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England v Italy - THE FINAL - Match Thread

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    A gallant effort but penalty's are a lottery.  Southgate could have done things differently & for me was a bit negative when you consider the attacking talent on the bench! Why Grealish was limited to the bench summed it up for me really. Going forward we have some good youngsters so future is bright! 
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    se9addick said:
    I imagine that clip was back in 2012 ;)
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    supaclive said:
    Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

    Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

    I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.
    Sitting back for so long as we did and allowing Italy so much possession just seemed too negative. I don't think Italy had better players overall but their setup was better.
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    Another case of what could have been. Needed that 2nd goal when very much on top in the first half. Thought we looked very assured in that opening 45 minutes. Second half just played  into Italy's hands and always looked a case of when and not if we'd concede. Thought we looked the slightly better side in extra time but seemed to have no legs to really go at Italy.

    Penalties are always awful. No blame for any of the players that stepped up to take them. Can't imagine the pressure they felt. For Sancho and Saka it's a great penalty if the goalie guesses the wrong way. Anyone abusing those players is a complete moron.

    All of the players come out with credit after this tournament. A lot of them like Phillips, Walker and Rice certainly proved me wrong. Hats of to Southgate too. Deserves so praise for how he has developed this team and how he conducts himself. Just needs to trust his attacking players a little more but hopefully that will something he can continue to develop before the World Cup.
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    edited July 2021
    I think our biggest problem was that we essentially played against ourselves, but sadly a more experienced version. Italy are a team based on massive defensive solidity in the middle with full backs who can drive forward and have a huge say in the attacking chances created. Their midfield is there to keep things moving and to provide a block to protect their centre backs. There's not a scrap of pace between Chiellini, Jorginho and Bonucci so they are compact and sensible. In the front three they have pace, invention and the ability to rotate and get goals out of their widemen. They're us basically, but while their overall side are maybe a bit less talented in an attacking sense (you'd take Kane over Immobile, Sterling and our other attackers over an aging Insigne and anyone but Chiesa) they've been doing it for a hell of a lot longer. This Italy side needed extra time and VAR against Austria, but they did it. They went 1-0 up against Spain and then had to deal with a team full of guile attacking them and needed penalties to see them off. Against us our early goal meant the roles reversed and it's no surprise the actual game was settled by goals from defenders in a game of few clear-cut chances. Then it came to penalties, and that's where our young side felt a little exposed. We brought on penalty takers who aren't even penalty takers for their domestic team, because we only had one of those and he was already on. Rice takes pens for West Ham but was off, and Mount would also have taken one but was sacrificed for Grealish which was the right move at the time. Weirdly both Belotti and Jorginho, who actually do take the penalties for their teams, missed. Just goes to show it all comes down to the moment and fewer of our players handled it than theirs. To take a wily Italy team to that point with a team so young is brilliant though, there's so much progress can be seen from this tournament. I don't think Southgate particularly got it wrong in this game, he set up right, England inevitably began to suffer against an Italy side who had essentially 88 minutes before them to push for an equaliser. He maybe could have changed it a bit before their equaliser but we still pushed in waves, we just couldn't carve out that all-important chance, Sterling broke into the box a few times but was shepherded brilliantly by the experienced centre backs and Mount's cut back hit Saka who couldn't sort out his feet near the end. Today feels terrible but there's so much potential in this side
    Italy would have done similar had they scored first. They put on an extra midfielder because they had to and we tried to hold out, and we probably had a half decent chance of doing so. I hate that approach, but it got us to the final and it is no good us moaning about it. I mentioned the word negative after the Denmark game and got jumped on a bit by some, but that was our approach and it got us to a final.

    Ultimately, the biggest thing that killed us was getting an early goal. Will Southgate change? He didn't from the semi against Croatia in the WC. But he does deserve immense credit. Yes, he is probably one of the most negative managers imaginable and it cost us yesterday IMO, but would a more positive manager have got us to the final? Maybe not.
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    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
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    robroy said:
    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
    The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday

    Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
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    Gutted…

    We won’t get another route to the final like that.

    I can’t knock Southgate for his tactics, a semi and a final in two tournaments is better than most… but in the second half we weren’t in it, we needed to be more positive. We had the better players to come off the bench and I wished he’d gone for it…

    I just feel so flat. Reminds me of the day after Euro 96, getting the train into town, it was quiet, subdued and miserable…

    People said that after Russia 2018...

    Have seen fans on twitter claim that our route to the Final was easier this year than that occasion

    Yet were Germany really more shite compared to Colombia | Sweden | Croatia - Even Denmark
    Yesterday wasn’t a ‘once in a lifetime experience’. This team will make the latter stages of more big tournaments.


    This. One thing I have learned from this tournament is maybe the hoodoo is someone broken.  Semi final in WC and lost on pens in a Euro final.   No team in the euros looked untouchable and on another night we beat Italy.

    Hopefully this puts an extra bit of fire in the bellies of our team and we push on even more.  

    Did themselves proud and feel a lot more optimistic about the future of English football than I have done after the usual 2 year tournament exit as gutted as we're feeling today.
    Me too. Lots of positives to take from this tournament. We got to the final with a team that is still improving. Can't wait for the World Cup - bring it on!
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    supaclive said:
    Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

    Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

    I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.
    Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.
    Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.
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    supaclive said:
    Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

    Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

    I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.
    Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.
    Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.
    We can agree to disagree but Mount wasn't everywhere last night and it didn't work him playing wide.   His touch was off and he didn't offer enough from a wide man in a front 3.
    Compared to what our wide players have offered in every game except the Scotland game.    Moving Sterling about lost his effectiveness, so sorry, I can't agree.

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    robroy said:
    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
    The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday

    Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
    The 1966 World cup final kick-off was 15.00 on a Saturday afternoon, i believe.
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    To me the simple fact is,that apart from catching them cold with the early goal,we never laid a glove on them.The penalty taking arguments can go on forever,so wont bother with commentating on that.
    But here is the positive,Italy were full of players either at the peak of their game,or boasting 100 caps.We had no where near that experience.Italy will in my opinion have peaked at this tournament,Bonnicci,Chielini,wonderful defenders,but will this be their swan song.Most of our attackers and midfielders are still kids,they will get over this and come back stronger.
    To the pond life that racially abused the penalty takers,piss off back down your cess pit and stay away from our football grounds.

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    Think the tactics were all wrong in the final and the better team on the day won. 

    Euros as a whole of course is a success and it's incredible we even made it to the final. Hopefully Southgate and the management team fully analyse the final and the decisions made, so the next time we're in that position we manage the game better. 

    First Croatia and now this, its something that has happened more than once. Early goal and we don't really know how to manage the game after.
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    robroy said:
    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
    The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday

    Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
    Sorry to be a pedant but the Euro 1988 final was actually a 15:30ko.  Van Basten scored in daylight.
    I make you right on all the others though (I think!)

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    Hard to criticise when we came so close to a glorious win. After going a goal behind Italy really hammered us. I felt it inevitable that they would eventually score. Would we have done better with Sancho or Grealish in for Mount? I think so but we would have been defensively weaker so who knows.
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    robroy said:
    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
    The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday

    Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
    The last World Cup in Russia was in the middle of the afternoon here
    The 2002 World Cup was on a Sunday morning here
    The 1992 European Championships was on a Friday night
    The 1988 European Championships was a Saturday afternoon
    The 1984 European Championships was a weekday night

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    edited July 2021
    Amazing to think we got to a final and only one of our 26 man squad wasn't fit for selection. Unfortunately it was Phil Foden. 

    I'm not watching this game back but a fit Foden for Mount 15 minutes into the 2nd half to link play with Sterling and Kane as well as the impressive Rice who had a powerhouse of a match with so many runs forward. Declan only got caught out once from the impressive Chiesa who very nearly scored.

    The only surprise about the final was England scoring early in 2 minutes by England's Man of the tournament Luke Shaw. Italy having 66% of the play was no surprise because if we had played Spain I believe 75% of possession would have been the total for the Spanish.

    The possession stats can have no bearing on who wins but your players get tired out chasing shadows, and then in transition the swift counter attack of the second minute can't happen. Shaw started and ended the move for our early goal. 

    The smiling assassin should've been exposed more and if he had the yanking of the shirt on Saka could have been his last involvement. Was Chiellini foul on Saka not serious foul play ? As well as the over the top studs on the leg of Grealish by Jorginho? 

    My Angst against Denmark when others were celebrating was because I felt we would stick and not twist against Italy even if we took the lead. Of course you don't become gung ho but the swift counter attack would have exposed the aging legs in that Italian defence. Problem was the passing became scrappy and Sterling didn't have his A game and Kane who had started so well was so well marshalled by Italy he didn't have one shot or create a chance for only the second time in 60 odd matches for England 

    Still for Charlton fans we have Fleetwood and Cambridge to look forward too !

    Anyone else feeling lower than a Dachshund's testicles this morning after a poor night's sleep ?

    Ps. Garry Manilow is correct about Mount he has to do a lot of work off the ball unfortunately when on the ball last night his normal good angles didn't all come off.

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    supaclive said:
    supaclive said:
    Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

    Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

    I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.
    Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.
    Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.
    We can agree to disagree but Mount wasn't everywhere last night and it didn't work him playing wide.   His touch was off and he didn't offer enough from a wide man in a front 3.
    Compared to what our wide players have offered in every game except the Scotland game.    Moving Sterling about lost his effectiveness, so sorry, I can't agree.

    Yeah, he was. He popped up all over the pitch when Italy had the ball and to great effect. He wasn't there to play as a wide man in a front three in a traditional sense and he did what he was there to do very well. Some people unfortunately just don't get what Mount brings to the team, but the kind of hard-working performances he puts in chasing from the front are part of what got us to the final, even if they don't catch the eye.
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    JohnnyH2 said:
    robroy said:
    Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.

    Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats 
    Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble 
    The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday

    Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
    The last World Cup in Russia was in the middle of the afternoon here
    The 2002 World Cup was on a Sunday morning here
    The 1992 European Championships was on a Friday night
    The 1988 European Championships was a Saturday afternoon
    The 1984 European Championships was a weekday night

    But they kicked off at 8pm local time... the locals in those countries managed to behave themselves didnt they?
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    Lots of noise where I was watching it but did the ref really play England's advantage when we should have had a free kick on the edge of the penalty area with Trippier on the pitch and no real advantage on?  Then let Italy stamp on Grealish and pull Saka's shirt by the neck or am I wrong?
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    Overall I thought the boys did us proud and Southgate for the most part got it spot on. 

    I do think that his generally defensive mindset held us back last night and we should have been making some more attacking subs in the second half. 

    Against a cynical side like Italy - Grealish should have been on much earlier - drawing them into red card territory with his skill at “winning” free kicks. 
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    supaclive said:
    supaclive said:
    Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

    Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

    I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.
    Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.
    Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.
    We can agree to disagree but Mount wasn't everywhere last night and it didn't work him playing wide.   His touch was off and he didn't offer enough from a wide man in a front 3.
    Compared to what our wide players have offered in every game except the Scotland game.    Moving Sterling about lost his effectiveness, so sorry, I can't agree.

    Yeah, he was. He popped up all over the pitch when Italy had the ball and to great effect. He wasn't there to play as a wide man in a front three in a traditional sense and he did what he was there to do very well. Some people unfortunately just don't get what Mount brings to the team, but the kind of hard-working performances he puts in chasing from the front are part of what got us to the final, even if they don't catch the eye.
    So you must be right?   Of course, silly me.   You say so, so it is true.  That's why Mount was subbed not because he was ineffective and didn't do what we needed of him as a wide man in a front 3?   I hope Gareth takes you to Qatar, because you obviously are more qualified than me or thousands of other England fans.  :-)
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