFKABartram that for several years you were looking forward to the time when the ownership shenanagins would be over and we could focus the forum back on commenting on the football 😂
No doubt he does. Today for me the turning point wasn't the red card (this may have been said before, if so apologies) but when JFC went off. To me he is our most influential player, yet you only notice it once he's not there as we lost all of the impetus we had gained for the remainder of the first half. Fair enough, you can't legislate for a player getting injured, but Shinnie looks at his most effective playing wide and moving him inside negated that threat. DJ certainly looks an exciting player, but as we had got a bit of superiority maybe the sub should have been like for like. All the talk of us conceding "worldies" is fine, but we have often been guilty of allowing the space to do so, as their second proved today. It is a bit of a contradiction in terms saying we have a poor home record when there is no-one there and Curbs rightly said a crowd would have made a difference, but LB does seem to get better overall performances when we play away, Burton excepted, so it does make you wonder if there is a different approach/atmosphere/mentality towards home games that are now more repetitive than ever before. Is the build up different, both for players and manager? Does getting changed in a lounge make a difference? Whatever it may be, Bow seems a lot more nervy and irrational in SE7 than out of it. And as has been mentioned previously, genuinely don't know the answer but the thought is there - how was the January window managed - and how much input?
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
"Has he been successful though?"
Well we weren't going to make the play-offs in 17/18 with Karl Robinson in charge, so I'd say he was a success at the end of that season.
The following season we got promoted. We started that season unable to fill the substitutes bench. We spent £0 in transfer fees. So I think it's fair to say that he was successful that season.
I take your point about him leaving us in a very similar position to the one he took over in. Presumably you'd also say that Claudio Ranieri wasn't a success at Leicester, because he left Leicester in the relegation zone, so the Premier League title he won the year before is a bit irrelevant. Maybe Jurgen Klopp (sorry for the repeated reference to him) will leave Liverpool at the end of the season after finishing outside the Champions League places, in which case - by your logic - he isn't a success either, despite delivering the Premier League title and the Champions League. Mauricio Pochettino - took over a side that had just finished 6th, left them in 14th, another failure of a manager. Arsene Wenger also not successful (based on your criteria), and Alf Ramsey got sacked after failing to qualify for World Cup 1974, so he was an unsuccessful England manager.
Of course, I recognise that all of these comparisons are ridiculous - none of the aforementioned had to work within the ridiculous constraints applied by Roland, or the turmoil that followed that, or anything even remotely comparable to that.
I find it really weird that people on here attribute blame to Bowyer for our relegation last season. It's not much different to making Paul Jones the scapegoat for Wigan's relegation. It's as if the transfer window last January (when our owners forgot to tell us that we were under a transfer embargo) isn't relevant. And all the games that we dominated after lockdown, when we had no Taylor and Macauley Bonne had chance after chance but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, that isn't relevant either. And of course, we had a lower budget than anyone else in the Championship, so at a disadvantage before the season even started, but that doesn't matter either.
It's only a few months ago that we were all united in fear that we might not have a club to support for much longer. I was proud of our support back then, and for the years before that when we were fighting against Roland. But now that the club's secure, most seem to have forgotten how grateful we were to have Bowyer and Jacko while everything else was going to shit in the background. Now we're no different from Chelsea, Palace, Newcastle, Spurs and the rest - unable to see the bigger picture and ready to change our managers as often as we change our socks, regardless of what's gone before.
It's not been very good recently, I can see that. He's made poor selection choices at times, and defensively we've been awful (since we lost our two best centre-backs). We were lousy against Portsmouth and Accrington. But we were good against Rochdale and MK Dons. If he has "lost it", then it's a bit weird that he keeps finding it again. I thought "losing it" was a permanent state. We were potent in attack today, and suicidal in defence, although not helped by a really soft sending off.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
I think the defence is our issue and there's not an alternative manager that would get more out of them.
If we get Inniss and Famewo back then the side will look completely different but time is running out in terms of this season.
Think he deserves the season and especially when he hasn't had his first choice centre backs for over half of it.
Tired of the flip flopping depending on whether we win or lose.
Are you seriously saying that no other manager could have done a better job?
No doubt some would get more from this squad - plenty would do similar or worse too, think Slade, Parkinson, Robinson and personally I’d include Powell in that group as well.
I’d want a big rebuild if we somehow went up with this squad, it would seriously struggle in the Championship.
I find it difficult to blame Bowyer and Gallen for that when they had to sign over 10 players in two weeks with the salary cap in place. I think it’s safe to assume very few promotion sides have been built in similar circumstances.
I’m not fully Bowyer in or out at the moment. For me if we change manager it’s probably not going to resolve the main issues, I see it more likely to end in the way Powell’s first season did and we’d come to accept this squad isn’t quite up to it. Too many players who are good on paper and yet at the same time many of them we’d happily replace in the summer.
It’ll be interesting to see what TS does if anything over the next few months. A few decisions could be the difference between his plan and ambition coming together or several years of us sloshing around in this league.
Powell inherited a hopeless squad from Parky and couldn't do anything with them - Parky was pretty unfairly sacked in my view given the dross he was working with then.
Bowyer has a much better squad than Parky had and we're basically showing relegation form over the last 18 games - a bit more than a blip. He's underachieving and if he continues like this he fully deserves the sack. The patience of TS will run out...
Easy to call that squad dross now but at the time many didn't agree and wanted both Parky and later Powell sacked. In a year or two I don't think we as a fanbase we will rate this squad as highly as we do now.
Who exactly thought the squad Parky had was good? Pawel Abbott Akpo Sodje Joe Anyinsah Tamer Tuna Nathan Eccleston Miguel Llera Gary Doherty Frank Nouble Paul Benson Kyel Reid
I think the defence is our issue and there's not an alternative manager that would get more out of them.
If we get Inniss and Famewo back then the side will look completely different but time is running out in terms of this season.
Think he deserves the season and especially when he hasn't had his first choice centre backs for over half of it.
Tired of the flip flopping depending on whether we win or lose.
Are you seriously saying that no other manager could have done a better job?
No doubt some would get more from this squad - plenty would do similar or worse too, think Slade, Parkinson, Robinson and personally I’d include Powell in that group as well.
I’d want a big rebuild if we somehow went up with this squad, it would seriously struggle in the Championship.
I find it difficult to blame Bowyer and Gallen for that when they had to sign over 10 players in two weeks with the salary cap in place. I think it’s safe to assume very few promotion sides have been built in similar circumstances.
I’m not fully Bowyer in or out at the moment. For me if we change manager it’s probably not going to resolve the main issues, I see it more likely to end in the way Powell’s first season did and we’d come to accept this squad isn’t quite up to it. Too many players who are good on paper and yet at the same time many of them we’d happily replace in the summer.
It’ll be interesting to see what TS does if anything over the next few months. A few decisions could be the difference between his plan and ambition coming together or several years of us sloshing around in this league.
Powell inherited a hopeless squad from Parky and couldn't do anything with them - Parky was pretty unfairly sacked in my view given the dross he was working with then.
Bowyer has a much better squad than Parky had and we're basically showing relegation form over the last 18 games - a bit more than a blip. He's underachieving and if he continues like this he fully deserves the sack. The patience of TS will run out...
Easy to call that squad dross now but at the time many didn't agree and wanted both Parky and later Powell sacked. In a year or two I don't think we as a fanbase we will rate this squad as highly as we do now.
Who exactly thought the squad Parky had was good? Pawel Abbott Akpo Sodje Joe Anyinsah Tamer Tuna Nathan Eccleston Miguel Llera Gary Doherty Frank Nouble Paul Benson Kyel Reid
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
I still think ‘life’ is playing a massive part in accentuating the unrest.
We’re all f***ed off having to endure with these living life limitations and the overall depressive backdrop. We’ve all got a lot less to focus on, the fortunes of our football team are being magnified, and our unhappiness with it all is, by default, being escalated. It was additionally escalated because we had a new owner with what we think is a few quid. Yet, in reality, due to the salary cap that has had no impact.
Sandgaard however has been given a massive lesson in just how fickle football fans can be. 2-3 months ago he was constantly bombarded with people ensuring he recognised Bowyer was a Mr Charlton legend that needed protection and preservation. A disappointing two months has been all that’s needed to see that almost completely unwound
I don’t know about that, I think regardless of what was going on in the real world a decent proportion of our fans would be kicking off if we were on a dreadful run and trending towards mid table in the third division, we aren’t exactly backwards in being forward. I’m actually surprised that there isn’t more unrest given that football is one of the only things to focus on at the moment.
I think the defence is our issue and there's not an alternative manager that would get more out of them.
If we get Inniss and Famewo back then the side will look completely different but time is running out in terms of this season.
Think he deserves the season and especially when he hasn't had his first choice centre backs for over half of it.
Tired of the flip flopping depending on whether we win or lose.
Are you seriously saying that no other manager could have done a better job?
No doubt some would get more from this squad - plenty would do similar or worse too, think Slade, Parkinson, Robinson and personally I’d include Powell in that group as well.
I’d want a big rebuild if we somehow went up with this squad, it would seriously struggle in the Championship.
I find it difficult to blame Bowyer and Gallen for that when they had to sign over 10 players in two weeks with the salary cap in place. I think it’s safe to assume very few promotion sides have been built in similar circumstances.
I’m not fully Bowyer in or out at the moment. For me if we change manager it’s probably not going to resolve the main issues, I see it more likely to end in the way Powell’s first season did and we’d come to accept this squad isn’t quite up to it. Too many players who are good on paper and yet at the same time many of them we’d happily replace in the summer.
It’ll be interesting to see what TS does if anything over the next few months. A few decisions could be the difference between his plan and ambition coming together or several years of us sloshing around in this league.
Powell inherited a hopeless squad from Parky and couldn't do anything with them - Parky was pretty unfairly sacked in my view given the dross he was working with then.
Bowyer has a much better squad than Parky had and we're basically showing relegation form over the last 18 games - a bit more than a blip. He's underachieving and if he continues like this he fully deserves the sack. The patience of TS will run out...
Easy to call that squad dross now but at the time many didn't agree and wanted both Parky and later Powell sacked. In a year or two I don't think we as a fanbase we will rate this squad as highly as we do now.
Who exactly thought the squad Parky had was good? Pawel Abbott Akpo Sodje Joe Anyinsah Tamer Tuna Nathan Eccleston Miguel Llera Gary Doherty Frank Nouble Paul Benson Kyel Reid
Just to name a few - happy days!
Abbott = Bogle
Llera = Pearce
Doherty = Watson
Nothing will ever compare to Llera/Doherty- they had the lot.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
I still think ‘life’ is playing a massive part in accentuating the unrest.
We’re all f***ed off having to endure with these living life limitations and the overall depressive backdrop. We’ve all got a lot less to focus on, the fortunes of our football team are being magnified, and our unhappiness with it all is, by default, being escalated. It was additionally escalated because we had a new owner with what we think is a few quid. Yet, in reality, due to the salary cap that has had no impact.
Sandgaard however has been given a massive lesson in just how fickle football fans can be. 2-3 months ago he was constantly bombarded with people ensuring he recognised Bowyer was a Mr Charlton legend that needed protection and preservation. A disappointing two months has been all that’s needed to see that almost completely unwound
We are never going to be successful because we are conceding too many goals. We’ve been leaking goals almost every match since November. Our discipline is terrible and we do not have the mental strength to recover from a 1-0 defeat to win matches.
We are never going to be promoted if these continue, until we sort these out we are stuck in league 1.
I think the defence is our issue and there's not an alternative manager that would get more out of them.
If we get Inniss and Famewo back then the side will look completely different but time is running out in terms of this season.
Think he deserves the season and especially when he hasn't had his first choice centre backs for over half of it.
Tired of the flip flopping depending on whether we win or lose.
Are you seriously saying that no other manager could have done a better job?
No doubt some would get more from this squad - plenty would do similar or worse too, think Slade, Parkinson, Robinson and personally I’d include Powell in that group as well.
I’d want a big rebuild if we somehow went up with this squad, it would seriously struggle in the Championship.
I find it difficult to blame Bowyer and Gallen for that when they had to sign over 10 players in two weeks with the salary cap in place. I think it’s safe to assume very few promotion sides have been built in similar circumstances.
I’m not fully Bowyer in or out at the moment. For me if we change manager it’s probably not going to resolve the main issues, I see it more likely to end in the way Powell’s first season did and we’d come to accept this squad isn’t quite up to it. Too many players who are good on paper and yet at the same time many of them we’d happily replace in the summer.
It’ll be interesting to see what TS does if anything over the next few months. A few decisions could be the difference between his plan and ambition coming together or several years of us sloshing around in this league.
Powell inherited a hopeless squad from Parky and couldn't do anything with them - Parky was pretty unfairly sacked in my view given the dross he was working with then.
Bowyer has a much better squad than Parky had and we're basically showing relegation form over the last 18 games - a bit more than a blip. He's underachieving and if he continues like this he fully deserves the sack. The patience of TS will run out...
Easy to call that squad dross now but at the time many didn't agree and wanted both Parky and later Powell sacked. In a year or two I don't think we as a fanbase we will rate this squad as highly as we do now.
Who exactly thought the squad Parky had was good? Pawel Abbott Akpo Sodje Joe Anyinsah Tamer Tuna Nathan Eccleston Miguel Llera Gary Doherty Frank Nouble Paul Benson Kyel Reid
Just to name a few - happy days!
Everyone who wanted Parky and later Powell sacked for not making the play-offs with that squad.
Bowyers demise can best be highlighted by the fact that only a few months ago we were worried he might be lured elsewhere. Me included. His star has fallen and I doubt there’s a chairman anywhere that has his name in their diary. We’re at this point absolutely dreadful and have been for months.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
I don't think he needs to go and would give him until December to see what can happen with a bit of continuity and stability. But maybe, with so many people on here with better knowledge and who would do much better, TS might consider a change earlier?!
I am long past rising to the challenge of much of the nonsense on here. You can make up your own entitlements & expectations to your hearts content. You can even rewrite your own history of 2019/20 if you must.
However I concede to being tired of the endless verbal stamping of feet when such internet fantasies collide with reality. In my world I recognise many of the challenges this season.
The profile is not uncommon in football. A few relegation exhausted “retainees”, an unrelenting churn of new faces, the usual vagary of injuries, a few returning unfit players, a few punts and a few youngsters. It is the profile of .........a normal reserve squad.
You think 17 new outfield signings is normal? Circa 70-80% staff turnover?, half within 3 weeks? No pre season preparation, no pre season training, minimal match fitness strength & conditioning.
Such is a world of basics, of core platforms, of new working relationships and not getting stuffed every week. New disciplines to register, new clubhouse dynamics to build, new personalities to understand.
4 weeks into the season, no time to experiment, no set pecking order, just straight into a Tuesday - Saturday - Tuesday fixture list - 2 pre match prep days - 2 match days - 2 rest days and a travel day. The training ground? It looks nice. Players not in the mix? When do they play?
Start your best team? No Doughty, no Inniss, no Famewo, no Gilbey, Managing Aneke, Just who will last 40+ games? Little has changed Bowyer & Gallen have had to build, rebuild and rebuild again under a mixture of draconian & bizarre circumstances. You know this. Yet some create a scale of entitlement based on?
The double speak is extraordinary.
- I don’t blame Bowyer for our relegation but I do? Vacillating nonsense.
- Hide behind the ownership crap? WTF?
- Playing on the front foot? Where have we had the capacity to consistently play on the front foot? Did we with Taylor, Grant & Aribo? Or with Taylor, Leko, Gallagher? Yes we did.
You play on the front foot when you have the competitive skill sets & ability to create the platform do so. To recruit/ retain such skill sets & ability depends entirely on the resources provided by the executive.
Win with lesser players? Who? Where? Wilder? Dyche? Howe? There are lesser players and there are lesser players. Our ultimate 2020 attacking threat consisted of 2 National League players, an unfit L2 forward and a Sunderland outcast. Front fucking foot?
Who determined a L1 squad denuded of 5 key players should survive a campaign adding just 3 Championship players who barely kicked a ball in anger. 2 arrived in the last hours of August likely via the Duchâtelet-Dahan link. Neither gained full fitness. The 3rd was Davis. Competitive resources? ROFL.
The post lockdown performance was governed, after a series of unprecedented injuries/withdrawals, by our ability to recruit in 2019/20 as defined in the last hour January loan signing of Davis.
The EFL allowed his transfer after the collapse of a Bostock loan. It failed because his temporary French club simply could not be bothered to sign the paperwork. It was pure Sunday League. It was so Charlton 2020. You want to sell that shit to a battered clubhouse fighting to survive?
Have you read the Shenanigans thread? And that’s the Managers fault? What the hell business do you work in? Does none of this register?
Nah, bollocks to that I knows my football I does.
Actually there are 15 players who did benefit from being given a platform by Bowyer. With a competitive budget at least 7 could have still been with us. We refused to pay them.
This obsession around square pegs in round holes now borders on being child like. None of the “punts” come anywhere the Kenning experience. I was there. Why do managers make such decisions? Because invariably the “round pegs” are either unavailable or simply not performing. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. Certainly worked with Djiksteel.
The rotation? Take out 4 games and you have 3 nuances of 4-4-2 (18 times) and 4-3-3 (6 times). It comes with the territory of an ever churning squad, late acquisitions, injuries, the intensity of this L1 fixture list with no pre season and the nature of the opposition. Most industries call it unavoidable “deep end” training.
Has this thread run its course? Probably but on the basis of some of the most shallow posts I have read Charlton Life for me almost certainly has.
I do not know any poster but who welcomes the back door gossip of a clubhouse “contact”. The guy is stabbing people in the back. How does it serve the club? There is one place for a clubhouse issue. Whining outside the clubhouse is snide, weak, self serving and 100% outside the terms of contract.
He knows his line of communication. Either use it or cancel your contract & go. It is Jackson, Marshall & Basey he is pissing on. Still I suppose living in the gutter reflects the largely poisonous vibe so prevalent across the anonymous self indulgent internet today.
Don’t you just love the footballing officionados of Charlton Life.
Ladies & Gentlemen recall the days of Slade, Robinson & Powell (in the Championship). This board screamed for changes of playing formation week after week after week. Scroll forward to 2021 and ...........
Coaching different systems? Nah, you are alright, everybody knows 4-4-2 (yup - we’ve used it in 65% games)
You guys Coaching in L2, National League, Feeder Leagues forget the badges - no bugger understands anyway - Strange when to get a good job coaching level 8 of the Pyramid I needed my Coaching qualifications 35 YEARS AGO!
Does any of this matter? Not really, the agenda is set.
AFKA I applaud your efforts to want to “park it” but this world of social media is not for reasoned debate it is for those locked into their own mindsets, no matter the breadth & scale of the issues at hand, to repetitively spout largely ill considered nonsense matched only by the puerility of their related wit.
Mostly it boils down to I don’t really get it but “it’s all just gotta be the Managers fault Innit”
Add context? Introduce a broader rationale? Or heaven forbid any facts to extend a post beyond 20 or 30 lines and you are ostentatious and tragically stretch the capacity of some poor souls to even scroll on their phones. Some things really pull at the heart strings don’t they?
No matter the data capacity such is the new posting ocriteria here. The masses will have their opinions. Please just don’t get in the way. So be it. As I withdraw I thought I would however just position some of the expectations.
Of 45 Championship teams relegated since 2004/5 I calculate 10 secured an immediate return.
So all before; 1. The background of skeletal operations & challenged disposable budgets of 3yrs 2. Evidence of alleged executive malfeasance 3. 6 Changes of executive Duchatelet, Southall, Mihail, Elliot/ Farnell, Mihail, Sandgaard in 10 months 4. A trading embargo (& catastrophic Jan 2020 transfer window) 5. COVID 19 6. A truncated close season 7. No pre season 8. A delayed, contentious and uncertain takeover 9. An imposed Salary Cap (now rescinded)
the expectation of a relegated sides’ immediate return registers as less than 25%.
Have you ever written a business proposition?
At a time this business screams for stability from every fibre of its being, in the midst of a pandemic, the social media hordes demand ever more change. Now’t to do with sentimentality, everything to do with structuring a business with the resources and time to empower people to do their job.
Are we there yet boys & girls? No, we have a journey to travel.
This club has operated under the chaos of endless change for 14yrs. It has became our norm. IT IS NOT NORMAL. It offered false dawns in 2011/12 & 2018/19 whereon we witnessed any such success was by definition transitory. That is the reality.
Today the club remains a skeleton of what it was. What do you think the Duchâtelet protest years were about? It was about the fabric of the club being stripped out layer by layer. We have yo-yoed between the Championship and L1 for a decade. Drop the entitlement it speaks to who we are after 6yrs of Duchâtelet. There was always a price to pay.
I have huge respect for Mr Sandgaard who stepped in to rescue us from the hyenas who literally came to “feed off our carcass”. I understand the ambitions, the vision statements and respect he has recruited industry expertise to build a roadmap for the journey he wishes us to travel. He has my full support.
Of course match day experiences matter and there should always be an expectation of a competitive performance with the demand for a successful outcome. Yet even beyond the industry/ structural upheaval/ statistics on just what are we supposed to base a promotion expectation?
We are Charlton? We are Championship? A squad built largely in a matter of 3 weeks? Seriously? These things come back to bite. Who builds a promotion squad with 15 players out of contract at the end of the season?
“Aiming for a top 6 finish” is not a promotion target.It is a default promotion punt.
It just improves the odds from 3 in 24 (12.5%) to 1 in 4 (25%). It is in itself worthless, has its own potential negativity, truncates the close season and delays planning. Hey, that’s a good idea - let’s plan on that!
Let me peel back a layer or two.
Unlike so many I respect any player holding a pro contract with the club, for their ability to contribute, but will focus on just two performances at Rochdale - Purrington and Oshilaja.
I refer you to 20 Oct 2020 where many called for Purrington to never wear the shirt again. Purrington is a most unspectacularly unspectacular but solid full back who has contributed to the club. He is a decent pro.
He is competing with a precocious young fullback on loan from Chelsea. Maatsen offers the potential of a significantly more balanced skill set involving a basic defence but with much greater creative threat. He is 18yrs old. He is playing his first full season in men’s football.
These are your left back combinations to secure a promotion winning campaign?
Matthews? Has in his career started at least 22 games at LB including games against Barcelona (twice) & Benfica. I think he still has more senior starts at left back than Maatsen.
I like Oshilaja. He came to us in the Championship on a Bosman after his initial talks with Luton did not progress. He is a competitive, industrious League 1 defender who has also served AFC Wimbledon & Gillingham.
In the building for over a season at his peak he failed to oust any of Lockyer, Sarr or Pearce. That’s his benchmark. Yet, of all the central defenders this season a couple of weeks ago his CB starts/ to goals conceded were the 2nd worst across all CBs selected.
Despite opportunities last season & this, last week was the first dominant performance he has given. Today?
The player with the worse stats? Pearce. A combative, industrious & very capable defender he has for years struggled to complete more than 25 starts a season and two games within a 7 day period. He complements his skills as a strong leader & game manager.
Why have they struggled? Relegation? No pre season? Injury? Another new squad fatigue? Summer of turmoil facing Administration? Last Contract year? Who knows but both have been well off the pace.
To complement this “established” duo we recruited on loan the emerging talents of Famewo, a young defender with 12 starts in the Scottish Premier and the same number in L2 before ultimately acquiring the talents of Inniss, a capable defender but who had struggled to make 44 senior starts anywhere across 6 seasons. I like him. I think he still offers potential.
Just where was the evidence either could perform for a full L1 season?
Oh you want Barker? You want to tell Bowyer about a 17yr old, weeks into his first pro contract, making their way in the pro game. Seen the lad in the U23s have we? What’s more important? The lads’ career or just maybe a few extra points.
This ladies & gentlemen is your promotion campaign winning central defence/ spine/ bedrock/ core platform? Is it, bollocks.
Bielik, Bauer, Sarr, Pearce? Or Morrison, Taylor and Cort? What was your proposition for promotion again?
There is not a manager on the planet who can enhance any players contribution if they spend half the season in the treatment room. I like the new lads and would love to see them fulfil their potential with us but deliver a promotion? It had risk written through it from Day 1.
Alternatives? With respect perhaps we might reflect Inniss was circa the 43rd new CB signing made in League 1 in the Summer transfer window, i.e. 40+ options plus Lockyer & Sarr had already gone.That is the reality.
Does Bowyer get a free ride? No. Did I agree with the calls on Bogle, Williams, Morgan, Maddison & Bonne? No, but I get it. Bowyer recruited them to do a job. We churn 20 players a season. 65 debuts since Aug 2018. Calling out 5 players? Just park your middle class mindset.
Do I agree with many of the selections/ rotations. No, but I get it. I recognise the operational challenges being faced. First relegation? Completely new squad? A few punts? People are entitled to learn from their experiences. A year ago this site demanded he had an extended contract. The fickleness of the internet supporter is truly, truly pathetic.
Some specimen even positioned support for Bowyer is placing him above the clubs interests. So does that mean every day Mr Sandgaard supports his manager he is acting against the club he owns? At what point does he become the enemy? For the first time in a decade we have an executive and clubhouse aligned and you want to create division? Shame on you.
Park it, AFKA? Sorry I am very clearly, for now, no longer in the right place.
Is Bowyer now claiming that top 6 has never been the aim? Is he fucking sure?
I think top 6 wasn’t expected after 10 games and where we were but in 6th place after 28 games it bloody should be now! Worrying if Bows is hiding behind an out of date expectation, especially with the quality squad he has now. The target after 20 games, and especially now, should be a MINIMUM of the playoffs.
@Grapevine49 I confess to getting lost a bit with the latest missive, in particular the portion regarding our defence.
You appear to be making the point that as a pairing Inniss and Famewo were unlikely to be a success all season, and that even if fit, we would have struggled. That is a fair point. Also that Oshilaja and Pearce are not top quality replacements. Also a fair point.
However: they are what Bowyer has by his own word and deed expressed satisfaction with. By using a right back and a centre midfielder as makeshifts, by an inability or refusal to correct this situation in January. And he has said himself that he did not see any better alternatives.
However, the ownership/financial argument for this does not hold up. We signed Matt Smith II (a central midfielder on loan, who has not yet played.) We spent a fee on Jaiyesimi. Clearly we COULD have at least considered signing a defensive cover, even short term, even on loan. That we did not is on Bowyer.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
"Has he been successful though?"
Well we weren't going to make the play-offs in 17/18 with Karl Robinson in charge, so I'd say he was a success at the end of that season.
The following season we got promoted. We started that season unable to fill the substitutes bench. We spent £0 in transfer fees. So I think it's fair to say that he was successful that season.
I take your point about him leaving us in a very similar position to the one he took over in. Presumably you'd also say that Claudio Ranieri wasn't a success at Leicester, because he left Leicester in the relegation zone, so the Premier League title he won the year before is a bit irrelevant. Maybe Jurgen Klopp (sorry for the repeated reference to him) will leave Liverpool at the end of the season after finishing outside the Champions League places, in which case - by your logic - he isn't a success either, despite delivering the Premier League title and the Champions League. Mauricio Pochettino - took over a side that had just finished 6th, left them in 14th, another failure of a manager. Arsene Wenger also not successful (based on your criteria), and Alf Ramsey got sacked after failing to qualify for World Cup 1974, so he was an unsuccessful England manager.
Of course, I recognise that all of these comparisons are ridiculous - none of the aforementioned had to work within the ridiculous constraints applied by Roland, or the turmoil that followed that, or anything even remotely comparable to that.
I find it really weird that people on here attribute blame to Bowyer for our relegation last season. It's not much different to making Paul Jones the scapegoat for Wigan's relegation. It's as if the transfer window last January (when our owners forgot to tell us that we were under a transfer embargo) isn't relevant. And all the games that we dominated after lockdown, when we had no Taylor and Macauley Bonne had chance after chance but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, that isn't relevant either. And of course, we had a lower budget than anyone else in the Championship, so at a disadvantage before the season even started, but that doesn't matter either.
It's only a few months ago that we were all united in fear that we might not have a club to support for much longer. I was proud of our support back then, and for the years before that when we were fighting against Roland. But now that the club's secure, most seem to have forgotten how grateful we were to have Bowyer and Jacko while everything else was going to shit in the background. Now we're no different from Chelsea, Palace, Newcastle, Spurs and the rest - unable to see the bigger picture and ready to change our managers as often as we change our socks, regardless of what's gone before.
It's not been very good recently, I can see that. He's made poor selection choices at times, and defensively we've been awful (since we lost our two best centre-backs). We were lousy against Portsmouth and Accrington. But we were good against Rochdale and MK Dons. If he has "lost it", then it's a bit weird that he keeps finding it again. I thought "losing it" was a permanent state. We were potent in attack today, and suicidal in defence, although not helped by a really soft sending off.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
You've put a lot of words in my mouth there.
Ranieri and Wenger may have left their clubs in positions even worse when they took over, but they delivered silverware, let's not forget Bowyer didn't win the title and has the advantage of having three shots at promotion. Admittedly that's why it's difficult to compare the two (you were the one who started the Klopp comparison, not me). A manager who joins a Premier League club in 4th, finishes 4th for five years in a row isn't successful, but they would be if they won FA/League cups in that time. Even so, like I say you've put words in my mouth as I never said Bowyer has been unsuccessful. If we finish 11th this season and Bowyer is sacked, has his reign been a success? I'd say he delivered one of the best days of my life, he was a passionate manager who I loved having but overall, no it wouldn't have been a success, we would have gone full circle with him as manager, even with excuses and difficult circumstances.
You can't undo a trophy win. Ramsay was sacked as manager but of course he was a success because we won the World Cup. Klopp won the Champions League. You can't be relegated from the World Cup or Champions League. Ignoring who or what was to blame, our promotion was fairly meaningless because we got relegated straight back down.
I actually agree with the majority of what you have written and I'm not calling for him to sacked. There is a lot of impatience, I include myself in that but despite paying £10 for another shower of shit, I'm happy to give him some more time.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
He did get the opportunity to make some of that right though. The decision to sign another CM and not a CB was ridiculous. My biggest issue with Bowyer has always been his love of a CM. It's almost an obsession because I genuinely do not believe it makes sense at times. The salary cap was difficult, but it brings extra scrutiny/pressure because you can't afford to get much wrong. For me, he got that one wrong
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Don't you think it's a bit late for that? I think Bowyer is now the longest serving manager since Curbs left? How many of those managers were we wrong to "let go"?
Blind loyalty is not a valid reason to keep a manager.
If you think Bowyer is the right person to rebuild the squad, and be trusted with spending Thomas's money, that's a valid point of view. But keeping the wrong manager out of loyalty, or on the grounds of stability, or to take some moral high ground isn't. Is it?
Comments
All the talk of us conceding "worldies" is fine, but we have often been guilty of allowing the space to do so, as their second proved today.
It is a bit of a contradiction in terms saying we have a poor home record when there is no-one there and Curbs rightly said a crowd would have made a difference, but LB does seem to get better overall performances when we play away, Burton excepted, so it does make you wonder if there is a different approach/atmosphere/mentality towards home games that are now more repetitive than ever before. Is the build up different, both for players and manager? Does getting changed in a lounge make a difference? Whatever it may be, Bow seems a lot more nervy and irrational in SE7 than out of it.
And as has been mentioned previously, genuinely don't know the answer but the thought is there - how was the January window managed - and how much input?
Well we weren't going to make the play-offs in 17/18 with Karl Robinson in charge, so I'd say he was a success at the end of that season.
The following season we got promoted. We started that season unable to fill the substitutes bench. We spent £0 in transfer fees. So I think it's fair to say that he was successful that season.
I take your point about him leaving us in a very similar position to the one he took over in. Presumably you'd also say that Claudio Ranieri wasn't a success at Leicester, because he left Leicester in the relegation zone, so the Premier League title he won the year before is a bit irrelevant. Maybe Jurgen Klopp (sorry for the repeated reference to him) will leave Liverpool at the end of the season after finishing outside the Champions League places, in which case - by your logic - he isn't a success either, despite delivering the Premier League title and the Champions League. Mauricio Pochettino - took over a side that had just finished 6th, left them in 14th, another failure of a manager. Arsene Wenger also not successful (based on your criteria), and Alf Ramsey got sacked after failing to qualify for World Cup 1974, so he was an unsuccessful England manager.
Of course, I recognise that all of these comparisons are ridiculous - none of the aforementioned had to work within the ridiculous constraints applied by Roland, or the turmoil that followed that, or anything even remotely comparable to that.
I find it really weird that people on here attribute blame to Bowyer for our relegation last season. It's not much different to making Paul Jones the scapegoat for Wigan's relegation. It's as if the transfer window last January (when our owners forgot to tell us that we were under a transfer embargo) isn't relevant. And all the games that we dominated after lockdown, when we had no Taylor and Macauley Bonne had chance after chance but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, that isn't relevant either. And of course, we had a lower budget than anyone else in the Championship, so at a disadvantage before the season even started, but that doesn't matter either.
It's only a few months ago that we were all united in fear that we might not have a club to support for much longer. I was proud of our support back then, and for the years before that when we were fighting against Roland. But now that the club's secure, most seem to have forgotten how grateful we were to have Bowyer and Jacko while everything else was going to shit in the background. Now we're no different from Chelsea, Palace, Newcastle, Spurs and the rest - unable to see the bigger picture and ready to change our managers as often as we change our socks, regardless of what's gone before.
It's not been very good recently, I can see that. He's made poor selection choices at times, and defensively we've been awful (since we lost our two best centre-backs). We were lousy against Portsmouth and Accrington. But we were good against Rochdale and MK Dons. If he has "lost it", then it's a bit weird that he keeps finding it again. I thought "losing it" was a permanent state. We were potent in attack today, and suicidal in defence, although not helped by a really soft sending off.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
Pawel Abbott
Akpo Sodje
Joe Anyinsah
Tamer Tuna
Nathan Eccleston
Miguel Llera
Gary Doherty
Frank Nouble
Paul Benson
Kyel Reid
Just to name a few - happy days!
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Would love to hear the audio including the question that was asked here, because it was only a week ago we were told that anything other than a top 6 finish would be a poor season
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/charlton-boss-lee-bowyer-anything-other-than-a-top-six-finish-simply-wont-do/
How any of our supporters can just write off a season, happy to just trundle along in this shit division & be ok with it is beyond my comprehension!!
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
We are never going to be promoted if these continue, until we sort these out we are stuck in league 1.
But for a couple of months ago we were all frothing at the mouth on a court room zoom call, watching our beloved club going down the tubes.
Weeks later and we are supposed to be romping this f"""""""g league!
Fickle don't do it justice.
A new owner has come in, backed Bowyer in the transfer market to overhaul the squad & we're massively underperforming.
Times have changed
However I concede to being tired of the endless verbal stamping of feet when such internet fantasies collide with reality. In my world I recognise many of the challenges this season.
The profile is not uncommon in football. A few relegation exhausted “retainees”, an unrelenting churn of new faces, the usual vagary of injuries, a few returning unfit players, a few punts and a few youngsters. It is the profile of .........a normal reserve squad.
You think 17 new outfield signings is normal? Circa 70-80% staff turnover?, half within 3 weeks? No pre season preparation, no pre season training, minimal match fitness strength & conditioning.
Such is a world of basics, of core platforms, of new working relationships and not getting stuffed every week. New disciplines to register, new clubhouse dynamics to build, new personalities to understand.
4 weeks into the season, no time to experiment, no set pecking order, just straight into a Tuesday - Saturday - Tuesday fixture list - 2 pre match prep days - 2 match days - 2 rest days and a travel day. The training ground? It looks nice. Players not in the mix? When do they play?
The double speak is extraordinary.
- I don’t blame Bowyer for our relegation but I do? Vacillating nonsense.
- Hide behind the ownership crap? WTF?
- Playing on the front foot? Where have we had the capacity to consistently play on the front foot? Did we with Taylor, Grant & Aribo? Or with Taylor, Leko, Gallagher? Yes we did.
You play on the front foot when you have the competitive skill sets & ability to create the platform do so. To recruit/ retain such skill sets & ability depends entirely on the resources provided by the executive.
Win with lesser players? Who? Where? Wilder? Dyche? Howe? There are lesser players and there are lesser players. Our ultimate 2020 attacking threat consisted of 2 National League players, an unfit L2 forward and a Sunderland outcast. Front fucking foot?
Who determined a L1 squad denuded of 5 key players should survive a campaign adding just 3 Championship players who barely kicked a ball in anger. 2 arrived in the last hours of August likely via the Duchâtelet-Dahan link. Neither gained full fitness. The 3rd was Davis. Competitive resources? ROFL.
The post lockdown performance was governed, after a series of unprecedented injuries/withdrawals, by our ability to recruit in 2019/20 as defined in the last hour January loan signing of Davis.
The EFL allowed his transfer after the collapse of a Bostock loan. It failed because his temporary French club simply could not be bothered to sign the paperwork. It was pure Sunday League. It was so Charlton 2020. You want to sell that shit to a battered clubhouse fighting to survive?
Have you read the Shenanigans thread? And that’s the Managers fault? What the hell business do you work in? Does none of this register?
Nah, bollocks to that I knows my football I does.
Actually there are 15 players who did benefit from being given a platform by Bowyer. With a competitive budget at least 7 could have still been with us. We refused to pay them.
Has this thread run its course? Probably but on the basis of some of the most shallow posts I have read Charlton Life for me almost certainly has.
I do not know any poster but who welcomes the back door gossip of a clubhouse “contact”. The guy is stabbing people in the back. How does it serve the club? There is one place for a clubhouse issue. Whining outside the clubhouse is snide, weak, self serving and 100% outside the terms of contract.
Don’t you just love the footballing officionados of Charlton Life.
Ladies & Gentlemen recall the days of Slade, Robinson & Powell (in the Championship). This board screamed for changes of playing formation week after week after week. Scroll forward to 2021 and ...........
Coaching different systems? Nah, you are alright, everybody knows 4-4-2 (yup - we’ve used it in 65% games)
You guys Coaching in L2, National League, Feeder Leagues forget the badges - no bugger understands anyway - Strange when to get a good job coaching level 8 of the Pyramid I needed my Coaching qualifications 35 YEARS AGO!
AFKA I applaud your efforts to want to “park it” but this world of social media is not for reasoned debate it is for those locked into their own mindsets, no matter the breadth & scale of the issues at hand, to repetitively spout largely ill considered nonsense matched only by the puerility of their related wit.
Mostly it boils down to I don’t really get it but “it’s all just gotta be the Managers fault Innit”
Add context? Introduce a broader rationale? Or heaven forbid any facts to extend a post beyond 20 or 30 lines and you are ostentatious and tragically stretch the capacity of some poor souls to even scroll on their phones. Some things really pull at the heart strings don’t they?
No matter the data capacity such is the new posting ocriteria here. The masses will have their opinions. Please just don’t get in the way. So be it. As I withdraw I thought I would however just position some of the expectations.
Of 45 Championship teams relegated since 2004/5 I calculate 10 secured an immediate return.
1. The background of skeletal operations & challenged disposable budgets of 3yrs
2. Evidence of alleged executive malfeasance
3. 6 Changes of executive Duchatelet, Southall, Mihail, Elliot/ Farnell, Mihail, Sandgaard in 10 months
4. A trading embargo (& catastrophic Jan 2020 transfer window)
5. COVID 19
6. A truncated close season
7. No pre season
8. A delayed, contentious and uncertain takeover
9. An imposed Salary Cap (now rescinded)
the expectation of a relegated sides’ immediate return registers as less than 25%.
Have you ever written a business proposition?
At a time this business screams for stability from every fibre of its being, in the midst of a pandemic, the social media hordes demand ever more change. Now’t to do with sentimentality, everything to do with structuring a business with the resources and time to empower people to do their job.
Are we there yet boys & girls? No, we have a journey to travel.
This club has operated under the chaos of endless change for 14yrs. It has became our norm. IT IS NOT NORMAL. It offered false dawns in 2011/12 & 2018/19 whereon we witnessed any such success was by definition transitory. That is the reality.
Today the club remains a skeleton of what it was. What do you think the Duchâtelet protest years were about? It was about the fabric of the club being stripped out layer by layer. We have yo-yoed between the Championship and L1 for a decade. Drop the entitlement it speaks to who we are after 6yrs of Duchâtelet. There was always a price to pay.
I have huge respect for Mr Sandgaard who stepped in to rescue us from the hyenas who literally came to “feed off our carcass”. I understand the ambitions, the vision statements and respect he has recruited industry expertise to build a roadmap for the journey he wishes us to travel. He has my full support.
Of course match day experiences matter and there should always be an expectation of a competitive performance with the demand for a successful outcome. Yet even beyond the industry/ structural upheaval/ statistics on just what are we supposed to base a promotion expectation?
We are Charlton? We are Championship? A squad built largely in a matter of 3 weeks? Seriously? These things come back to bite. Who builds a promotion squad with 15 players out of contract at the end of the season?
It just improves the odds from 3 in 24 (12.5%) to 1 in 4 (25%). It is in itself worthless, has its own potential negativity, truncates the close season and delays planning. Hey, that’s a good idea - let’s plan on that!
Let me peel back a layer or two.
Unlike so many I respect any player holding a pro contract with the club, for their ability to contribute, but will focus on just two performances at Rochdale - Purrington and Oshilaja.
I refer you to 20 Oct 2020 where many called for Purrington to never wear the shirt again. Purrington is a most unspectacularly unspectacular but solid full back who has contributed to the club. He is a decent pro.
He is competing with a precocious young fullback on loan from Chelsea. Maatsen offers the potential of a significantly more balanced skill set involving a basic defence but with much greater creative threat. He is 18yrs old. He is playing his first full season in men’s football.
These are your left back combinations to secure a promotion winning campaign?
Matthews? Has in his career started at least 22 games at LB including games against Barcelona (twice) & Benfica. I think he still has more senior starts at left back than Maatsen.
I like Oshilaja. He came to us in the Championship on a Bosman after his initial talks with Luton did not progress. He is a competitive, industrious League 1 defender who has also served AFC Wimbledon & Gillingham.
In the building for over a season at his peak he failed to oust any of Lockyer, Sarr or Pearce. That’s his benchmark. Yet, of all the central defenders this season a couple of weeks ago his CB starts/ to goals conceded were the 2nd worst across all CBs selected.
Despite opportunities last season & this, last week was the first dominant performance he has given. Today?
The player with the worse stats? Pearce. A combative, industrious & very capable defender he has for years struggled to complete more than 25 starts a season and two games within a 7 day period. He complements his skills as a strong leader & game manager.
Why have they struggled? Relegation? No pre season? Injury? Another new squad fatigue? Summer of turmoil facing Administration? Last Contract year? Who knows but both have been well off the pace.
To complement this “established” duo we recruited on loan the emerging talents of Famewo, a young defender with 12 starts in the Scottish Premier and the same number in L2 before
ultimately acquiring the talents of Inniss, a capable defender but who had struggled to make 44 senior starts anywhere across 6 seasons. I like him. I think he still offers potential.
Oh you want Barker? You want to tell Bowyer about a 17yr old, weeks into his first pro contract, making their way in the pro game. Seen the lad in the U23s have we? What’s more important? The lads’ career or just maybe a few extra points.
This ladies & gentlemen is your promotion campaign winning central defence/ spine/ bedrock/ core platform? Is it, bollocks.
Bielik, Bauer, Sarr, Pearce? Or Morrison, Taylor and Cort? What was your proposition for promotion again?
Alternatives? With respect perhaps we might reflect Inniss was circa the 43rd new CB signing made in League 1 in the Summer transfer window, i.e. 40+ options plus Lockyer & Sarr had already gone. That is the reality.
Do I agree with many of the selections/ rotations. No, but I get it. I recognise the operational challenges being faced. First relegation? Completely new squad? A few punts? People are entitled to learn from their experiences. A year ago this site demanded he had an extended contract. The fickleness of the internet supporter is truly, truly pathetic.
Park it, AFKA? Sorry I am very clearly, for now, no longer in the right place.
Some valid points there were massively undercut and weakened by the quite belittling comments towards others.
You appear to be making the point that as a pairing Inniss and Famewo were unlikely to be a success all season, and that even if fit, we would have struggled. That is a fair point. Also that Oshilaja and Pearce are not top quality replacements. Also a fair point.
However: they are what Bowyer has by his own word and deed expressed satisfaction with. By using a right back and a centre midfielder as makeshifts, by an inability or refusal to correct this situation in January. And he has said himself that he did not see any better alternatives.
However, the ownership/financial argument for this does not hold up. We signed Matt Smith II (a central midfielder on loan, who has not yet played.) We spent a fee on Jaiyesimi. Clearly we COULD have at least considered signing a defensive cover, even short term, even on loan. That we did not is on Bowyer.
Ranieri and Wenger may have left their clubs in positions even worse when they took over, but they delivered silverware, let's not forget Bowyer didn't win the title and has the advantage of having three shots at promotion. Admittedly that's why it's difficult to compare the two (you were the one who started the Klopp comparison, not me). A manager who joins a Premier League club in 4th, finishes 4th for five years in a row isn't successful, but they would be if they won FA/League cups in that time. Even so, like I say you've put words in my mouth as I never said Bowyer has been unsuccessful. If we finish 11th this season and Bowyer is sacked, has his reign been a success? I'd say he delivered one of the best days of my life, he was a passionate manager who I loved having but overall, no it wouldn't have been a success, we would have gone full circle with him as manager, even with excuses and difficult circumstances.
You can't undo a trophy win. Ramsay was sacked as manager but of course he was a success because we won the World Cup. Klopp won the Champions League. You can't be relegated from the World Cup or Champions League. Ignoring who or what was to blame, our promotion was fairly meaningless because we got relegated straight back down.
I actually agree with the majority of what you have written and I'm not calling for him to sacked. There is a lot of impatience, I include myself in that but despite paying £10 for another shower of shit, I'm happy to give him some more time.
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
Dowie
Reed
Pardew
Parkinson
Powell
Riga
Peters
Fraeye
Luzon
Riga again
Slade
Robinson
Don't you think it's a bit late for that? I think Bowyer is now the longest serving manager since Curbs left? How many of those managers were we wrong to "let go"?
Blind loyalty is not a valid reason to keep a manager.
If you think Bowyer is the right person to rebuild the squad, and be trusted with spending Thomas's money, that's a valid point of view. But keeping the wrong manager out of loyalty, or on the grounds of stability, or to take some moral high ground isn't. Is it?