I sang shit songs as a youth and older. I have invaded pitches. Especially when they gave Arsenal the Arthur Wait and it was raining at Selhurst. And have always accepted swearing and horrible goading of the opposition as part of the package. As for the homophobic abuse I don’t understand the uproar. Get over it, the people singing it are pissed and don’t mean it or are idiots to be pitied. My 2 gay daughters wouldn’t give a shit.
the McCarthyite witch hunt of anyone who doesn’t fit the current template (which by the way I agree with is the right way to be) annoys me.
I do not agree with what you say but will defend with my life your right to say it. I reckon
There was a Policeman in the away end openly videoing our fans - I couldn’t believe how stupid some of the people around me were openly chanting homophobic abuse, and abuse at their goalkeeper, and the Policeman simply stood there and filmed them - they could see he was filming them, but carried on - idiots
Sounds like Lordflashheart heard homophobic chanting from the Charlton end , maybe that’s why some assumed it was Charlton fans amazingly enough . Sad times whatever pricks behaved like this .
Certainly did, and also shouts at their goalkeeper suggesting he was sexually abused by his father when he was a little boy - I mean, call him out saying he is crap keeper etc, but the sexual abuse shouts were plain wrong - unfortunately, such a small away end, that was sold out, coupled with the fact I had a decent standing position where I could see (I’m not the tallest) mean’t I couldn’t move - and before anyone says ‘why didn’t you say anything’, having looked at those saying it, I wasn’t going to get beaten up by pissed up yobs (which having assessed matters, I decided would likely happen)
Interesting to see where you draw the line on what is and isn’t acceptable in a football stadium. Shouting at someone that they’re crap at their profession is abuse, so why do you think that’s acceptable?
For the record, I’m not saying it isn’t acceptable - I’m not offended by football chants (especially on someone else’s behalf), but it is interesting to see that some versions of abuse are horrifying and others are fine.
So, you are saying - for example - if the Palace keeper made that howler he did against Millwall against us, we can’t ridicule him because it might upset him !!!
It’s part and parcel of football - if we are going down the route of treating everything as abuse on a level playing field e.g. homophobic abuse is as bad as ridiculing the oppo keeper (for example) for a complete howler of an error, then the world is going mad
Thing is Seth, I can’t believe for one minute that if you or I piped up & confronted these eejits (70yr old male, 52yr old female) & they tried to larrup us, that others wouldn’t come to our aid?
Or have I watched too many Marvel movies? 🤷♀️
So as a 52 year old woman you want to call the abuse out and if it comes on top me to help you out?
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
A sad day when that disappears from football. That’s not the same a the vitriolic stuff we sometimes witness now.
Not a great experience yesterday apart from the pub in Charlton Kings before the game. We had a drunken prat next to us who kept up a tirade of loud, foul-mouthed abuse throughout the game in front of some puzzled-looking young children playing by the corner flag.
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
I remember that game too, as I recall there was nothing homophobic or of that nature and he was playing up and responding too it.
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
I remember that game too, as I recall there was nothing homophobic or of that nature and he was playing up and responding too it.
I remember a chant of ‘spunky’ directed at him, and he turned around and laughed, and shouted ‘can’t you think up something original’ and we all laughed - in fairness, it wasn’t original, and he probably heard it at every match he played in
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
I remember that game too, as I recall there was nothing homophobic or of that nature and he was playing up and responding too it.
I remember a chant of ‘spunky’ directed at him, and he turned around and laughed, and shouted ‘can’t you think up something original’ and we all laughed - in fairness, it wasn’t original, and he probably heard it at every match he played in
In a game between Seaman and Shirtliff, I don't think it's the former England goalkeeper who would be the more likely to attract moronic homophobic abuse based on their surnames.
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
I remember that game too, as I recall there was nothing homophobic or of that nature and he was playing up and responding too it.
I remember a chant of ‘spunky’ directed at him, and he turned around and laughed, and shouted ‘can’t you think up something original’ and we all laughed - in fairness, it wasn’t original, and he probably heard it at every match he played in
In a game between Seaman and Shirtliff, I don't think it's the former England goalkeeper who would be the more likely to attract moronic homophobic abuse based on their surnames.
Very true - hadn’t thought of that - when Shirtliff was playing for us, all my non Charlton supporting mates would call him Shirtlifter
And in a similar vein, I remember QPR away in the 80’s when David Seaman was their goalkeeper, when he was in front of the away end, there was endless mickey taking by us about his surname, he just laughed and played along - he had the last laugh, as they beat us (88/89 season - Littlewoods Cup, we were leading, then Shirtliff got sent off, Trevor Francis brought himself on and scored both their goals to win it) - at the end of the game Seaman applauded us, and gave us a wink of his eye
I remember that game too, as I recall there was nothing homophobic or of that nature and he was playing up and responding too it.
I remember a chant of ‘spunky’ directed at him, and he turned around and laughed, and shouted ‘can’t you think up something original’ and we all laughed - in fairness, it wasn’t original, and he probably heard it at every match he played in
In a game between Seaman and Shirtliff, I don't think it's the former England goalkeeper who would be the more likely to attract moronic homophobic abuse based on their surnames.
Very true - hadn’t thought of that - when Shirtliff was playing for us, all my non Charlton supporting mates would call him Shirtlifter
Thing is Seth, I can’t believe for one minute that if you or I piped up & confronted these eejits (70yr old male, 52yr old female) & they tried to larrup us, that others wouldn’t come to our aid?
Or have I watched too many Marvel movies? 🤷♀️
So as a 52 year old woman you want to call the abuse out and if it comes on top me to help you out?
No. I wouldn’t want you to. I would be taking that decision upon myself. If you decided to stand by & watch it unfold if it went pear shaped, that’s up to you & your conscience. 🤷♀️
Amazes me that whenever this sort of thing happens it's never, ever within in earshot of the "well, I would have said something" type of people.
As I say above, I wasn’t prepared to get thumped, and having looked at the group who were chanting, my judgement was that I probably would have got thumped + to the Stewards / Police it would look like I was fighting, whereas I would have only been defending myself - that would have meant being thrown out and possibly arrested, which for a 51 year old who has never been in trouble, wouldn’t be great, and could have implications in terms of my job, which I have worked very hard over 35 years to get to where I am
Amazes me that whenever this sort of thing happens it's never, ever within in earshot of the "well, I would have said something" type of people.
As I say above, I wasn’t prepared to get thumped, and having looked at the group who were chanting, my judgement was that I probably would have got thumped + to the Stewards / Police it would look like I was fighting, whereas I would have only been defending myself - that would have meant being thrown out and possibly arrested, which for a 51 year old who has never been in trouble, wouldn’t be great, and could have implications in terms of my job, which I have worked very hard over 35 years to get to where I am
Simple as that
I agree with you.
I meant that whenever someone hears this sort of thing you always get "I would have said something to them" or "Why didn't you confront them?", it just never seems to happen in front of those people who "would definitely have said something". Guess the point I was making is that it's very easy to say you would have done if you're not the one witnessing it.
Two people have since said they have seen it and challenged it, so I stand corrected but I have never seen anyone do it.
Amazes me that whenever this sort of thing happens it's never, ever within in earshot of the "well, I would have said something" type of people.
As I say above, I wasn’t prepared to get thumped, and having looked at the group who were chanting, my judgement was that I probably would have got thumped + to the Stewards / Police it would look like I was fighting, whereas I would have only been defending myself - that would have meant being thrown out and possibly arrested, which for a 51 year old who has never been in trouble, wouldn’t be great, and could have implications in terms of my job, which I have worked very hard over 35 years to get to where I am
Simple as that
I agree with you.
I meant that whenever someone hears this sort of thing you always get "I would have said something to them" or "Why didn't you confront them?", it just never seems to happen in front of those people who "would definitely have said something". Guess the point I was making is that it's very easy to say you would have done if you're not the one witnessing it.
Two people have since said they have seen it and challenged it, so I stand corrected but I have never seen anyone do it.
Quite a few years ago, my late Father called out someone in the West Stand (yes, the West Stand !!) who was shouting racist abuse during matches - Dad would have been mid 60’s years old at the time - the bloke turned around and told him to F off, and if he carried he would see Dad outside the ground afterwards - Dad obviously didn’t ‘meet’ him after the game, but made a note of where he sat, and when the bloke left the match, Dad went over and made a note of row and seat number - he then wrote to the club, and the bloke wasn’t seen again - the Club refused to discuss it further with Dad, but he could only surmise that the bloke had had his season ticket taken off him
These days I imagine the Club would get the Police involved, but different times back then (it was during Prem days)
Amazes me that whenever this sort of thing happens it's never, ever within in earshot of the "well, I would have said something" type of people.
As I say above, I wasn’t prepared to get thumped, and having looked at the group who were chanting, my judgement was that I probably would have got thumped + to the Stewards / Police it would look like I was fighting, whereas I would have only been defending myself - that would have meant being thrown out and possibly arrested, which for a 51 year old who has never been in trouble, wouldn’t be great, and could have implications in terms of my job, which I have worked very hard over 35 years to get to where I am
Simple as that
I agree with you.
I meant that whenever someone hears this sort of thing you always get "I would have said something to them" or "Why didn't you confront them?", it just never seems to happen in front of those people who "would definitely have said something". Guess the point I was making is that it's very easy to say you would have done if you're not the one witnessing it.
Two people have since said they have seen it and challenged it, so I stand corrected but I have never seen anyone do it.
Quite a few years ago, my late Father called out someone in the West Stand (yes, the West Stand !!) who was shouting racist abuse during matches - Dad would have been mid 60’s years old at the time - the bloke turned around and told him to F off, and if he carried he would see Dad outside the ground afterwards - Dad obviously didn’t ‘meet’ him after the game, but made a note of where he sat, and when the bloke left the match, Dad went over and made a note of row and seat number - he then wrote to the club, and the bloke wasn’t seen again - the Club refused to discuss it further with Dad, but he could only surmise that the bloke had had his season ticket taken off him
These days I imagine the Club would get the Police involved, but different times back then (it was during Prem days)
Probably still waiting in Macros car park :- )
Seriously, well done your dad.
I've called people out but there have been other times I've decided discretion was the better part of valour (bottled it) because I'm not trained in armed and unarmed combat like @KBslittlesis
Years ago at reading, mid nineties, almost the entire away end was singing “morely takes it up the arse” at Trevor Morley after the rumours that him and Ian Bishop had been caught in bed together
Amazes me that whenever this sort of thing happens it's never, ever within in earshot of the "well, I would have said something" type of people.
As I say above, I wasn’t prepared to get thumped, and having looked at the group who were chanting, my judgement was that I probably would have got thumped + to the Stewards / Police it would look like I was fighting, whereas I would have only been defending myself - that would have meant being thrown out and possibly arrested, which for a 51 year old who has never been in trouble, wouldn’t be great, and could have implications in terms of my job, which I have worked very hard over 35 years to get to where I am
Simple as that
I agree with you.
I meant that whenever someone hears this sort of thing you always get "I would have said something to them" or "Why didn't you confront them?", it just never seems to happen in front of those people who "would definitely have said something". Guess the point I was making is that it's very easy to say you would have done if you're not the one witnessing it.
Two people have since said they have seen it and challenged it, so I stand corrected but I have never seen anyone do it.
Quite a few years ago, my late Father called out someone in the West Stand (yes, the West Stand !!) who was shouting racist abuse during matches - Dad would have been mid 60’s years old at the time - the bloke turned around and told him to F off, and if he carried he would see Dad outside the ground afterwards - Dad obviously didn’t ‘meet’ him after the game, but made a note of where he sat, and when the bloke left the match, Dad went over and made a note of row and seat number - he then wrote to the club, and the bloke wasn’t seen again - the Club refused to discuss it further with Dad, but he could only surmise that the bloke had had his season ticket taken off him
These days I imagine the Club would get the Police involved, but different times back then (it was during Prem days)
Probably still waiting in Macros car park :- )
Seriously, well done your dad.
I've called people out but there have been other times I've decided discretion was the better part of valour (bottled it) because I'm not trained in armed and unarmed combat like @KBslittlesis
A completely sensible and proportionate approach in my book. If anyone thinks that by direct intervention you can stop the abuse and stop it going further do so, however if your gut feeling tells you there is a risk of escalating the situation to an extent it might become violent then it is also fine to report it quietly instead. We all have our own limits on what level of confrontation we can comfortably take on. The key for me is we don’t allow it to just go unchallenged either directly or indirectly and therefore allowed to happen more widely
So, the three arrested were backing the other side.
Three fans were arrested for homophobic abuse. These specific three were not Charlton fans but very easily could be and next time might be. Idiots like this are found at the Valley too.
While (I think) we can all agree that abusing someone for their race or sexual orientation is not at all welcome, there is also the reality that "when wine sinks, words swim" and the contents of the heart becomes clear to all when people are drunk. A football ground is a place where many are intoxicated and things aren't pleasant to hear and see. Sometimes really obnoxious.
But banning people from anything should always be an absolute last resort. There is also a danger that we just want to create a very middle class, polite, nice all seated comfy event where everyone knows the social rules of polite society when it's a working class sport for working men and women often people with crap lives, dire working conditions and "the game" on Saturday was always this outlet for working class people to come together and get a release. . This is not an appeal for people to be allowed to abuse others with impunity but it is an appeal to all those woke "tolerant" individuals to be tolerant of ALL people. Not just the ones that are currently in vogue.
To ban someone who is obnoxiously rude does nothing to change the behaviours you don't like. In my experience, obnoxiously rude people are like that because of being around obnoxiously rude people all their lives. They have had awful lives. Surely accepting and involving such people (two things obnoxious people have possibly rarely experienced in their lives) who are obnoxiously rude may go a long way to changing their unwelcome behaviours.
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
We shouldn't forget the larger numbers who think that Addams Family song is clever or acceptable. Singing about incest at a football match is a step closer to it than the fans it's sung to.
Is posting about incest on a football forum any different? I can think of plenty of instances on this site relating to incest comments when people from Norwich and Ipswich are mentioned. All the inter breeding comments get posted including the number of fingers and toes they have.
I never see outrage around this, just plenty of LOLS being earned by approving posters.
While (I think) we can all agree that abusing someone for their race or sexual orientation is not at all welcome, there is also the reality that "when wine sinks, words swim" and the contents of the heart becomes clear to all when people are drunk. A football ground is a place where many are intoxicated and things aren't pleasant to hear and see. Sometimes really obnoxious.
But banning people from anything should always be an absolute last resort. There is also a danger that we just want to create a very middle class, polite, nice all seated comfy event where everyone knows the social rules of polite society when it's a working class sport for working men and women often people with crap lives, dire working conditions and "the game" on Saturday was always this outlet for working class people to come together and get a release. . This is not an appeal for people to be allowed to abuse others with impunity but it is an appeal to all those woke "tolerant" individuals to be tolerant of ALL people. Not just the ones that are currently in vogue.
To ban someone who is obnoxiously rude does nothing to change the behaviours you don't like. In my experience, obnoxiously rude people are like that because of being around obnoxiously rude people all their lives. They have had awful lives. Surely accepting and involving such people (two things obnoxious people have possibly rarely experienced in their lives) who are obnoxiously rude may go a long way to changing their unwelcome behaviours.
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
"Woke" indeed.
WmT:
All sounds very good. But the question is WHO are the intolerant here?
1. Are they ~ People demanding the banning of people who say obnoxious things at football matches when they are drunk ~ banning sounds pretty intolerant to me.
Or are they ~ people who say obnoxious things when they are drunk at football matches to various people they feel like abusing?
It sounds like there is A LOT of intolerance going on everywhere in this age.
I agree with your last point ~ we should indeed defend a tolerant society. And that starts with how much tolerance is in ME. For all persons we are found left wanting in this area of tolerating others.
While (I think) we can all agree that abusing someone for their race or sexual orientation is not at all welcome, there is also the reality that "when wine sinks, words swim" and the contents of the heart becomes clear to all when people are drunk. A football ground is a place where many are intoxicated and things aren't pleasant to hear and see. Sometimes really obnoxious.
But banning people from anything should always be an absolute last resort. There is also a danger that we just want to create a very middle class, polite, nice all seated comfy event where everyone knows the social rules of polite society when it's a working class sport for working men and women often people with crap lives, dire working conditions and "the game" on Saturday was always this outlet for working class people to come together and get a release. . This is not an appeal for people to be allowed to abuse others with impunity but it is an appeal to all those woke "tolerant" individuals to be tolerant of ALL people. Not just the ones that are currently in vogue.
To ban someone who is obnoxiously rude does nothing to change the behaviours you don't like. In my experience, obnoxiously rude people are like that because of being around obnoxiously rude people all their lives. They have had awful lives. Surely accepting and involving such people (two things obnoxious people have possibly rarely experienced in their lives) who are obnoxiously rude may go a long way to changing their unwelcome behaviours.
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
"Woke" indeed.
WmT:
All sounds very good. But the question is WHO are the intolerant here?
1. Are they ~ People demanding the banning of people who say obnoxious things at football matches when they are drunk ~ banning sounds pretty intolerant to me.
Or are they ~ people who say obnoxious things when they are drunk at football matches to various people they feel like abusing?
It sounds like there is A LOT of intolerance going on everywhere in this age.
I agree with your last point ~ we should indeed defend a tolerant society. And that starts with how much tolerance is in ME. For all persons we are found left wanting in this area of tolerating others.
So alcohol is the get out of jail free card, is it?
1. Banning people who say unlawful things - yes. 2. Alcohol is not an excuse for unlawful behaviour - no court in the land would accept that defence.
Comments
I wouldn’t want you to.
I would be taking that decision upon myself.
If you decided to stand by & watch it unfold if it went pear shaped, that’s up to you & your conscience.
🤷♀️
Simple as that
I meant that whenever someone hears this sort of thing you always get "I would have said something to them" or "Why didn't you confront them?", it just never seems to happen in front of those people who "would definitely have said something". Guess the point I was making is that it's very easy to say you would have done if you're not the one witnessing it.
Two people have since said they have seen it and challenged it, so I stand corrected but I have never seen anyone do it.
These days I imagine the Club would get the Police involved, but different times back then (it was during Prem days)
Seriously, well done your dad.
I've called people out but there have been other times I've decided discretion was the better part of valour (bottled it) because I'm not trained in armed and unarmed combat like @KBslittlesis
Three fans were arrested for homophobic abuse. These specific three were not Charlton fans but very easily could be and next time might be. Idiots like this are found at the Valley too.
"Woke" indeed.
I never see outrage around this, just plenty of LOLS being earned by approving posters.
1. Banning people who say unlawful things - yes.
2. Alcohol is not an excuse for unlawful behaviour - no court in the land would accept that defence.