Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.
It could have been deemed a red but I think the fact first contact was on the ball saved him. Calling for the Chiellini drag back on Saka to be a red is ridiculous.
In Penalty shoot outs players who have missed from memory:
Pearce and Waddle, experienced players. Southgate, young player
Batty, had not taken a penalty since School in a competitive match. Ince, didn't like to take penalities and normally looked the other way. Beckham against Portugal Vassels I remember because it was a quiz question last year on Zoom ! Lampard right man but... Gerard right man but..... Carragher wrong man.
Now added to that list is
Rashford, Sancho and Saka.
Must be other names but there the ones I recall.
Ashley Young & Ashley Cole v Italy, which I'd completely forgotten about until Ashley Cole mentioned it the other day on ITV.
Cole and Young missed in 2012 in the 0-0 game with Italy. 4-2 pens. (After therapy I had forgotten about the two Ashley misses)
There was a clever headline which could still be used today as this guy is the epitome of midfield excellence.
Italy are a very good side. They were always going to dominate the ball and there is no shame in losing to them, especially on penalties. Southgate’s tactics were IMO spot on and but for an unlucky ricochet off the post at a set piece, we would’ve held on for a 1-0 win
Until we have box to box midfielders with the technical quality of Jorginho, Verratti et al, the game was always going to play out the way it did. Putting on a Grealish or a Foden (if he was fit) doesn’t magically flip the script like some seem to think.
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.
And Chiellini's shirt pull/choke.
Seen lots of people claiming Chiellini's shirt pull was a red card. It was a strategic foul to stop Saka breaking away. It's not as if he was clean through on goal. Only ever going to be a yellow card.
The Grealish 1 though, for me is a red card offence
Well Muttley, your 50% Italian so you should be happy from the waist down.
As the rules stand, when Saka had his collar felt it was a yellow But we are seeing so many blatant rugby type challenges that should get more than a yellow card. I agree he was only choked, and the smiling assassin wanted to help him back to his feet after Saka found his eyeballs that had popped out.
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.
And Chiellini's shirt pull/choke.
Seen lots of people claiming Chiellini's shirt pull was a red card. It was a strategic foul to stop Saka breaking away. It's not as if he was clean through on goal. Only ever going to be a yellow card.
The Grealish 1 though, for me is a red card offence
Completely agree on Chiellini, and most I've seen saying they thought it was a red card are the more casual watchers I'd say - it was cynical, but it was only a yellow card, and Chiellini knew that.
The Jorginho one could easily have been a red card.
Seen Dietmar Hamann on Twitter calling Italy a “toothless” side and criticising Southgate for a negative approach.
Is that the same toothless Italy that scored 7 goals without conceding in the group stage? The same Italy that ended up tournament joint top scorers alongside Spain?
England had the best defensive record in the tournament, conceding only two goals. Next best were Belgium (3) and Finland (3). Netherlands, Italy, Sweden and Czech Republic all conceded four.
Our media outlets pick and choose which aspects of the game to focus on.
For example, Neville made another sarcy and negative dig at Pickford yesterday. It would have been easier for him to take had he messed up during the game or penalties.
Nobody seems to have disected the weak defending from Stones and Mount for Italy's goal, or why Kane dropped so deep onto the line to keep them onside.
Italy are a very good side. They were always going to dominate the ball and there is no shame in losing to them, especially on penalties. Southgate’s tactics were IMO spot on and but for an unlucky ricochet off the post at a set piece, we would’ve held on for a 1-0 win
Until we have box to box midfielders with the technical quality of Jorginho, Verratti et al, the game was always going to play out the way it did. Putting on a Grealish or a Foden (if he was fit) doesn’t magically flip the script like some seem to think.
I have been thinking what I think it is going to take to get me feeling truly confident going into a major tournament that we can win it..... cos even after this it is always hope rather than expectation.
Totally different sport (and I am not as big a fan) but thinking back to the RWC that we won..... we just KNEW we had the best team in the world. No doubt, no discussion. Everyone accepted it. Like the best French and Spanish teams of recent times.
We need to get to that level frankly. We wont get the luck to do a Denmark '92 etc against the odds. We need to be comfortably the best side in the world to avoid the classic England heartbreak.
I am looking at the talent coming through and frankly just want to get what I feel is the best chance of that side on the pitch together ASAP and constantly playing match after match (likes of Walker and Trippier wont have long left to have a shot)
Pickford / Pope TAA Shaw Maguire Stones Rice Mount Foden Sterling Kane Sancho / Grealish
I think Qatar will be survival of the fittest, weird time of the year, conditions will be horrible for some games, and you'll see some weird results, so oddly I don't expect much, Germany 2024 has to be a target to win, Belgium will be gone as a force, Italy in a rebuild, Germany will have lot of home advantage but I don't think they've got a squad and France will be France.
Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.
Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats
Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble
The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday
Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
Sorry to be a pedant but the Euro 1988 final was actually a 15:30ko. Van Basten scored in daylight. I make you right on all the others though (I think!)
Left the pub straight after the game & the streets in the town centre were full of youngsters fighting & arguing with each other. Heard a couple of pubs got shut down during the game too. I just don't get it.
Some proper bellends about last night & an England defeat always seems to bring out the worst in these twats
Should have been a 3pm kick off, would have stopped a load of trouble
The Euros and World Cup Finals have always been at 8pm on a Sunday
Unfortunately a number of England fans (wont call them a large number as dont think they represent the majority of our fans) have proven their immaturity compared to when other Nations get to a Final
Sorry to be a pedant but the Euro 1988 final was actually a 15:30ko. Van Basten scored in daylight. I make you right on all the others though (I think!)
I watched every game of the England U17 WC win with Foden the star midfielder pulling the strings. Phil may just have made a difference by being a penalty taker( if fit) ahead of Saka, we will never know. His progress since has been brilliant compared to his peer group. Only Sancho has continued to progress at a fast rate (Brewster has hit the wall )
Foden will be a main central figure for England in the next WC. The way England play at the moment he was only ever going to be peripheral.
Bellingham, Rice, Foden, Mount, Sancho, Grealish, Saka and not forgetting the fittest player in the England team Phillips we should continue to improve as they get more street wise in international football and contest those midfield places.
The future is bright, but an opportunity was missed but Southgate has a very good CV in international tournaments even if it is still a Spursy CV. (Sorry John boy)
Italy are a very good side. They were always going to dominate the ball and there is no shame in losing to them, especially on penalties. Southgate’s tactics were IMO spot on and but for an unlucky ricochet off the post at a set piece, we would’ve held on for a 1-0 win
Until we have box to box midfielders with the technical quality of Jorginho, Verratti et al, the game was always going to play out the way it did. Putting on a Grealish or a Foden (if he was fit) doesn’t magically flip the script like some seem to think.
Can only really think of Scholes in my lifetime who has been that kind of player for England, we seem to either have decent defensive midfielders like Rice, or "final 3rd" types midfielders like Foden/Grealish (and Gerrard, Lampard etc).
We just don't seem to produce the Pirlo, Madrid, Kroos type midfielders, and I think it's the one big thing missing at the moment.
Imagine a player like that playing clever little balls into the likes of Sancho, Sterling, Foden etc.
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.
And Chiellini's shirt pull/choke.
Seen lots of people claiming Chiellini's shirt pull was a red card. It was a strategic foul to stop Saka breaking away. It's not as if he was clean through on goal. Only ever going to be a yellow card.
The Grealish 1 though, for me is a red card offence
Completely agree on Chiellini, and most I've seen saying they thought it was a red card are the more casual watchers I'd say - it was cynical, but it was only a yellow card, and Chiellini knew that.
The Jorginho one could easily have been a red card.
It was cynical but Chiellini knew he couldn't be sent off it. He took the booking because of how late it was and he thought there was a risk, but there was cover.
We looked great for the first twenty minutes, but stopped playing football after that. We should have tried to go for a second as it was obvious that defending a lead for 70 minutes against a side of Italy's calibre wouldn't work; and sure enough, it didn't.
It was obvious even after 30 minutes that our tactics were no longer working and a change was needed, but Southgate did nothing. You cannot play attack vs defence for most of the game against a top side and expect to get a result - it was utterly predictable. As a consequence, we were absolutely dire in the second half as we had no way of taking the pressure off our defence by playing in the opposition's half. Their goal was inevitable and only some very good defending from us and a big dose of luck prevented us being beaten in normal time.
Southgate only reacted when it was too late, changing the system to allow us to at least have a chance of scoring. Imagine if Grealish (I think that Foden being unavailable was a real shame) had had a whole half to try and unlock the Italian defence instead of a few minutes in extra time?
It isn't Southgate's fault that nearly all of his subs came on and played badly (e.g Henderson, Saka); if they had played as well as they were capable of, then things could maybe have been different, but after the first twenty we looked like losers.
I felt really sorry for the subs coming on at the end; barely getting a kick in the tournament at that point is unlikely to have helped their confidence; expecting them to step up and do the necessary under the highest pressure conditions possible in the game was always a step too far, especially the youngsters. We don't know the ins and outs of who wanted to take a penalty or not, so it is unfair to blame any individuals involved, especially Sancho and Saka. I also felt sorry for Pickford who did exceptionally well under the circumstances; if you save two out of five, then you expect to be in with a good chance of winning the shoot out, but to put your chances in the hands of youngsters is far to much to expect.
Still, I never expected us to get this far, so I can't be too disappointed at the final outcome, which I actually expected before the game kicked off.
And as for the racial abuse etc. from the usual morons; I believe that it is now time for the football world to put its money where its mouth is and stage a PROPER boycott of Twitter until they introduce a voluntary registration scheme whereby prominent people (and indeed, anyone) can choose to only receive messages from traceable accounts. As I said before, some morons will probably still do it (stupid is as stupid does), but at least some of these cowards would be answerable for their actions - put their names and faces in the papers and see how they fucking like it. I'd like to punch one of c***s if I had the chance, wouldn't you?
Why Twitter have not acted to do this yet is the question everyone should be asking of them. Unless all football clubs and organisations demand action and boycott social media, then they are just full of shit and don't actually care about the harm being done to young people whose only 'crime' is to fail to kick a ball into net in a sports game.
Time for actions, not words.
Congratulations, Italy. You were too good for us. Congratulations, England, you did far better than any of us realistically expected. You can be very proud.
Now we can turn our attention to a barnstorming promotion season for the Addicks. COYR!
For me we just scored too early. May have been different if they had scored in the first 2 mins and we had to attack for 88mins, drawing on the firepower from the bench.
I don't think the best team won, was pretty even sided for me. All the players did us proud. Shaw, rice, phillips, mags all stand out for me.
Italy are a very good side. They were always going to dominate the ball and there is no shame in losing to them, especially on penalties. Southgate’s tactics were IMO spot on and but for an unlucky ricochet off the post at a set piece, we would’ve held on for a 1-0 win
Until we have box to box midfielders with the technical quality of Jorginho, Verratti et al, the game was always going to play out the way it did. Putting on a Grealish or a Foden (if he was fit) doesn’t magically flip the script like some seem to think.
Can only really think of Scholes in my lifetime who has been that kind of player for England, we seem to either have decent defensive midfielders like Rice, or "final 3rd" types midfielders like Foden/Grealish (and Gerrard, Lampard etc).
We just don't seem to produce the Pirlo, Madrid, Kroos type midfielders, and I think it's the one big thing missing at the moment.
Imagine a player like that playing clever little balls into the likes of Sancho, Sterling, Foden etc.
It all comes down to style of play and coaching. Pretty sure Foden and Grealish have the ability to play central midfield but it would require the team set up to support keeping the ball rather than just defending and Southgate just isn't capable enough to make it happen.
Comments
But I probably felt worse a year ago when Charlton were relegated
Cole and Young missed in 2012 in the 0-0 game with Italy. 4-2 pens. (After therapy I had forgotten about the two Ashley misses)
There was a clever headline which could still be used today as this guy is the epitome of midfield excellence.
"Tears on my Pirlo as England lose on Penalities"
Until we have box to box midfielders with the technical quality of Jorginho, Verratti et al, the game was always going to play out the way it did. Putting on a Grealish or a Foden (if he was fit) doesn’t magically flip the script like some seem to think.
The Grealish 1 though, for me is a red card offence
As the rules stand, when Saka had his collar felt it was a yellow But we are seeing so many blatant rugby type challenges that should get more than a yellow card. I agree he was only choked, and the smiling assassin wanted to help him back to his feet after Saka found his eyeballs that had popped out.
Trevor Kettle is ref and Italy have 9 men.
The Jorginho one could easily have been a red card.
Is that the same toothless Italy that scored 7 goals without conceding in the group stage? The same Italy that ended up tournament joint top scorers alongside Spain?
Welcome to CL Jose Mourinho.
(Chelsea v Cafc League cup !)
For example, Neville made another sarcy and negative dig at Pickford yesterday. It would have been easier for him to take had he messed up during the game or penalties.
Nobody seems to have disected the weak defending from Stones and Mount for Italy's goal, or why Kane dropped so deep onto the line to keep them onside.
Onviously we lost the shootout. But we didn’t lose a match in 90 mins, or even in 120 mins.
Totally different sport (and I am not as big a fan) but thinking back to the RWC that we won..... we just KNEW we had the best team in the world. No doubt, no discussion. Everyone accepted it. Like the best French and Spanish teams of recent times.
We need to get to that level frankly. We wont get the luck to do a Denmark '92 etc against the odds. We need to be comfortably the best side in the world to avoid the classic England heartbreak.
I am looking at the talent coming through and frankly just want to get what I feel is the best chance of that side on the pitch together ASAP and constantly playing match after match (likes of Walker and Trippier wont have long left to have a shot)
Pickford / Pope
TAA
Shaw
Maguire
Stones
Rice
Mount
Foden
Sterling
Kane
Sancho / Grealish
Foden will be a main central figure for England in the next WC. The way England play at the moment he was only ever going to be peripheral.
Bellingham, Rice, Foden, Mount, Sancho, Grealish, Saka and not forgetting the fittest player in the England team Phillips we should continue to improve as they get more street wise in international football and contest those midfield places.
The future is bright, but an opportunity was missed but Southgate has a very good CV in international tournaments even if it is still a Spursy CV. (Sorry John boy)
We just don't seem to produce the Pirlo, Madrid, Kroos type midfielders, and I think it's the one big thing missing at the moment.
Imagine a player like that playing clever little balls into the likes of Sancho, Sterling, Foden etc.
We looked great for the first twenty minutes, but stopped playing football after that. We should have tried to go for a second as it was obvious that defending a lead for 70 minutes against a side of Italy's calibre wouldn't work; and sure enough, it didn't.
It was obvious even after 30 minutes that our tactics were no longer working and a change was needed, but Southgate did nothing. You cannot play attack vs defence for most of the game against a top side and expect to get a result - it was utterly predictable. As a consequence, we were absolutely dire in the second half as we had no way of taking the pressure off our defence by playing in the opposition's half. Their goal was inevitable and only some very good defending from us and a big dose of luck prevented us being beaten in normal time.
Southgate only reacted when it was too late, changing the system to allow us to at least have a chance of scoring. Imagine if Grealish (I think that Foden being unavailable was a real shame) had had a whole half to try and unlock the Italian defence instead of a few minutes in extra time?
It isn't Southgate's fault that nearly all of his subs came on and played badly (e.g Henderson, Saka); if they had played as well as they were capable of, then things could maybe have been different, but after the first twenty we looked like losers.
I felt really sorry for the subs coming on at the end; barely getting a kick in the tournament at that point is unlikely to have helped their confidence; expecting them to step up and do the necessary under the highest pressure conditions possible in the game was always a step too far, especially the youngsters. We don't know the ins and outs of who wanted to take a penalty or not, so it is unfair to blame any individuals involved, especially Sancho and Saka. I also felt sorry for Pickford who did exceptionally well under the circumstances; if you save two out of five, then you expect to be in with a good chance of winning the shoot out, but to put your chances in the hands of youngsters is far to much to expect.
Still, I never expected us to get this far, so I can't be too disappointed at the final outcome, which I actually expected before the game kicked off.
And as for the racial abuse etc. from the usual morons; I believe that it is now time for the football world to put its money where its mouth is and stage a PROPER boycott of Twitter until they introduce a voluntary registration scheme whereby prominent people (and indeed, anyone) can choose to only receive messages from traceable accounts. As I said before, some morons will probably still do it (stupid is as stupid does), but at least some of these cowards would be answerable for their actions - put their names and faces in the papers and see how they fucking like it. I'd like to punch one of c***s if I had the chance, wouldn't you?
Why Twitter have not acted to do this yet is the question everyone should be asking of them. Unless all football clubs and organisations demand action and boycott social media, then they are just full of shit and don't actually care about the harm being done to young people whose only 'crime' is to fail to kick a ball into net in a sports game.
Time for actions, not words.
Congratulations, Italy. You were too good for us.
Congratulations, England, you did far better than any of us realistically expected. You can be very proud.
Now we can turn our attention to a barnstorming promotion season for the Addicks. COYR!
I don't think the best team won, was pretty even sided for me. All the players did us proud. Shaw, rice, phillips, mags all stand out for me.
It all comes down to style of play and coaching. Pretty sure Foden and Grealish have the ability to play central midfield but it would require the team set up to support keeping the ball rather than just defending and Southgate just isn't capable enough to make it happen.