Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.

Insulate Britain Protests (Blackwall Tunnel p22)

1222325272836

Comments

  • seth plum said:
    4Real said:
    seth plum said:
    If there is gridlock in central London, like one caused by black cab drivers in the past, the ripple effect of the congestion flows back through many streets.
    Not everybody trying to get through to, for example St Thomases, are going to be in an ambulance.
    The cabbies have the power to bring central London to a standstill, and these foolish protestors have today the power to bring the Blackwall tunnel to a standstill.
    Who are you excusing or apologising for now ?

    I’m what sense have my posts excused or apologised for anything?
    "The Tory party conference would be a better target.

    The protests today are helping the reactionary hang em and flog em wing of the Tories, and distracting people from issues like the end of the Universal Credit uplift."

    ----------------------------

    So the protests are right but in the wrong place - apologist.
  • edited October 2021
    "A lot of this now is down to the practicalities.
    I don’t think the authorities are able to prevent these actions, so all that is left is reaction.
    The debate is probably about how to react.
    These protestors are completely wrong in what they are doing, yet ultimately it is for the right reasons.
    That is going to mean quite a supply of people prepared to be martyrs for their cause.
    I imagine we will enter a race between gathering intelligence and attempting prevention, and the numbers willing to continue to protest."

    --------------------------

    So the protests are completely wrong....yet ultimately right - excused.
  • 4Real said:
    seth plum said:
    4Real said:
    seth plum said:
    If there is gridlock in central London, like one caused by black cab drivers in the past, the ripple effect of the congestion flows back through many streets.
    Not everybody trying to get through to, for example St Thomases, are going to be in an ambulance.
    The cabbies have the power to bring central London to a standstill, and these foolish protestors have today the power to bring the Blackwall tunnel to a standstill.
    Who are you excusing or apologising for now ?

    I’m what sense have my posts excused or apologised for anything?
    "The Tory party conference would be a better target.

    The protests today are helping the reactionary hang em and flog em wing of the Tories, and distracting people from issues like the end of the Universal Credit uplift."

    ----------------------------

    So the protests are right but in the wrong place - apologist.
    If you read this thread it was at 10.39 am that @golfaddick wrote 

    Well, if they are not seeking public support & are truly wanting the Government to take notice then why protest on the South & North circulars (I heard the Hanger Lane giratory has been targeted today as well) when they could easily go to Manchester where the CONSERVATIVE PARTY CONFERENCE is taking place. That would have a bigger impact AND more media coverage. I bet you the first item on all UK mainstream news today will be about the Tory conference and therefore protesting there would get a much wider audience.

    At 10.46 I wrote that I agree.

    Nothing to do with being an apologist whatsoever, or excusing anything for that matter.
  • Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    Well said

    As is so often the caser, ire is misdirected onto those trying to help people 
  • cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    Again, we'll said...
  • If their so concerned about the planet why don't they go to China where pollution is churning out on a greater scale than motorists over here.  They can park their back sides directly outside the state council in Beijing. I'm sure the peoples red army will make sure they are looked after and accept their protests. 
    Probably because they live in England.  
    Precisely,  anyone else but this country probably would not tolerate this week after week. 
    We don’t tolerate it, they get moved and  arrested as soon as the OB turn up. 
  • cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    Again, we'll said...
    Not all of us.

    😉 
  • cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    Funny, because in some parts of the world , like Japan & China, population growth is not enough & soon there will be too many old people retiring & not enough young people still in work ......meaning their economies are going to suffer. 

    And by the way.....I doubt a little bit of loft insulation is going to counteract the major pollution that is going on in the US, China and India  !
    Jakarta is worse than any of those you’ve mentioned!🥵
  • Can they not be shredded and put in with the asphalt as a wonderful new road is laid through a beauty spot?

    A fitting tribute for any eco-mentalist.
  • Sponsored links:


  • Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    Well said

    As is so often the caser, ire is misdirected onto those trying to help people 
    How does this help though? All it does is aggravate people. If it gets them to think of "the cause" at all it's in strictly negative terms. 
  • Population growth does matter. I'm on my phone and can't post the link  but have a look at the website for  'Population Matters'. David Attenborough is the Patron of the organisation and is someone whose views are respected throughout the world. We cannot continue with the current trajectory.
  • Population growth does matter. I'm on my phone and can't post the link  but have a look at the website for  'Population Matters'. David Attenborough is the Patron of the organisation and is someone whose views are respected throughout the world. We cannot continue with the current trajectory.
    You can posts the link. Just copy and paste it. 
  • These people should be truly responsible for their actions.  

    As they stick themselves across the roads and junctions, the police should take photographic evidence and collect names and addresses.  That way traders could take out legal action for any loss of business. 

    God forbid if a life is lost or damaged through their action they could take personal responsibility for that too by having their names dragged through the courts and made to pay compensation where appropriate.  

    This would be in keeping with police force policies - as much of their work nowadays  is off-loaded to legal departments and insurance companies anyway.
  • cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
  • I look at the knock on from a tunnel being closed at Dartford today because of an accident, and the disruption is a million times worse than any of the Isolation Britain protests round here, many more hospital appointments lost at DVH today, compared with what happened a fortnight ago. 

    I suspect IB is losing the room a bit now, with supportive people as well, so probably time for a bit of a rethink on tactics.
  • Population growth does matter. I'm on my phone and can't post the link  but have a look at the website for  'Population Matters'. David Attenborough is the Patron of the organisation and is someone whose views are respected throughout the world. We cannot continue with the current trajectory.
    You can posts the link. Just copy and paste it. 
    I don't know how to do that.
  • cafcfan said:
    cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
    They key to this though is ending poverty. As poverty rates fall birth rates reduce as people make other life choices. The average number of children in a family falls as well. There is significant research that shows the best way to reduce population growth (not reduce population) is to pull people out of poverty. This alone wont save the planet but tackling the consumption side as well as forcing large corporations to be better will also help.

    I still feel there is a technological solution to this that hasnt yet been found. We need to fund R&D properly in order to survive. 
  • edited October 2021
    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1444967088448282625?s=21

    Apologies for the effing and jeffing, but you can see what happens when people have just about had enough.
  • edited October 2021
    Ops wrong thread….
  • Sponsored links:


  • Population growth does matter. I'm on my phone and can't post the link  but have a look at the website for  'Population Matters'. David Attenborough is the Patron of the organisation and is someone whose views are respected throughout the world. We cannot continue with the current trajectory.
    You can posts the link. Just copy and paste it. 
    I don't know how to do that.

    Https://populationmatters.org


  • cafcfan said:
    cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
    They key to this though is ending poverty. As poverty rates fall birth rates reduce as people make other life choices. The average number of children in a family falls as well. There is significant research that shows the best way to reduce population growth (not reduce population) is to pull people out of poverty. This alone wont save the planet but tackling the consumption side as well as forcing large corporations to be better will also help.

    I still feel there is a technological solution to this that hasnt yet been found. We need to fund R&D properly in order to survive. 
    The key as far as I understand it, is actually educating girls / women - a key driver in reducing both poverty and population growth.
  • https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1444967088448282625?s=21

    Apologies for the effing and jeffing, but you can see what happens when people have just about had enough.
    This is just the start,people have had it with these pricks,there will very soon be punches thrown,and people getting run down ,personally if any of these twats get seriously hurt,I could not give a toss.
  • I read somewhere that they are hoping to be jailed when the COP26 conference is on in order to try and embarrass Boris.

    I think we should grant them their wish. 
    I hope the imprisoned men drop the soap and become someone’s prison wife
  • cafcfan said:
    cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
    They key to this though is ending poverty. As poverty rates fall birth rates reduce as people make other life choices. The average number of children in a family falls as well. There is significant research that shows the best way to reduce population growth (not reduce population) is to pull people out of poverty. This alone wont save the planet but tackling the consumption side as well as forcing large corporations to be better will also help.

    I still feel there is a technological solution to this that hasnt yet been found. We need to fund R&D properly in order to survive. 
    The key as far as I understand it, is actually educating girls / women - a key driver in reducing both poverty and population growth.
    What about educating boys/men too? 
  • cafcfan said:
    cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
    They key to this though is ending poverty. As poverty rates fall birth rates reduce as people make other life choices. The average number of children in a family falls as well. There is significant research that shows the best way to reduce population growth (not reduce population) is to pull people out of poverty. This alone wont save the planet but tackling the consumption side as well as forcing large corporations to be better will also help.

    I still feel there is a technological solution to this that hasnt yet been found. We need to fund R&D properly in order to survive. 
    The key as far as I understand it, is actually educating girls / women - a key driver in reducing both poverty and population growth.
    What about educating boys/men too? 
    Good luck with that one.
  • Addickted said:
    cafcfan said:
    cafcfan said:
    Just my humble view but I really do find it disheartening at all of the disdain, animosity and hate that is poured on these protesters when it really should be directed at the corporations that cause 70% of global emissions or the unsustainable capitalist system that necessitates constant economic growth. If more people directed their energy at the cause of these protests rather than the symptoms then it’s possible that protests like this wouldn’t be needed. We have to realise that there is no planet B and all of our lives, and those of our children and grandchildren will be threatened if we ( and it is a ‘we’ situation) don’t collectively do something. It’s easy to piss and moan but much harder to change.
    But that is the crux of the matter. All the while people perceive vehicle pollution, global warming, loss of biodiversity, species extinction, etc, etc to be the problem, the real issue is being almost totally ignored.

    It is little to do with corporations or "the unsustainable capitalist system". Frankly, there are just TOO MANY FUCKING (literally) PEOPLE. Until we get population expansion under control we are merely papering over the cracks. If only Greta Thunberg's parents had taken my lead, done their bit for the planet and not produced any offspring:.  The world would already be one small step closer to safety.

    Get this sorted or we are all going to hell in a hand cart. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
    There is enough to go around for everyone, overpopulation is a myth. The vast majority of emissions are done by a tiny majority of people. Richer nations on average produce far far far more carbon emissions than poorer nations, even if they are more populous. 

    What needs to happen is less is consumed in the richer nations. I hate it so much that people think the issue is overpopulation rather than overconsumption, seems on the edge of racism/white supremacy to me 
    I think you are wrong and to suggest my comment was racist is purile. The whole point is that if population growth continues at anything like the current rate there will be insufficient food and water for the people least likely to be able to cope with those problems.  As others have mentioned noble charities like Population Matters are hoping to redress the balance before we all kill ourselves by uncontrolled breeding.
    They key to this though is ending poverty. As poverty rates fall birth rates reduce as people make other life choices. The average number of children in a family falls as well. There is significant research that shows the best way to reduce population growth (not reduce population) is to pull people out of poverty. This alone wont save the planet but tackling the consumption side as well as forcing large corporations to be better will also help.

    I still feel there is a technological solution to this that hasnt yet been found. We need to fund R&D properly in order to survive. 
    The key as far as I understand it, is actually educating girls / women - a key driver in reducing both poverty and population growth.
    What about educating boys/men too? 
    Good luck with that one.
    TBH good luck with educating the girls/women too. 
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!