Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
wow would be surprised about that. It's crazy that a little bad run can cost you your job in football these days. Your earlier point about "being one of those clubs" was spot on, and I 100% agree. I really don't want to become one of those clubs but at the same time we can't carry on like we have been for too much longer.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
"Has he been successful though?"
Well we weren't going to make the play-offs in 17/18 with Karl Robinson in charge, so I'd say he was a success at the end of that season.
The following season we got promoted. We started that season unable to fill the substitutes bench. We spent £0 in transfer fees. So I think it's fair to say that he was successful that season.
I take your point about him leaving us in a very similar position to the one he took over in. Presumably you'd also say that Claudio Ranieri wasn't a success at Leicester, because he left Leicester in the relegation zone, so the Premier League title he won the year before is a bit irrelevant. Maybe Jurgen Klopp (sorry for the repeated reference to him) will leave Liverpool at the end of the season after finishing outside the Champions League places, in which case - by your logic - he isn't a success either, despite delivering the Premier League title and the Champions League. Mauricio Pochettino - took over a side that had just finished 6th, left them in 14th, another failure of a manager. Arsene Wenger also not successful (based on your criteria), and Alf Ramsey got sacked after failing to qualify for World Cup 1974, so he was an unsuccessful England manager.
Of course, I recognise that all of these comparisons are ridiculous - none of the aforementioned had to work within the ridiculous constraints applied by Roland, or the turmoil that followed that, or anything even remotely comparable to that.
I find it really weird that people on here attribute blame to Bowyer for our relegation last season. It's not much different to making Paul Jones the scapegoat for Wigan's relegation. It's as if the transfer window last January (when our owners forgot to tell us that we were under a transfer embargo) isn't relevant. And all the games that we dominated after lockdown, when we had no Taylor and Macauley Bonne had chance after chance but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, that isn't relevant either. And of course, we had a lower budget than anyone else in the Championship, so at a disadvantage before the season even started, but that doesn't matter either.
It's only a few months ago that we were all united in fear that we might not have a club to support for much longer. I was proud of our support back then, and for the years before that when we were fighting against Roland. But now that the club's secure, most seem to have forgotten how grateful we were to have Bowyer and Jacko while everything else was going to shit in the background. Now we're no different from Chelsea, Palace, Newcastle, Spurs and the rest - unable to see the bigger picture and ready to change our managers as often as we change our socks, regardless of what's gone before.
It's not been very good recently, I can see that. He's made poor selection choices at times, and defensively we've been awful (since we lost our two best centre-backs). We were lousy against Portsmouth and Accrington. But we were good against Rochdale and MK Dons. If he has "lost it", then it's a bit weird that he keeps finding it again. I thought "losing it" was a permanent state. We were potent in attack today, and suicidal in defence, although not helped by a really soft sending off.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
I think we all know the shortcomings, but we do need stability. We will never agree on what he could have done or should have done, but all agree it could have been better. If our current manager was Robinson my view would be no different. We are building a squad and as an absolute minimum a manager should be given at least one close season to build. We will probably have a total clear out again. In my view we have to stop this cycle.
I just really believe we need to stick together, stay together, and build together. It took years to bring us down to near extinction. Year by year, bit by bit.
It will take a chunk of time to rebuild. A five year plan seems sensible and reasonable, and I am not saying that needs to be, or should be, under Bowyer.
We re started as a Club just five months ago. Five months! I think we should all pause and think about that. Several have said it would be a lot different if us fans were at games. I agree. I think a visit to the Valley lifts the opposition and our absence doesn’t equalise that. If we were there it would tip it all in our favour and at least we would drown out the Truffle Hunter.
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
wow would be surprised about that. It's crazy that a little bad run can cost you your job in football these days. Your earlier point about "being one of those clubs" was spot on, and I 100% agree. I really don't want to become one of those clubs but at the same time we can't carry on like we have been for too much longer.
The Jurgen rumours are based on his mother dying and other personal stuff. He may have quit but not for "football" reasons.
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
wow would be surprised about that. It's crazy that a little bad run can cost you your job in football these days. Your earlier point about "being one of those clubs" was spot on, and I 100% agree. I really don't want to become one of those clubs but at the same time we can't carry on like we have been for too much longer.
The Jurgen rumours are based on his mother dying and other personal stuff. He may have quit but not for "football" reasons.
Would he quit purely for that though? If Liverpool were 10 points clear at the top I don't think he would. I didn't know about his mother until just now though and no doubt it's affecting him but he's been different for quite a while IMO.
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
wow would be surprised about that. It's crazy that a little bad run can cost you your job in football these days. Your earlier point about "being one of those clubs" was spot on, and I 100% agree. I really don't want to become one of those clubs but at the same time we can't carry on like we have been for too much longer.
The Jurgen rumours are based on his mother dying and other personal stuff. He may have quit but not for "football" reasons.
Would he quit purely for that though? If Liverpool were 10 points clear at the top I don't think he would. I didn't know about his mother until just now though and no doubt it's affecting him but he's been different for quite a while IMO.
Family first. Global pandemic, the rest of his family are in Germany he can't even go to the funeral. Exactly the same thing happened to Pep last year.
If football was more "normal" these people would have some proper time off, like most of us would expect in similar situations.
Bowyer probably have a week or two off once the transfer window shut in October, after the six or so months he went through.
Unfortunately it doesn't, wrongly, work like that.
Incidentally, following my continual references to Jurgen Klopp this evening, apparently he has gone from 50/1 this morning to be the next manager to leave his job, to 5/6 tonight, amidst rumours that he's quit.
Lot's of scousers been giving him stick on social media, although obviously plenty defending him as well.
Presume there's a "Has Jurgen Lost it?" thread on Bin-dipperLife.com.
Maybe not such a crazy comparison after all.
I hope the Scousers are having those conversations. Speculating about your managers future after a poor run is part of football, always will be and if it’s still going on then it’s a sign that the world hasn’t completely collapsed. Long may it continue, everyone involved knows the score. Remember, regardless of whether you think Bowyer should stay or go, we are all Charlton fans and everything else is just details.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
He did get the opportunity to make some of that right though. The decision to sign another CM and not a CB was ridiculous. My biggest issue with Bowyer has always been his love of a CM. It's almost an obsession because I genuinely do not believe it makes sense at times. The salary cap was difficult, but it brings extra scrutiny/pressure because you can't afford to get much wrong. For me, he got that one wrong
On the match thread I posted the players we had at the start of the season.
To me that midfield looks reasonably ok, certainly not an area which was the main priority for strengthening, yet 2 of the first 3 signings Gilbey and Levitt were midfielders.
Because last season we had a few injuries in midfield in the first half, Bowyer had gone massively overboard with midfielders since then. The likes of Smith (the other one) and Davis last January typified this.
Bowyers demise can best be highlighted by the fact that only a few months ago we were worried he might be lured elsewhere. Me included. His star has fallen and I doubt there’s a chairman anywhere that has his name in their diary. We’re at this point absolutely dreadful and have been for months.
Karanka at Birmingham must be under threat
That was a job Bowyer was strongly linked with last summer, I'd be very surprised if they came back for him now
“Aiming for a top 6 finish” is not a promotion target.It is a default promotion punt.
It just improves the odds from 3 in 24 (12.5%) to 1 in 4 (25%). It is in itself worthless, has its own potential negativity, truncates the close season and delays planning. Hey, that’s a good idea - let’s plan on that!
3 of the top 6 get promoted = 50% or a 4x improvement on 12.5% odds I believe.
“Aiming for a top 6 finish” is not a promotion target.It is a default promotion punt.
It just improves the odds from 3 in 24 (12.5%) to 1 in 4 (25%). It is in itself worthless, has its own potential negativity, truncates the close season and delays planning. Hey, that’s a good idea - let’s plan on that!
3 of the top 6 get promoted = 50% or a 4x improvement on odds I believe.
I'm not sure about your maths, but I thank you most sincerely for not quoting the whole post, unlike some people...
I still back him but the ‘worldies’/injured defenders/salary cap’ schtick is starting to wear very thin.
The plain facts are since beating Portsmouth in October we’ve looked wildly inconsistent and conceded a hatful of goals against the likes of Gillingham, Swindon and Rochdale.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
He did get the opportunity to make some of that right though. The decision to sign another CM and not a CB was ridiculous. My biggest issue with Bowyer has always been his love of a CM. It's almost an obsession because I genuinely do not believe it makes sense at times. The salary cap was difficult, but it brings extra scrutiny/pressure because you can't afford to get much wrong. For me, he got that one wrong
On the match thread I posted the players we had at the start of the season.
Amos, Purrington, Oshilaja, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Williams, Lapslie, Oztumer, Doughty, Aneke, Bonne, Davison plus U23s and Barker.
To me that midfield looks reasonably ok, certainly not an area which was the main priority for strengthening, yet 2 of the first 3 signings Gilbey and Levitt were midfielders.
Because last season we had a few injuries in midfield in the first half, Bowyer had gone massively overboard with midfielders since then. The likes of Smith (the other one) and Davis last January typified this.
Absolutely, we're currently starting JFC, Shinnie and Pratley. You then have direct replacements for each of those with Gilbey, Morgan and Watson (plus Shinnie is playing RM anyway). How he looked at that midfield and thought we needed Smith I have no idea.
My major criticism of Bowyer has been that he has no idea what his best team or formation is. It's nice to have options and variety but it's something he needs to sort out.
I know he gets bombarded with messages on Twitter, but I'd be interested to know if TS reads this forum. I'm guessing not, but it would give him an insight into the fickle support of football fans generally and at Charlton in particular
Whilst I accept that is generally true, I don't think fans that are calling time on Bowyer are being fickle in this instance. We've been poor for a sustained period now & the season is slipping away
Are you for real? This period of time you are talking about is less than half of a season?
Portsmouth have had several seasons in this division now and have obviously not made it on each occasion, does that mean it’s time for Jackett to go? They are now looking strong contenders again this season...they have allowed him to build! Bowyer has not been given that opportunity, and typically the impatient charlton fan base which we are....call him out! I make a lot of you wrong!
I know he gets bombarded with messages on Twitter, but I'd be interested to know if TS reads this forum. I'm guessing not, but it would give him an insight into the fickle support of football fans generally and at Charlton in particular
Whilst I accept that is generally true, I don't think fans that are calling time on Bowyer are being fickle in this instance. We've been poor for a sustained period now & the season is slipping away
Are you for real? This period of time you are talking about is less than half of a season?
Portsmouth have had several seasons in this division now and have obviously not made it on each occasion, does that mean it’s time for Jackett to go? They are now looking strong contenders again this season...they have allowed him to build! Bowyer has not been given that opportunity, and typically the impatient charlton fan base which we are....call him out! I make a lot of you wrong!
I’ve asked the question before on this thread but didn’t get any real response.
This is aimed directly at those stating that we need stability, we should repay loyalty, we can only win with Inniss/Famewo etc...
Would you be so willing to deflect the blame from the current manager if it were Robinson, Luzon, Slade etc? Be honest.
Wow, Robinson, Slade and Luzon?! Their golden periods of managing Charlton can be measured in minutes and hours rather than months and years. All three got far more financial backing than Bowyer as well.
What an extraordinary comparison. In answer to your question, I'd be just as willing to deflect blame from those three if they'd had two and a half years of over- achievement before hitting a bad spell. But they didn't. The end.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
"Has he been successful though?"
Well we weren't going to make the play-offs in 17/18 with Karl Robinson in charge, so I'd say he was a success at the end of that season.
The following season we got promoted. We started that season unable to fill the substitutes bench. We spent £0 in transfer fees. So I think it's fair to say that he was successful that season.
I take your point about him leaving us in a very similar position to the one he took over in. Presumably you'd also say that Claudio Ranieri wasn't a success at Leicester, because he left Leicester in the relegation zone, so the Premier League title he won the year before is a bit irrelevant. Maybe Jurgen Klopp (sorry for the repeated reference to him) will leave Liverpool at the end of the season after finishing outside the Champions League places, in which case - by your logic - he isn't a success either, despite delivering the Premier League title and the Champions League. Mauricio Pochettino - took over a side that had just finished 6th, left them in 14th, another failure of a manager. Arsene Wenger also not successful (based on your criteria), and Alf Ramsey got sacked after failing to qualify for World Cup 1974, so he was an unsuccessful England manager.
Of course, I recognise that all of these comparisons are ridiculous - none of the aforementioned had to work within the ridiculous constraints applied by Roland, or the turmoil that followed that, or anything even remotely comparable to that.
I find it really weird that people on here attribute blame to Bowyer for our relegation last season. It's not much different to making Paul Jones the scapegoat for Wigan's relegation. It's as if the transfer window last January (when our owners forgot to tell us that we were under a transfer embargo) isn't relevant. And all the games that we dominated after lockdown, when we had no Taylor and Macauley Bonne had chance after chance but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, that isn't relevant either. And of course, we had a lower budget than anyone else in the Championship, so at a disadvantage before the season even started, but that doesn't matter either.
It's only a few months ago that we were all united in fear that we might not have a club to support for much longer. I was proud of our support back then, and for the years before that when we were fighting against Roland. But now that the club's secure, most seem to have forgotten how grateful we were to have Bowyer and Jacko while everything else was going to shit in the background. Now we're no different from Chelsea, Palace, Newcastle, Spurs and the rest - unable to see the bigger picture and ready to change our managers as often as we change our socks, regardless of what's gone before.
It's not been very good recently, I can see that. He's made poor selection choices at times, and defensively we've been awful (since we lost our two best centre-backs). We were lousy against Portsmouth and Accrington. But we were good against Rochdale and MK Dons. If he has "lost it", then it's a bit weird that he keeps finding it again. I thought "losing it" was a permanent state. We were potent in attack today, and suicidal in defence, although not helped by a really soft sending off.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
Poetic.
As disappointing as today was I’m just surprised this game made people turn again.
He essentially did everything the Bowyer out lot wanted by playing the same team. When do they admit to being wrong? Was that poor team selection? The same lot calling for DJ to start we’re calling for his head at full time.
Boywer a comments after the game are a bit off, but I think people on here lost it way before Boywer ever will
His main error at the moment is playing Pearce. I would also be bolder and leave Pratley out of games like this at home. He’s valuable in the tough away games but I’d be playing someone a little more youthful and progressive.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
He did get the opportunity to make some of that right though. The decision to sign another CM and not a CB was ridiculous. My biggest issue with Bowyer has always been his love of a CM. It's almost an obsession because I genuinely do not believe it makes sense at times. The salary cap was difficult, but it brings extra scrutiny/pressure because you can't afford to get much wrong. For me, he got that one wrong
On the match thread I posted the players we had at the start of the season.
Amos, Purrington, Oshilaja, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Williams, Lapslie, Oztumer, Doughty, Aneke, Bonne, Davison plus U23s and Barker.
To me that midfield looks reasonably ok, certainly not an area which was the main priority for strengthening, yet 2 of the first 3 signings Gilbey and Levitt were midfielders.
Because last season we had a few injuries in midfield in the first half, Bowyer had gone massively overboard with midfielders since then. The likes of Smith (the other one) and Davis last January typified this.
Absolutely, we're currently starting JFC, Shinnie and Pratley. You then have direct replacements for each of those with Gilbey, Morgan and Watson (plus Shinnie is playing RM anyway). How he looked at that midfield and thought we needed Smith I have no idea.
My major criticism of Bowyer has been that he has no idea what his best team or formation is. It's nice to have options and variety but it's something he needs to sort out.
He has, it’s clearly 4-4-2 and he’s stuck with it for most of the recent games.
Where I see an is our defending as a team. We got back in numbers yesterday which is better than we were doing in games like Rochdale at home, but we need a few of those players to better close down players outside the box.
Another defeat for Liverpool today. 2 wins from the last 7 games, not won at home since mid-December.
Van Dijk's injured, blah, blah, blah, Gomez is injured, blah, blah, blah. As if that's a reasonable excuse! Klopp's clearly lost it, bloke hasn't got a clue. Can't believe they've not sacked him yet and brought in Paul Jones or Danny Cowley.
Good comparison if it wasn't for Liverpools succes over the last few years
Yeah I know, ridiculous comparison by me. Klopp's barely spent a penny, whereas Bowyer's had his pick of lower league free transfers and inexperienced loanees. I bet Klopp would have jumped at the chance to sign Macaulay Bonne for £100k and Deli Oshilaja on a free. And Bowyer had the advantage of Lyle Taylor refusing to play, whilst poor old Jurgen had to put up with Mo Salah expecting to start every week.
Klopp's had barely any support from Liverpool's billionaire owners whereas good old Roland couldn't get his wallet out quick enough. Really you have to say it's an absolute disgrace that Bowyer wasn't sacked straight after the play off final.
Oh but hang on, he was sacked straight after the play-off final, and all the stupid Charlton fans complained about it because they ridiculously thought he'd worked a miracle in getting us promoted, so Roland reinstated him, so that we had to put up with him nearly keeping us up with the lowest budget in the Championship and absolute meltdown going on behind the scenes with the ownership.
Yep, you're right. You're definitely right.
OK its exactly the same situation
No, it clearly isn't exactly the same situation, so a bit odd of you to cite Klopp's success over the last few years, implying that Bowyer hasn't had any success, when he quite obviously had given the circumstances he was working under.
Has it been successful though? Yes we went up but came straight back down. He could easily leave us in a very similar position to the one he took over in.
Admittedly the circumstances have mostly been horrendous, so progress was a long shot. Unfortunately for him it’s not anymore so he’s open to a lot more criticism.
Bowyer might well turn out not to be the man, but I think he's earned the right to at least pick his first choice team a couple of times before we discard him. What's more, I think we owe him that, for staying last summer when there were offers from elsewhere and we were changing owners every other week, and for staying the year before despite being rewarded for promotion by getting the sack.
Not expecting to convince anyone to change their mind, but I can't get over how short some of your memories are, and how keen you are for us to become "that sort of club".
This comment keeps coming up. None of us want Charlton to become "that sort of club" no matter how many times it gets thrown around as a pretty weak ad hominem. Nor are memories short- most of us aren't denying Bowyer got us promoted or that it wasn't a great moment. But there comes a point that you have to ask, what is the point that he has to go? At what point has Bowyer crossed the line?
If we fail to get top six, is that it? It was the stated aim for the first half of this season but suddenly now we're overachieving whilst being outside of it.
I will always love Bowyer for being a part of the Wembley moments, and it felt all the better having someone 'proper Charlton' at the helm, but how long can that season be held up as a get out of jail free card?
I think he should get until the end of the season to try and get playoffs, for what its worth, but I wouldn't go as far as to give him until December or even longer as some have suggested if he misses the top six target.
Well we're not too far apart then. Whilst I personally would give him until December, I recognise that managers don't normally get that amount of time these days, and if we play out the remainder of the season in the same fashion as the last two months then I don't really expect him to stay, and you won't find me on here in May protesting about his dismissal if that's how it plays out.
But this thread started on 8 January - the transfer window had barely opened and he'd spent the season working with a squad that had been assembled at the last minute and already there were people saying he had to go - and it's snowballed ever since. There's loads of people on here calling for his head and saying that he needs to go now, regardless of what's gone before. I find that attitude hard to stomach, and it does make us "that kind of club".
He did get the opportunity to make some of that right though. The decision to sign another CM and not a CB was ridiculous. My biggest issue with Bowyer has always been his love of a CM. It's almost an obsession because I genuinely do not believe it makes sense at times. The salary cap was difficult, but it brings extra scrutiny/pressure because you can't afford to get much wrong. For me, he got that one wrong
On the match thread I posted the players we had at the start of the season.
Amos, Purrington, Oshilaja, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Williams, Lapslie, Oztumer, Doughty, Aneke, Bonne, Davison plus U23s and Barker.
To me that midfield looks reasonably ok, certainly not an area which was the main priority for strengthening, yet 2 of the first 3 signings Gilbey and Levitt were midfielders.
Because last season we had a few injuries in midfield in the first half, Bowyer had gone massively overboard with midfielders since then. The likes of Smith (the other one) and Davis last January typified this.
Absolutely, we're currently starting JFC, Shinnie and Pratley. You then have direct replacements for each of those with Gilbey, Morgan and Watson (plus Shinnie is playing RM anyway). How he looked at that midfield and thought we needed Smith I have no idea.
My major criticism of Bowyer has been that he has no idea what his best team or formation is. It's nice to have options and variety but it's something he needs to sort out.
He has, it’s clearly 4-4-2 and he’s stuck with it for most of the recent games.
Where I see an is our defending as a team. We got back in numbers yesterday which is better than we were doing in games like Rochdale at home, but we need a few of those players to better close down players outside the box.
This has always been a feature of Bowyer teams hasn't it? We were talking about this last year because it's so noticeable that we don't close people down around the area. I remember someone saying that it's a tactical choice to not close them down, since statistically speaking, it's better to encourage long-range efforts.
Comments
Several have said it would be a lot different if us fans were at games. I agree. I think a visit to the Valley lifts the opposition and our absence doesn’t equalise that. If we were there it would tip it all in our favour and at least we would drown out the Truffle Hunter.
I'm pretty sure Sandgaard has tasked Bowyer with making the playoffs at least.
The objective is still achievable. If he doesn't meet it he's gone.
TS sounds like a man of his word. So it's pretty simple.
If football was more "normal" these people would have some proper time off, like most of us would expect in similar situations.
Bowyer probably have a week or two off once the transfer window shut in October, after the six or so months he went through.
Unfortunately it doesn't, wrongly, work like that.
count me out , it was beyond my capabilities.
To me that midfield looks reasonably ok, certainly not an area which was the main priority for strengthening, yet 2 of the first 3 signings Gilbey and Levitt were midfielders.
Because last season we had a few injuries in midfield in the first half, Bowyer had gone massively overboard with midfielders since then. The likes of Smith (the other one) and Davis last January typified this.
That was a job Bowyer was strongly linked with last summer, I'd be very surprised if they came back for him now
Just wait for a further ten posts, then pick up the thread from the subsequent comments.
Anyway ... more goalpost movement from Bowyer after today's embarrassment.
Dust off the fishing rods, Lee. It'll soon be Summer.
Hope Klopp gets the chop. We could do worse.
My major criticism of Bowyer has been that he has no idea what his best team or formation is. It's nice to have options and variety but it's something he needs to sort out.
Robson ... famously "very good with his words" according to Bowyer ... relied on intelligence.
Over to you, Lee. You need to do betterer.
Would you be so willing to deflect the blame from the current manager if it were Robinson, Luzon, Slade etc? Be honest.
What an extraordinary comparison. In answer to your question, I'd be just as willing to deflect blame from those three if they'd had two and a half years of over- achievement before hitting a bad spell. But they didn't. The end.
As disappointing as today was I’m just surprised this game made people turn again.
He essentially did everything the Bowyer out lot wanted by playing the same team. When do they admit to being wrong? Was that poor team selection? The same lot calling for DJ to start we’re calling for his head at full time.
Boywer a comments after the game are a bit off, but I think people on here lost it way before Boywer ever will
Where I see an is our defending as a team. We got back in numbers yesterday which is better than we were doing in games like Rochdale at home, but we need a few of those players to better close down players outside the box.
I would suspect if it was a new manager most people would suggest 3 transfer windows is amount of fair time to rebuild a squad?
So no questions asked for another 2 years?