He will be up there in interceptions made as well I am sure. An absolute beast, and his reading of the game is exceptional.
If he was more mobile when on the ball he would easily be a top half Championship player.
You never know. Pratley played Premier League football and is more technically limited than Dobson. Although football has moved on a bit since then, feel like Dobbo could do a good job in the right system.
He will be up there in interceptions made as well I am sure. An absolute beast, and his reading of the game is exceptional.
If he was more mobile when on the ball he would easily be a top half Championship player.
You never know. Pratley played Premier League football and is more technically limited than Dobson. Although football has moved on a bit sense then, feel like Dobbo could do a good job in the right system.
I don’t watch enough football to be the best judge to be honest, but when I look at us play the top teams in this division, it feels like the players who play in Dobson’s positions are perhaps a little more dynamic with their ability to carry the ball.
Obviously this could be easier for them to do not just because of skill levels, but factors such as their team being dominate on the whole creating more space etc.
As you say maybe in the right system with the right players who knows where his ceiling is. If you want someone to be able to break up play in the middle of the park, there’s not really been anyone really as good as Dobson down at our level at that over the last couple of season.
I say this not as a criticism of Dobson's commitment or abilities, which are unmatched at this level. But is a deep-lying defensive midfielder even...optimal right now? Do other teams employ it and prosper? Is Dobson a brilliant throwback to the 00's or even 10's? Is his lack of breaking forward and dynamic attacking play a tactical weakness? A lot of questions that I feel need answering.
I'll also add that in Inniss' absence tonight I actually hope we try Dobson as a ballplaying CB, especially against MK Dons. I think it needs to be explored.
And I'll thirdly add that the old-fashioned sweeper position, made irrelevant by goalkeeping advances among other things, is the one which absolutely fits Dobson's skillset the most. He'd have been legendary at it
I think it depends on the system. I wouldn't build a team around him personally.
I said this to a mate last season and got lots of abuse but I'll say it again - Dobbo is great at what he does but its a limited player. If he is anywhere near the POTY stakes next season we will be mid-table at best. Every squad needs someone like him but we need the option of someone who can play that position but add more with passing and movement if we want to get promoted.
Not saying there isnt a place for him - look at the games that Pratley or Bielik played in CDM in the playoff winning year - but we need that Josh Cullen player to play that role in certain games and against certain teams. When I looked back at it i was amazed how many games we played with Cullen at the base of the diamond.
Bielik was a MUCH more progressive threat than Dobson, is the thing. He had a fantastic engine and attacking instincts. Cullen is less forward-thrusting but still more mobile and better in tight areas. Semedo makes a better comparison imo
Would be fine if you had two dynamic central midfielders around him to transition the ball from defense to attack.
He's a midfield destroyer, which is good to have when you have better players around him. Without the quality he just looks like a busy, limited player.
I say this not as a criticism of Dobson's commitment or abilities, which are unmatched at this level. But is a deep-lying defensive midfielder even...optimal right now? Do other teams employ it and prosper? Is Dobson a brilliant throwback to the 00's or even 10's? Is his lack of breaking forward and dynamic attacking play a tactical weakness? A lot of questions that I feel need answering.
It's a fair question. However maybe framing it purely as dependent on Dobson is the issue here. Are the limitations because of him and the deep lying role or because there are weaknesses in the squad in general, for example.
Dobson is excellent as the deep lying player, Fraser shows signs of being a decent enough playmaker further forward but ideally they'd both be complemented by a proper ball carrying box to box type who can get the ball from Dobson, drive forwards and either lay off to Fraser to pick the killer pass or maybe try some shooting at range.
Gilbey, Morgan, McGrandles and Kilkenny have all been tried out and found wanting in either quality or consistency.
Would be fine if you had two dynamic central midfielders around him to transition the ball from defense to attack.
He's a midfield destroyer, which is good to have when you have better players around him. Without the quality he just looks like a busy, limited player.
This is the counter I expected.
I'm still unconvinced that this is how football is played now at higher and higher-aspirant levels. I think all midfield players are expected to be mobile. I also think Ben Garner's attempt to drop him in the first game was cognisant of this, except a half-fit McGrandles was no use to anyone.
I will add that Dobson is not just a destroyer - he can pass (albeit shakily of late) and he has touch. But it is his mobility and forward impact which is under scrutiny, along with how this affects team shape.
I say this not as a criticism of Dobson's commitment or abilities, which are unmatched at this level. But is a deep-lying defensive midfielder even...optimal right now? Do other teams employ it and prosper? Is Dobson a brilliant throwback to the 00's or even 10's? Is his lack of breaking forward and dynamic attacking play a tactical weakness? A lot of questions that I feel need answering.
It's a fair question. However maybe framing it purely as dependent on Dobson is the issue here. Are the limitations because of him and the deep lying role or because there are weaknesses in the squad in general, for example.
Dobson is excellent as the deep lying player, Fraser shows signs of being a decent enough playmaker further forward but ideally they'd both be complemented by a proper ball carrying box to box type who can get the ball from Dobson, drive forwards and either lay off to Fraser to pick the killer pass or maybe try some shooting at range.
Gilbey, Morgan, McGrandles and Kilkenny have all been tried out and found wanting in either quality or consistency.
The common factor for ALL of Dobson's midfield partners is Dobson, though. Could it be that too much running and responsibility for team shape was heaped onto all of those players? I'm not saying I fully believe this (and Gilbey is a hider, screw him), but it can't be ignored.
Whisper it but there's a reason that neither Adkins or Garner wanted Dobson in the midfield. Most teams don't play with a destroyer anymore in the middle. So many midfielders are trained now to play both ways that you often have at least two, sometimes all three in the middle who can put themselves about a bit and win the ball as well as maintain possession and create. Cullen is a good example of that type. It's worth saying that each time Dobson has proven the managers that didn't rate him wrong because he's so good at the tackling and ball-winning side and he's better than the other dross we have, but I do often look at the tackling stats for Dobson and find it more worrying than pleasing. We're aiming for the top 6, why is he needing to win so many tackles? Why didn't he work out at Sunderland but was good for Wimbledon and why did managers wanting possession football want other players over him? Garner wanted to put McGrandles there as a midfielder who could create while also getting involved in the nasty stuff. I'm happy to have Dobson but I do think we'd be better off having a couple of midfielders that can play and kick people instead of our current system of having him do all the clean up while we lose control of the middle.
Look at the other players on that list of most tackles won in the EFL. Moxon (Carlisle, 5th L2), Gibson (Morecambe, 22nd L1), Vela (Fleetwood, 14th L1), McClean (Wigan, 24th Champ. Also, really?!), El Mizouni (Orient, 1st L2). It's not esteemed company is it? It seems to work at L2 level but winning lots and lots of tackles in L1 seems to be the job of teams under the cosh all the time. And James McClean apparently. I do like Dobson and I'm happy to have him but I feel like he rescues us from our failings more than he makes us better overall
I've been having disquieting thoughts. Can our tactical experts please assemble.
It's often said on here that a promotion-winning team could be built around Dobson.
Could it really?
Last season's Dobbo, probably. This season's probably not.
I actually think he has improved this season. Certainly in terms of his ability to drop the shoulder in a tight space and with his forward passing.
That being said, and it’s something I’ve been mentioning for a while - I look at the skill set of the players in the top 6 who play in his role or similar, and although they may lack his tackling and interception stats, their mobility and ability to drive forwards with or without the ball really sets them aside.
I am with Leuth now in as much as I was thinking maybe if we went 4-2-3-1 and had someone alongside Dobson then he could flourish a little more. But then after seeing Morsy and Luongo (perhaps a little too good for this league) I still think he would be too one paced.
Id never count him out though. He’s one of those players who seems to always come back stronger and better.
I've been having disquieting thoughts. Can our tactical experts please assemble.
It's often said on here that a promotion-winning team could be built around Dobson.
Could it really?
Last season's Dobbo, probably. This season's probably not.
I actually think he has improved this season. Certainly in terms of his ability to drop the shoulder in a tight space and with his forward passing.
That being said, and it’s something I’ve been mentioning for a while - I look at the skill set of the players in the top 6 who play in his role or similar, and although they may lack his tackling and interception stats, their mobility and ability to drive forwards with or without the ball really sets them aside.
I am with Leuth now in as much as I was thinking maybe if we went 4-2-3-1 and had someone alongside Dobson then he could flourish a little more. But then after seeing Morsy and Luongo (perhaps a little too good for this league) I still think he would be too one paced.
Id never count him out though. He’s one of those players who seems to always come back stronger and better.
Well, arguably Morgan has tried dropping right in there, and it's worked to a degree. But then Fraser has been the sacrifice - he just isn't a number 10, doesn't quite have the game for it. You're compromising something no matter how you do it. Morgan, Henry, Kilkenny in a double-pivot with Dobson could only work with a brilliant Number 10 in the team. And we don't have anything like that. JRS probably isn't far off, but it isn't his game either. Payne would be the one, but it just doesn't happen. And even with the double-pivot, you need Dobson to be able to be the one who provides attacking shape sometimes.
Whisper it but there's a reason that neither Adkins or Garner wanted Dobson in the midfield. Most teams don't play with a destroyer anymore in the middle.
I agree and most teams don't play with a 'poacher' up front either. So we've got a destroyer in the middle and a poacher up top. Prime 90s setup competing in the modern era.
Comments
If he was more mobile when on the ball he would easily be a top half Championship player.
Obviously this could be easier for them to do not just because of skill levels, but factors such as their team being dominate on the whole creating more space etc.
As you say maybe in the right system with the right players who knows where his ceiling is. If you want someone to be able to break up play in the middle of the park, there’s not really been anyone really as good as Dobson down at our level at that over the last couple of season.
It's often said on here that a promotion-winning team could be built around Dobson.
Could it really?
I said this to a mate last season and got lots of abuse but I'll say it again - Dobbo is great at what he does but its a limited player. If he is anywhere near the POTY stakes next season we will be mid-table at best. Every squad needs someone like him but we need the option of someone who can play that position but add more with passing and movement if we want to get promoted.
Not saying there isnt a place for him - look at the games that Pratley or Bielik played in CDM in the playoff winning year - but we need that Josh Cullen player to play that role in certain games and against certain teams. When I looked back at it i was amazed how many games we played with Cullen at the base of the diamond.
He's a midfield destroyer, which is good to have when you have better players around him. Without the quality he just looks like a busy, limited player.
Dobson is excellent as the deep lying player, Fraser shows signs of being a decent enough playmaker further forward but ideally they'd both be complemented by a proper ball carrying box to box type who can get the ball from Dobson, drive forwards and either lay off to Fraser to pick the killer pass or maybe try some shooting at range.
Gilbey, Morgan, McGrandles and Kilkenny have all been tried out and found wanting in either quality or consistency.
I'm still unconvinced that this is how football is played now at higher and higher-aspirant levels. I think all midfield players are expected to be mobile. I also think Ben Garner's attempt to drop him in the first game was cognisant of this, except a half-fit McGrandles was no use to anyone.
I will add that Dobson is not just a destroyer - he can pass (albeit shakily of late) and he has touch. But it is his mobility and forward impact which is under scrutiny, along with how this affects team shape.
That being said, and it’s something I’ve been mentioning for a while - I look at the skill set of the players in the top 6 who play in his role or similar, and although they may lack his tackling and interception stats, their mobility and ability to drive forwards with or without the ball really sets them aside.
I am with Leuth now in as much as I was thinking maybe if we went 4-2-3-1 and had someone alongside Dobson then he could flourish a little more. But then after seeing Morsy and Luongo (perhaps a little too good for this league) I still think he would be too one paced.
Id never count him out though. He’s one of those players who seems to always come back stronger and better.
I cannot see a reason to assume he cannot be part of the promotion winning team. Maybe trying to be too dexterous in thought?
I want to see him tried at centre-back. You may laugh, but I'd like it at least tried. Now is the perfect chance.
I'm not saying that's because of Dobbo obviously, but what I don't accept that all our midfield problems are because of the players alongside Dobbo.