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Insulate Britain Protests (Blackwall Tunnel p22)

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    edited September 2021
    Anyone know iif any of them are causing any disruption today? If so, we will need to leave extra early if so. Hopefully they don't want to disrupt their weekend - or anyone else's!
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    rananegra said:
    Serious amount of what aboutery on here. No change ever happens without disruption. Disruption causes inconvenience. Think of all those poor shop owners whose windows got smashed by the Suffragettes. 
    There is a separate debate to be had about the class privilege of these protestors - if this disruption was being done by a more working class group I can guarantee that the batons would be out and the police would not be holding back. That said,  when the petrol tankers had rolling blockades against Blair, the cops were pretty hands off then too. 
    And anyone who thinks the govt are doing anywhere near enough about climate change has not been paying attention. Yeah, I know China and other places need to do more, but we can only do things where we have some influence. And the only government we can currently influence is the British.
    The suffragettes did a lot worse than just smashing windows!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign
    Suffragettes took action against the refusal of government to change discriminatory laws directly affecting the lives of millions of women.

    Contrast with a specious cause with little support and no logical basis to justify it. Instead objective is to get attention for an entirely different problem not directly within the government’s gift to resolve.

    if argument was for government to spend £x instead of £y on carbon reduction it would at least have a crumb of logic.

    No comparison I’m afraid.


    I think the comparison is not about the cause, but that both groups took illegal action.
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    Cloudworm said:
    Just for clarity as some people seem confused by the objectives of the protesters:

    WE DEMAND 


    1

    That the UK government immediately promises to fully fund and take responsibility for the insulation of all social housing in Britain by 2025;


    2

    That the UK government immediately promises to produce within four months a legally binding national plan to fully fund and take responsibility for the full low-energy and low-carbon whole-house retrofit , with no externalised costs, of all homes in Britain by 2030 as part of a just transition to full decarbonisation of all parts of society and the economy.

    Ah so they want insulation done in "social housing"

    So all the job dodging, benefit claiming protesters yesterday can get their council gaff all warm and toasty for free. 
    Can we establish whether the protestors are middle class hippie drop-outs or scumbags on dole? I can't really tell from this thread, may be they're both?

    (The police's hands' off reaction make it clear even if not everyone here can see it)
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    Policing of ER is more about avoiding negative PR today, so don't be surprised if the police do nothing for ages to end these disruptions quickly. The public will end these soon though. With everyone increasingly aware of what's happening the moment these protesters appear, a quicker response from enough drivers will lead inevitably to a punch-up before the police can arrive in numbers, at which point I suspect the ER organisers will abandon proceedings rapidly. It's not good PR for them when Joe Public turns on them as was shown at Canning Town tub station.
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    Gribbo said:
    rananegra said:
    Serious amount of what aboutery on here. No change ever happens without disruption. Disruption causes inconvenience. Think of all those poor shop owners whose windows got smashed by the Suffragettes. 
    There is a separate debate to be had about the class privilege of these protestors - if this disruption was being done by a more working class group I can guarantee that the batons would be out and the police would not be holding back. That said,  when the petrol tankers had rolling blockades against Blair, the cops were pretty hands off then too. 
    And anyone who thinks the govt are doing anywhere near enough about climate change has not been paying attention. Yeah, I know China and other places need to do more, but we can only do things where we have some influence. And the only government we can currently influence is the British.
    What else can the government do that is achievable in what space of time? So that's achievable in the context of affordability - practicality - effectiveness. 

    Genuine question as I genuinely don't know.


    Fair enough point. In terms of insulation, there needs to be a commitment to it and a lot more done in terms of phasing out gas boilers. Part of the reason for this protest is that the govt say stuff like "we'll insulate homes by such and such a date" and given their record on almost everything, don't believe them. We need as a country to get energy consumption down, getting poorly insulated homes is a quick win. And it is a positive in terms of generating jobs and saving money for the generally poorer people who live in homes like that. 

    On a wider point, elements of the govt clearly get that there is a serious problem and want to do something about it; others want to bask in the glory of global leadership at the Cop-26; while others generally believe that everything is normal and will continue to believe that until the forest fires consume their home. Hence there's no clear leadership. If there was clear leadership, I'd suggest it would look something like:
    a serious commitment to drive down the amount of car usage (rather than get councils to implement Low Traffic Neighbourhoods and then blame the councils for electoral advantage);
    stop opening coal mines and new oil wells;
    invest in public transport;
    invest in renewable energy;
    put serious research into energy storage to even out the peaks and troughs of renewables. 
    no new airports (Boris has history on this one) and making aviation pay the same sort of fuel taxes that road and rail users do (if we are serious about climate change, it shouldn't be cheaper to fly from London to Edinburgh than take the train);
    stop doing preferential trade deals with global environmental pariahs like Australia
    redirect  agricultural subsidies to farms that are less carbon intensive;
    ban the burning of peat so that ecologically impossible numbers of grouse can be supported for shooting


    I'm sure there's a lot I've not thought of or missed out. 


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    Addickted said:
    Cloudworm said:
    Addickted said:
    Well my 35 years working in repair, maintenance and improvement of social housing properties at various levels up to Director of Property and Estates and with multiple construction and management qualifications, including three years specialising in energy saving policies and improving U values across a massive variety of housing stock, both in new build and specifically retro fitting to 'difficult' properties as well as dealing with real social issues relating to them like the massive rise in fuel poverty as well as published papers involved in our managed experiences in the European wide experiences as well as heavily involved as a specialist in fire safety working with the Government on the Post Grenfell issues would suggest your radio expert is talking complete and absolute bollocks.

    Be nice to know exactly what the new Building Regulations regarding compliance across the whole review, testing regimes and completely rewritten Approved Documents are going to be and how they tie up with the revised British Standards.
    Impressive CV. However, these guys also say it's a good idea, albeit ambitious.

    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/architect-groups-back-insulation-campaign-as-78-arrested-at-road-blocks?tkn=1

    As @Gribbo has pointed out, they're already doing it in France.

    Steve Gower, protestor and spokesperson for Insulate Britain:

    "I live in a private rental one-bed flat built 200 years ago. I can't afford food this winter despite using food banks. It's like living in a fridge in winter and an oven in summer. I know what it's like to have to choose between food, rent or fuel".

    Obviously getting a job wouldn't help with being able to afford things. 🤡
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    Rob7Lee said:
    On the actual insulation topic specifically for Landlords.

    Landlords are soon going to have to upgrade their properties to EPC level C or above (2025 for new tenancies, 2028 for existing) assuming it passes through parliament etc. For your average 1920/30's property etc that will mean in most instances internal insulation to walls as well as under floor and potential triple glazing and in some instances new boilers etc. 

    Going to be very interesting how this is dealt with. I'm a trustee of a local branch of a friendly society. We have 53 properties that currently aren't C or above.

    We have the capital to do the work if we wish, however it's probably unlikely we will as it simply won't be cost effective/return on capital to do so and part of the rules is obtaining the best possible return for the society's members. So we are talking next week around selling the properties starting probably early next year, so sadly we'll be ending tenancies over the next 6 years and at least 53 families will have to find a new place to live.

    PS, to make it even more topical all the properties are in Dartford!
    I do understand that the Friendly Societies are set up to obtain the best results for their members.

    But I do feel for the 53 families who'll be told to leave their homes - some of which could struggle to find equivalent family accommodation.
    Or could even be made homeless.


  • Options
    Addickted said:
    Cloudworm said:
    Addickted said:
    Well my 35 years working in repair, maintenance and improvement of social housing properties at various levels up to Director of Property and Estates and with multiple construction and management qualifications, including three years specialising in energy saving policies and improving U values across a massive variety of housing stock, both in new build and specifically retro fitting to 'difficult' properties as well as dealing with real social issues relating to them like the massive rise in fuel poverty as well as published papers involved in our managed experiences in the European wide experiences as well as heavily involved as a specialist in fire safety working with the Government on the Post Grenfell issues would suggest your radio expert is talking complete and absolute bollocks.

    Be nice to know exactly what the new Building Regulations regarding compliance across the whole review, testing regimes and completely rewritten Approved Documents are going to be and how they tie up with the revised British Standards.
    Impressive CV. However, these guys also say it's a good idea, albeit ambitious.

    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/architect-groups-back-insulation-campaign-as-78-arrested-at-road-blocks?tkn=1

    As @Gribbo has pointed out, they're already doing it in France.

    Steve Gower, protestor and spokesperson for Insulate Britain:

    "I live in a private rental one-bed flat built 200 years ago. I can't afford food this winter despite using food banks. It's like living in a fridge in winter and an oven in summer. I know what it's like to have to choose between food, rent or fuel".

    Obviously getting a job wouldn't help with being able to afford things. 🤡
    Do you know he hasn't got a job? Private rents can easily take most of your earnings and a lot of people using food banks or getting benefits are in work. 
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    rananegra said:
    Gribbo said:
    rananegra said:
    Serious amount of what aboutery on here. No change ever happens without disruption. Disruption causes inconvenience. Think of all those poor shop owners whose windows got smashed by the Suffragettes. 
    There is a separate debate to be had about the class privilege of these protestors - if this disruption was being done by a more working class group I can guarantee that the batons would be out and the police would not be holding back. That said,  when the petrol tankers had rolling blockades against Blair, the cops were pretty hands off then too. 
    And anyone who thinks the govt are doing anywhere near enough about climate change has not been paying attention. Yeah, I know China and other places need to do more, but we can only do things where we have some influence. And the only government we can currently influence is the British.
    What else can the government do that is achievable in what space of time? So that's achievable in the context of affordability - practicality - effectiveness. 

    Genuine question as I genuinely don't know.


    Fair enough point. In terms of insulation, there needs to be a commitment to it and a lot more done in terms of phasing out gas boilers. Part of the reason for this protest is that the govt say stuff like "we'll insulate homes by such and such a date" and given their record on almost everything, don't believe them. We need as a country to get energy consumption down, getting poorly insulated homes is a quick win. And it is a positive in terms of generating jobs and saving money for the generally poorer people who live in homes like that. 




    I'm not sure it is, insulating older homes is a major task, sometimes near on impossible especially for rented property (social or otherwise) as often it has to be internal and requires floor removal meaning the tenant has to move out. We've looked into it and for most of ours it's a minimum 6-8 week job. More modern properties you can cavity fill of course.

    But as per my earlier note Landlords (I assume that doesn't exclude local authority) will likely have to raise to an EPC level C by 2025 & 2028 if legislation passes early next year.

    I think there is an element here of 'be careful what you wish for'


  • Options
    rananegra said:
    Cloudworm said:
    Just for clarity as some people seem confused by the objectives of the protesters:

    WE DEMAND 


    1

    That the UK government immediately promises to fully fund and take responsibility for the insulation of all social housing in Britain by 2025;


    2

    That the UK government immediately promises to produce within four months a legally binding national plan to fully fund and take responsibility for the full low-energy and low-carbon whole-house retrofit , with no externalised costs, of all homes in Britain by 2030 as part of a just transition to full decarbonisation of all parts of society and the economy.

    Ah so they want insulation done in "social housing"

    So all the job dodging, benefit claiming protesters yesterday can get their council gaff all warm and toasty for free. 
    Can we establish whether the protestors are middle class hippie drop-outs or scumbags on dole? I can't really tell from this thread, may be they're both?

    (The police's hands' off reaction make it clear even if not everyone here can see it)
    A broad cross-section of society according to news reports. This will be very disappointing for some as it makes it difficult to label them with negative stereotypes which ultimately mean, ‘they’re not like me, so I hate them’.
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    edited September 2021
    Addickted said:
    With regard to the 'French Coup de Pouce Isolation' scheme, which I worked on a pan European scale with the EU back in 2016/2017, the proposed levels from the initial programme were very limited and mainly concerned finance rather than the practicalities of carrying out the work.

    For examples, only insulation works on blocks and apartments are considered if every resident agrees. I've worked on dozens of blocks of between 8 and 110 residents and have been successful at similar agreements. twice. The scheme is also only open to French residents/owners. Are you aware of how much residential property in the UK is owned by non UK nationals?

    In April this year, the scheme became restricted to low to middle income households and with a lower level of assistance and will be abolished from 1st June 2022. All households are eligible, but the level of the grant is subject to means-testing.

    I know for sure that the French general public are not happy with the scheme as so many 'cowboy' insulation firms are turning up, ripping people off and selling their data in spades to the tech firms who live and breathe on this sort of information. And the insulation and installation costs have increased by almost 30% across the Country - amaing what a Government Grant does to 'free enterprise'.

    Oh, and their standards are about 15% lower than the newly recommended requirements for the revised Building Regulations.

    You maybe better researching the Dutch requirements and their proposals, which really do set the benchmark.
    Absolutely spot on. An elderly couple for who I converted a large room into a kitchen / dinner, utility and shower room, applied for the €1 insolation deal and got it. The firm turned up and, instead of firing the insulation under the false floor (in the gaps I cut as stipulated by their surveyor salesman) they sprayed it ontop of the floor, coverng all of their belongings with mulched paper insulation. But the point is, once the salesman was in the door, he then went on to sell them a pellet burner (This couple had 2 log burners and central heating run off a large gas storage tank in the garden. The pellet burner was installed in the easiest place possible, next to a built-in wardrobe in an obscure corner of their bedroom. They didn't need!). They were sold double-glazing, all if which they did have to pay for, which seemed quite expensive (I know this because she asked me if I thought it was trumpy and also said they're paying on finance). Not to mention the 3 sets of brand new French windows / patio doors down the front of their property didn't match. All the windows were left with expanding foam squeezed out.

    And they nicked my crowbar. 

    Whenever the government ad for this deal comes up on my social media, most if the reactions from the French are laughing or angry faces 
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    They're back.......
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    At it again this morning - criminal damage this time as well - all arrested within 22 minutes this time so things are getting better.

    Climate protesters have blocked a junction in Leatherhead on the M25 on Friday morning for the third time in one week.

    Insulate Britain, which is demanding government action on home insulation, stopped traffic at a section of Britain's busiest motorway.

    At 8.38am on Friday the group of 14 walked out into the road carrying banners and blocked cars from moving.

    Enraged motorists got out of their cars to argue with the group.

    Police were on the scene within three minutes of the group’s arrival, one of them holding a video camera. The group said they had called the police shortly before they stepped into the road.

    Two protesters were arrested for criminal damage as members of the group also painted 'IB', for Insulate Britain, on the road in large blue letters. 

    By 9am the whole group had been arrested for conspiracy to cause a public nuisance and moved to the side of the road. The blue paint remained and was picked up on the wheels of some cars as they passed.

    At 9.05am police began to move protesters away to vans. One protester’s backpack was searched as he lay on the floor refusing to move.

    Derek Turner, 64, who was held up at the front of the line, said he had driven from Dorset for a doctor's appointment. "It’s taken two and a half hours to get here and now I’m going to miss it," he said.

    "Look at the pollution they’re causing. I think it’s a waste of time."

    Police clear up after blue paint was spilt on the motorway at junction 9 of the M25 in Leatherhead after climate change protesters
    Police clear up after blue paint was spilt on the motorway at junction 9 of the M25 in Leatherhead after climate change protesters painted 'IB' on the road CREDIT: Peter Macdiarmid/London News Pictures Ltd

    All 14 protesters that blocked the junction in Leatherhead on the M25 on Friday morning were also arrested on Monday and Wednesday.

    By 9.40am all protesters had been searched and loaded into vans. One member of the group was carried by police after refusing to walk.

    After initially allowing traffic through police closed the same slip road earlier blocked by protesters as workers tried to clean the blue paint off the road.

    On Wednesday, climate protesters from the same group targeted three stretches of the M25 and adjoining slip roads in a coordinated demonstration at just after 8am, causing traffic chaos during the rush hour. 

    Motorists attempt to move activists as protesters from the Insulate Britain protest group block a major roundabout near the Dartford crossing and M25 on September 15
    Motorists attempt to move activists as protesters from the Insulate Britain protest group block a major roundabout near the Dartford crossing and M25 on September 15 CREDIT: Guy Smallman/Getty Images

    At one scene, furious motorists tried to take the law into their own hands and drag away protesters glued to the tarmac but were physically prevented from doing so by police officers. 

    Eighty-nine protesters were arrested following Wednesday's action but warned police prior to their release from custody that they intended to "return to sit on a highway at the earliest opportunity".

    Many of those arrested on Wednesday had been involved in the motorway blockade on Monday.

    In footage passed to The Telegraph, a Metropolitan Police officer can be seen allowing protesters to walk in front of cars and take their places at junction 25 on the M25 where they sat down and blocked the road.

    Placeholder image for youtube video eWvLbSTDFOo

    On Thursday, Priti Patel told police to take "decisive action" against climate change activists as the video footage emerged showing officers facilitating the motorway protests that caused major traffic disruption.

    The Home Secretary condemned the traffic chaos caused by the guerilla tactics of Insulate Britain, a splinter group of Extinction Rebellion, as "completely unacceptable", as they blocked off motorway junctions at rush hour three times this week.

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    edited September 2021
    Where? No problems M25 anti-clockwise M3 junction to J7 although J9 was closed. M23 OK, so far
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    seth plum said:
    The the word is people could massively help the environment if they stopped eating animals and fish.
    So we should superglue a cow and a trout to the m25?
    Already tried - didn't work. That said, they missed a trick with no trout.

    M25 traffic held at Godstone after 35 cows escape from farm onto  carriageway - Surrey Live
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    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Laughable.

    Have you actually read this thread?
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    Wowza, look at all them heads being cracked in.
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    Addickted said:
    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Laughable.

    Have you actually read this thread?
    Yeah, and there are some good points in here surrounded by people who want blood spilt and think a little delay is more important than the climate emergency and so what is your point then? 
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    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    But some bloke missed his hair replacement appointment, mate. It was in The Telegraph.
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    Rothko said:
    Addickted said:
    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Laughable.

    Have you actually read this thread?
    Yeah, and there are some good points in here surrounded by people who want blood spilt and think a little delay is more important than the climate emergency and so what is your point then? 
    But what are these protests doing with regards to the climate emergency?

    EVERYONE KNOWS THERES A PROBLEM, BUT THIS MORNING, THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO GO TO WORK!
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    edited September 2021
    Cloudworm said:
    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    But some bloke missed his hair replacement appointment, mate. It was in The Telegraph.
    Weird, I copied and pasted from the Telegraph, and it was about a bloke missing his doctors appointment - no mention of hair replacement. You must have misread...
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    edited September 2021
    Cloudworm said:
    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    But some bloke missed his hair replacement appointment, mate. It was in The Telegraph.
    Just replacing his roof insulation as requested.
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    Rothko said:
    Addickted said:
    Rothko said:
    Oh no people were delayed again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Laughable.

    Have you actually read this thread?
    Yeah, and there are some good points in here surrounded by people who want blood spilt and think a little delay is more important than the climate emergency and so what is your point then? 
    How about commenting on the 'good points' then rather than focussing few posts that - I assume jokingly want 'blood spilt'?

    I think todays response by the Police was far more appropriate and what a lot of posters were complaining about rather than them steaming in and 'cracking skulls'.
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    Why are these protesters always gammons?
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    Rothko said:
    Oh no people missed their chemo appointments again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Edited for you Rothers
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    Rothko said:
    Oh no people missed their chemo appointments again, lucky the planet is all fine and dandy 
    Edited for you Rothers
    Cool Daily Mail trope, well done you 
This discussion has been closed.

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