Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
I'd like to see the stats. Tackles won versus goals conceded. On a scatter graph. For League One.
Then I'd like to see interceptions versus goals conceded, where I'd say there's likely a different story
The results would be meaningless since teams who spend more time defending will spend more time tackling and intercepting.
The clearer test is whether a three-man midfield without a tackler will concede more goals than a midfield that features a tackler. But that's just basic football.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
I'd like to see the stats. Tackles won versus goals conceded. On a scatter graph. For League One.
Then I'd like to see interceptions versus goals conceded, where I'd say there's likely a different story
The results would be meaningless since teams who spend more time defending will spend more time tackling and intercepting.
The clearer test is whether a three-man midfield without a tackler will concede more goals than a midfield that features a tackler. But that's just basic football.
Midfielders are not 'tacklers' or 'non-tacklers' (unless they're Kirk, or Gilbey. Yes even Fraser gets a foot in more than them) - they can generally all tackle. Positioning and anticipation is much more important than execution of the sliding tackle, which is a last resort after all
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
I'd like to see the stats. Tackles won versus goals conceded. On a scatter graph. For League One.
Then I'd like to see interceptions versus goals conceded, where I'd say there's likely a different story
The results would be meaningless since teams who spend more time defending will spend more time tackling and intercepting.
The clearer test is whether a three-man midfield without a tackler will concede more goals than a midfield that features a tackler. But that's just basic football.
Midfielders are not 'tacklers' or 'non-tacklers' (unless they're Kirk, or Gilbey. Yes even Fraser gets a foot in more than them) - they can generally all tackle. Positioning and anticipation is much more important than execution of the sliding tackle, which is a last resort after all
For my own sanity, I'm going to stop talking about football with you.
Not to say I don't like you, I very much do. But you have some bloody funny ideas.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
There’s some truth in that though. The teams at the top will generally have more possession so you may find they put in fewer tackles. They likely read the game and position themselves better so win the ball from interceptions rather than always needing tackles.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Fleetwood were by far the best at slide tackling. Ipswich and Cambridge rarely used slide tackles but were at opposite ends of the table.
There are many ways teams can be successful and stats will look very different based on style of play when they have the ball but also how and where they defend.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
There’s some truth in that though. The teams at the top will generally have more possession so you may find they put in fewer tackles. They likely read the game and position themselves better so win the ball from interceptions rather than always needing tackles.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Fleetwood were by far the best at slide tackling. Ipswich and Cambridge rarely used slide tackles but were at opposite ends of the table.
There are many ways teams can be successful and stats will look very different based on style of play when they have the ball but also how and where they defend.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
Yeah, that's what I've said above. Teams who spend more time defending will naturally tackle more. Dominant teams aren't going to spend 80% of the game winning the ball back.
The top three sides for winning tackles and interceptions this season are in the relegation zone.
But in talking about a midfield setup, there is almost certainly a correlation between a team conceding goals when it lacks players who can win the ball.
The idea that there would be no difference between playing a midfield of Fraser, Watson & May - and having one that included a Dobson/Pratley type... Is for the birds.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
There’s some truth in that though. The teams at the top will generally have more possession so you may find they put in fewer tackles. They likely read the game and position themselves better so win the ball from interceptions rather than always needing tackles.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Fleetwood were by far the best at slide tackling. Ipswich and Cambridge rarely used slide tackles but were at opposite ends of the table.
There are many ways teams can be successful and stats will look very different based on style of play when they have the ball but also how and where they defend.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
Yeah, that's what I've said above. Teams who spend more time defending will naturally tackle more. Dominant teams aren't going to spend 80% of the game winning the ball back.
The top three sides for winning tackles and interceptions this season are in the relegation zone.
But in talking about a midfield setup, there is almost certainly a correlation between a team conceding goals when it lacks players who can win the ball.
The idea that there would be no difference between playing a midfield of Fraser, Watson & May - and having one that included a Dobson/Pratley type... Is for the birds.
Good modern midfielders can do it all. Bolton's all could. Dobson almost can but his positioning and decision-making on the ball are sometimes amiss. McGrandles, Watson and Fraser almost can too, but may all lack a bit of burst speed.
If our midfield lacks anything it's a bit of pace and drive, but technicality and combativity are not issues
(May playing a deeper wing role is a good way of exploiting his own drive, which is one of his best assets. In fact I'm sure he'd be great in centre midfield too)
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
There’s some truth in that though. The teams at the top will generally have more possession so you may find they put in fewer tackles. They likely read the game and position themselves better so win the ball from interceptions rather than always needing tackles.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Fleetwood were by far the best at slide tackling. Ipswich and Cambridge rarely used slide tackles but were at opposite ends of the table.
There are many ways teams can be successful and stats will look very different based on style of play when they have the ball but also how and where they defend.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
Yeah, that's what I've said above. Teams who spend more time defending will naturally tackle more. Dominant teams aren't going to spend 80% of the game winning the ball back.
The top three sides for winning tackles and interceptions this season are in the relegation zone.
But in talking about a midfield setup, there is almost certainly a correlation between a team conceding goals when it lacks players who can win the ball.
The idea that there would be no difference between playing a midfield of Fraser, Watson & May - and having one that included a Dobson/Pratley type... Is for the birds.
Good modern midfielders can do it all. Bolton's all could. Dobson almost can but his positioning and decision-making on the ball are sometimes amiss. McGrandles, Watson and Fraser almost can too, but may all lack a bit of burst speed.
If our midfield lacks anything it's a bit of pace and drive, but technicality and combativity are not issues
On the last point to be fair to the club they identified that and brought in Camara. They’re not the easiest players to find, and before his Ipswich injury he had a very good fitness record so I can see why we gambled on him.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
There’s some truth in that though. The teams at the top will generally have more possession so you may find they put in fewer tackles. They likely read the game and position themselves better so win the ball from interceptions rather than always needing tackles.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Fleetwood were by far the best at slide tackling. Ipswich and Cambridge rarely used slide tackles but were at opposite ends of the table.
There are many ways teams can be successful and stats will look very different based on style of play when they have the ball but also how and where they defend.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
Yeah, that's what I've said above. Teams who spend more time defending will naturally tackle more. Dominant teams aren't going to spend 80% of the game winning the ball back.
The top three sides for winning tackles and interceptions this season are in the relegation zone.
But in talking about a midfield setup, there is almost certainly a correlation between a team conceding goals when it lacks players who can win the ball.
The idea that there would be no difference between playing a midfield of Fraser, Watson & May - and having one that included a Dobson/Pratley type... Is for the birds.
Good modern midfielders can do it all. Bolton's all could. Dobson almost can but his positioning and decision-making on the ball are sometimes amiss. McGrandles, Watson and Fraser almost can too, but may all lack a bit of burst speed.
If our midfield lacks anything it's a bit of pace and drive, but technicality and combativity are not issues
On the last point to be fair to the club they identified that and brought in Camara. They’re not the easiest players to find, and before his Ipswich injury he had a very good fitness record so I can see why we gambled on him.
Definitely agree with that, that's exactly what we've been missing in the midfield.
Camara has been a big miss.
Terry Taylor too: young, nimble, tenacious, covers the ground, good passing range, etc
Needs to cut down on his hollywood balls, does my head in.
If he had Louie Watson alongside him he wouldn't have the need to play those types of ball, as they seem to link well and have a footballing intelligence above most League One sides. I don't understand why Watson isn't starting in front of either McGrandles or Fraser, as he is far superior to both.
Dobson's been pretty poor the last two games imo, we need a response akin to what he mustered at Wigan. I don't necessarily think a world without Dobson will be all doom and gloom if he is leaving, although when he's good he's obviously very effective indeed. Hope he signs a new contract and knuckles down and stops shooting with his left foot or going for so many hero passes
Are you including last night’s game? I thought he was superb. He was all over the pitch, winning balls, playing perfect, often searching passes that always came off. His stats last night must be fantastic. God help us if he leaves as he’s by far the most influential, creative midfielder we have had for years.
I’m hearing that a contract is on the table but that it is not that great. It suggests that Andy Scott has a lower opinion of George’s influence/impact/importance than both us, the fans and the manager who, probably has GD down as one of the first 3 names on his team sheet each week. Time will tell. Stats tell too and will speak loudly to potential alternative suitors looking for an impact midfielder.
I’m hearing that a contract is on the table but that it is not that great. It suggests that Andy Scott has a lower opinion of George’s influence/impact/importance than both us, the fans and the manager who, probably has GD down as one of the first 3 names on his team sheet each week. Time will tell. Stats tell too and will speak loudly to potential alternative suitors looking for an impact midfielder.
Would like to see if there is a correlation between tackles won and goals conceded tbh
You really need to see some data on that?
I think the results might be quite surprising, for you
There we have it... The biggest breakthrough in football tactics since the 4231: You don't stop the other team scoring by tackling.
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
I'd like to see the stats. Tackles won versus goals conceded. On a scatter graph. For League One.
Then I'd like to see interceptions versus goals conceded, where I'd say there's likely a different story
The results would be meaningless since teams who spend more time defending will spend more time tackling and intercepting.
The clearer test is whether a three-man midfield without a tackler will concede more goals than a midfield that features a tackler. But that's just basic football.
Midfielders are not 'tacklers' or 'non-tacklers' (unless they're Kirk, or Gilbey. Yes even Fraser gets a foot in more than them) - they can generally all tackle. Positioning and anticipation is much more important than execution of the sliding tackle, which is a last resort after all
For my own sanity, I'm going to stop talking about football with you.
Not to say I don't like you, I very much do. But you have some bloody funny ideas.
I don't think this is a funny idea, it's actually a pretty well known thing that the best way to not concede goals is to have the ball, and if you don't then making sure your positioning across the team is tight and effective so there are no gaps for the opposition to play into. Some of the greatest defensive players of all time would agree. Guardiola had his famous 'what is tackles' press conference where he said 'When you go down in a tackle, you are in trouble. Try to focus on playing better with the ball and you will avoid a lot of tackles'. Granted we're not Man City so we're not going to keep the ball like that but the theory is there. Xabi Alonso, one of the greatest deep-lying midfielders didn't understand why players were coached and defined by their tackling as they developed and said 'Tackling is a last resort and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition'. And the most famous of all, Paolo Maldini said 'if I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake'. he was one of the greatest tacklers of all time but he only made 0.56 challenges a game across his career because he was more busy intercepting, closing off avenues for passes to go either side of him and clearing loose balls. Obviously Maldini was a defender but Alonso and Guardiola occupied the same space as Dobson does and they controlled the flow with and without the ball rather than winning it back in duels all game. They're a tad better than Dobson overall but his equivalents would be players like Sam Morsy, Josh Sheehan or Cameron Brannagan. Top deep midfielders at this level but nowhere near the top of the tackling charts because they're all about control of the ball and the space. Dobson is, I think, third in the tackling charts but the players around him play for Carlisle, Shrewsbury, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Wycombe and Reading. Not very dominant teams with only one of them above us and three of them in the relegation spots. The thing is you do have to be good at tackling, you have to win the ball when it comes to it but Leuth is right in that if you're putting in loads of tackles then you're getting into one on one scraps which means you're getting dragged and leaving spaces exposed and you're not controlling the ball. Players have space to run and someone is getting pulled where they shouldn't to be isolated against a player. Bolton are top and I think their highest tackling midfielder is 87th for tackles. I like Dobson and I think he's a better footballer than he's given credit for but he doesn't control a game and his positioning leaves a lot to be desired. It's the same with the rest of the midfield, the balance isn't great and it means we're always chasing attacks or leaving gaps in the build-up. We concede goals because we're unstructured as a team in our phases
only a few months left on his contract .. I hope the club are making plans to offer a new deal .. he's not Declan Rice, but he's the best that we've got
I’m hearing that a contract is on the table but that it is not that great. It suggests that Andy Scott has a lower opinion of George’s influence/impact/importance than both us, the fans and the manager who, probably has GD down as one of the first 3 names on his team sheet each week. Time will tell. Stats tell too and will speak loudly to potential alternative suitors looking for an impact midfielder.
Similar to what I heard. Well if I succession planning involves Camara and T Taylor, not much has changed in terms of where we are shopping. Replacing your best performing players with injury hit ones is not the, erm one.
It's funny how across the forum there is opinion among different people that we'd be fine losing Dobson, CBT and Leaburn. That's our best 3 players from last season, and really only May would come above them now.
That being said, I've also been curious in previous seasons whether Dobson is in some way holding us back despite his obvious strengths. Think he's been alot better on the ball this season though.
However if there's 1 thing we should have learnt over this long period of decline its that losing our key players is never a good thing.
Dobson isn't necessarily the cause of our problems so much as a symptom. Having someone thundering around, flying into tackles etc looks and feels good on an emotional level but realistically the fact that we "need" someone to do that is due to a poorly balanced midfield - as GM already said.
If you control the ball and have a proper, fluid midfield then someone like Dobson is obsolete because there wouldn't be so many attacks that need to be stopped with a tackle.
That's why I really don't think that Dobson is going anywhere yet. Teams bigger and better than us don't need him, teams below us can't afford him.
My only issue with Dobson is that his single minded determination to get to the ball can leave gaping spaces behind him if he doesn't get the ball.
This season it definitely feels that he's changed his game, running forward more and making more passes, rather than his previous style of play which was winning the ball and laying it off to the "ball players".
Comments
No wonder you're a Hector fan.
Then I'd like to see interceptions versus goals conceded, where I'd say there's likely a different story
The clearer test is whether a three-man midfield without a tackler will concede more goals than a midfield that features a tackler. But that's just basic football.
Here’s an article from March last season with a few interesting graphs.
We won the highest % of individual duels but were mid table. Ipswich won automatic promotion soon after despite the fewest duels in terms of volume in the league.
Lots of benefit if stats are used effectively but also very easy to misinterpret or miss something and not tell the whole story.
The top three sides for winning tackles and interceptions this season are in the relegation zone.
But in talking about a midfield setup, there is almost certainly a correlation between a team conceding goals when it lacks players who can win the ball.
The idea that there would be no difference between playing a midfield of Fraser, Watson & May - and having one that included a Dobson/Pratley type... Is for the birds.
If our midfield lacks anything it's a bit of pace and drive, but technicality and combativity are not issues
Camara has been a big miss.
Terry Taylor too: young, nimble, tenacious, covers the ground, good passing range, etc
I don't understand why Watson isn't starting in front of either McGrandles or Fraser, as he is far superior to both.
Guardiola had his famous 'what is tackles' press conference where he said 'When you go down in a tackle, you are in trouble. Try to focus on playing better with the ball and you will avoid a lot of tackles'. Granted we're not Man City so we're not going to keep the ball like that but the theory is there. Xabi Alonso, one of the greatest deep-lying midfielders didn't understand why players were coached and defined by their tackling as they developed and said 'Tackling is a last resort and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition'.
And the most famous of all, Paolo Maldini said 'if I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake'. he was one of the greatest tacklers of all time but he only made 0.56 challenges a game across his career because he was more busy intercepting, closing off avenues for passes to go either side of him and clearing loose balls. Obviously Maldini was a defender but Alonso and Guardiola occupied the same space as Dobson does and they controlled the flow with and without the ball rather than winning it back in duels all game. They're a tad better than Dobson overall but his equivalents would be players like Sam Morsy, Josh Sheehan or Cameron Brannagan. Top deep midfielders at this level but nowhere near the top of the tackling charts because they're all about control of the ball and the space. Dobson is, I think, third in the tackling charts but the players around him play for Carlisle, Shrewsbury, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Wycombe and Reading. Not very dominant teams with only one of them above us and three of them in the relegation spots.
The thing is you do have to be good at tackling, you have to win the ball when it comes to it but Leuth is right in that if you're putting in loads of tackles then you're getting into one on one scraps which means you're getting dragged and leaving spaces exposed and you're not controlling the ball. Players have space to run and someone is getting pulled where they shouldn't to be isolated against a player. Bolton are top and I think their highest tackling midfielder is 87th for tackles.
I like Dobson and I think he's a better footballer than he's given credit for but he doesn't control a game and his positioning leaves a lot to be desired. It's the same with the rest of the midfield, the balance isn't great and it means we're always chasing attacks or leaving gaps in the build-up. We concede goals because we're unstructured as a team in our phases
That being said, I've also been curious in previous seasons whether Dobson is in some way holding us back despite his obvious strengths. Think he's been alot better on the ball this season though.
However if there's 1 thing we should have learnt over this long period of decline its that losing our key players is never a good thing.
If you control the ball and have a proper, fluid midfield then someone like Dobson is obsolete because there wouldn't be so many attacks that need to be stopped with a tackle.
That's why I really don't think that Dobson is going anywhere yet. Teams bigger and better than us don't need him, teams below us can't afford him.
This season it definitely feels that he's changed his game, running forward more and making more passes, rather than his previous style of play which was winning the ball and laying it off to the "ball players".