Was watching Question Time the other night. Can't quite remember the context, but an older fella on there used the phrase "it's woke gone mad" (or words to that effect). Of course, what he failed to grasp is that being woke is a really good thing and not a pejorative term.
Anyway, the quite brilliant Jess Phillips (Shadow Minister for Domestic Violence and Safeguarding) was on the panel and her reply to him was: "why is it so difficult just to be nice and civil to people?"
There truly are some nasty creatures out there in everyday life. But hey, it's just 'bants' (that awfully lazy and moronic term that is used to mask ignorance and prejudice, and underpin a lack of intelligence).
Impact, not intent.
I don't think the gentleman in question "failed to grasp" anything. You clearly did.
And being "civil" and "nice" ( as if being "nice" was a virtue. Yuk!) are not words I would immediately think of when thinking of woke people (pejorative intended) Intolerant, angry, hostile, disingenuous, fake, wolf-in-sheeps-clothing, virtue signalling, insincere, cruel,hypocritical, deluded, vicious.
I agree that in the battle woke Vs non woke extremes are always used/straw man arguments etc to make a point and so no point is ever really successfully made on either side.
For what it's worth and without employing one of these aforesaid extremes to make a point ...
One of the things about woke that many see through now is that it is a "new religion" that is, woke with its creed and commandments and virtue-signalling and of course ~ excommunication aka "cancel culture". Rules of who to tolerate and those to demonise. Having successfully binned organised religion they have simply started their own one! " The Church of Woke". Unfortunately there is no Salvation on offer here.
They have their heretics, they have the ever changing witch hunts ~ feminist, demon fan herself JK Rowling once the queen of such ideologies is now being burned at the stake for having the "wrong" view on Trans issues. And on it goes. It won't stop there. The far-left never does. It attacks everyone in sight ~ (find a "victim" and attack the "perceived" perpetrator.) those that are not "civil" or "nice", and then it attacks itself. And implodes.
Woke will be no different. And for that ...I thank God.
Colours to the mast there. I reckon I could pretty much nail which papers you read, which radio stations you listen to, how you vote, what you think of Brexit, Sadique Khan, Lewis Hamilton and Gary Lineker all from that one post.
As could be said of yourself.
Having read all that it’s clear that the world has gone completely bonkers.
It definitely wasn’t just 1 or 2 Charlton fans who were chanting abuse. We
were a row or two in front of and to the side of the drummer and there were 30-40
or more around us churning out abuse for most of the game. The abuse wasn’t
just directed at Cheltenham players. As much, if not more, was directed at the
Charlton players, particularly in the second half. The only ones that seemed to
escape were Mason Burstow and Chuks Aneke plus Johnnie Jackson and Jason Euell.
A number of players on both sides were called ‘paedo’,’
poof’ and were said to ‘take it up the a*se’. Whether that was specifically intended
to be homophobic or was just moronic is a moot point. Either way, it happened
loud and clear. On the plus side I didn't hear any racist comments.
The most common term shouted was probably ‘f*cking
sh*t c*nt’, which applied to at least 8 Charlton starting players plus all the
subs, the Cheltenham players (especially their goalkeeper), supporters and the
match officials.
If you want some January transfer rumours - Famewo was
told to f*ck off back to Norwich, Blackett-Taylor to f*ck off back to Tranmere,
Leko to f*ck off back to Birmingham. At one point Elliot Lee was serenaded as
the White Pele at another he was told to f*ck off back to Luton.
The @CAFCofficial Twitter account said “A big thank
you to the 1,519 travelling Addicks for keeping us going until the end this
afternoon. Immense as always.”. They clearly didn’t hear what was being chanted.
A lot of noise but certainly not encouragement.
How
widespread the abuse was amongst the Charlton fans is hard for me to tell as I
couldn’t hear beyond my immediate surroundings. I may have been unlucky to be
in the area with the moronic element.
Have you ever considered going to watch Fulham or Reading or even lawn bowls?
I think you’d enjoy it a lot more.
You're right @Belv. I certainly would consider going to watch Fulham. To watch Charlton play at Fulham that is because it would mean that we had managed to get out of League One. It would mean we were in the Championship or, the way Fulham are going at the moment, possibly the Premier League. I would enjoy that a lot more than a poor performance at Cheltenham. Reading may be on next season's fixture list anyway, given they are only one place above the drop zone.
I do fail to see how abusing our own players helps them. Earlier in the season Elliot Lee said "It's the first song I've ever had about me in football, it gave me goosebumps and tingles down my spine.". So clearly the players hear what is being chanted. I wonder what being told to f*ck off back to Luton did for him. Or what being called a paedo did for Akin Famewo's game?
It definitely wasn’t just 1 or 2 Charlton fans who were chanting abuse. We
were a row or two in front of and to the side of the drummer and there were 30-40
or more around us churning out abuse for most of the game. The abuse wasn’t
just directed at Cheltenham players. As much, if not more, was directed at the
Charlton players, particularly in the second half. The only ones that seemed to
escape were Mason Burstow and Chuks Aneke plus Johnnie Jackson and Jason Euell.
A number of players on both sides were called ‘paedo’,’
poof’ and were said to ‘take it up the a*se’. Whether that was specifically intended
to be homophobic or was just moronic is a moot point. Either way, it happened
loud and clear. On the plus side I didn't hear any racist comments.
The most common term shouted was probably ‘f*cking
sh*t c*nt’, which applied to at least 8 Charlton starting players plus all the
subs, the Cheltenham players (especially their goalkeeper), supporters and the
match officials.
If you want some January transfer rumours - Famewo was
told to f*ck off back to Norwich, Blackett-Taylor to f*ck off back to Tranmere,
Leko to f*ck off back to Birmingham. At one point Elliot Lee was serenaded as
the White Pele at another he was told to f*ck off back to Luton.
The @CAFCofficial Twitter account said “A big thank
you to the 1,519 travelling Addicks for keeping us going until the end this
afternoon. Immense as always.”. They clearly didn’t hear what was being chanted.
A lot of noise but certainly not encouragement.
How
widespread the abuse was amongst the Charlton fans is hard for me to tell as I
couldn’t hear beyond my immediate surroundings. I may have been unlucky to be
in the area with the moronic element.
Have you ever considered going to watch Fulham or Reading or even lawn bowls?
I think you’d enjoy it a lot more.
Have you ever considered thinking before speaking? I think we’d enjoy that more 🙄
It definitely wasn’t just 1 or 2 Charlton fans who were chanting abuse. We
were a row or two in front of and to the side of the drummer and there were 30-40
or more around us churning out abuse for most of the game. The abuse wasn’t
just directed at Cheltenham players. As much, if not more, was directed at the
Charlton players, particularly in the second half. The only ones that seemed to
escape were Mason Burstow and Chuks Aneke plus Johnnie Jackson and Jason Euell.
A number of players on both sides were called ‘paedo’,’
poof’ and were said to ‘take it up the a*se’. Whether that was specifically intended
to be homophobic or was just moronic is a moot point. Either way, it happened
loud and clear. On the plus side I didn't hear any racist comments.
The most common term shouted was probably ‘f*cking
sh*t c*nt’, which applied to at least 8 Charlton starting players plus all the
subs, the Cheltenham players (especially their goalkeeper), supporters and the
match officials.
If you want some January transfer rumours - Famewo was
told to f*ck off back to Norwich, Blackett-Taylor to f*ck off back to Tranmere,
Leko to f*ck off back to Birmingham. At one point Elliot Lee was serenaded as
the White Pele at another he was told to f*ck off back to Luton.
The @CAFCofficial Twitter account said “A big thank
you to the 1,519 travelling Addicks for keeping us going until the end this
afternoon. Immense as always.”. They clearly didn’t hear what was being chanted.
A lot of noise but certainly not encouragement.
How
widespread the abuse was amongst the Charlton fans is hard for me to tell as I
couldn’t hear beyond my immediate surroundings. I may have been unlucky to be
in the area with the moronic element.
Have you ever considered going to watch Fulham or Reading or even lawn bowls?
I think you’d enjoy it a lot more.
Have you ever considered thinking before speaking? I think we’d enjoy that more 🙄
With the greatest of respect, I probably won’t take any advice regarding thinking before speaking from someone who spends most of their time calling any fellow fan they disagree with an eejit or condemning fans without any evidence to back it up.
I was at the game yesterday and fwiw didn't hear any homophobic abuse. I think football attracts people from all different walks of life and that's one of the elements I enjoy. I get we have some idiots but no more than any other team. I've been to all the home games and 80% of away games this year and to be honest have yet to hear any racist or homophobic chants/abuse from any fans. Chanting creates the atmosphere, the Addams family chant is not to my taste being honest but I think Banning it because it's distasteful is probably OTT.
When you think about it, it's about as distasteful as you can get and i'd quite happily never hear it again.
Not to distract from the OP but Lineker and Richards on MOTD this morning thought the mispronunciation Idah's name was great fun. Casual racism?
I think we're both on the same page that it's distasteful. I feel we diverge on the best way to tackle it. In my opinion it doesn't need tackling. It is what it is.
I'm not a Lineker fanboy but I think he is probably one of the last people you could label a 'casual racist' The chap has offered to house Cross Channel Asylum Seekers, supports a lot of the kick it out stuff and in my humble opinion as a white 40 something would appear to be an all inclusive type of guy.
For me if you go out to find something that offends you'll always find it.
40 - something, lol. He was playing against us when I was 13. I am now 49.
Woke simply means anti racist, there is nothing wrong with that, and plenty right.
No, it doesnt "simply mean anti racist". The meaning of words can evolve and change over time.
I agree that the meaning of words can evolve and change over time. However linguistic analysis is certainly not ‘just semantics’, nor is it simply a matter of checking a dictionary. It may well turn out that the meaning of certain words in the end are down to the person using them. For example I know the word ‘gammon’ is used, but to me it has no discernible meaning, however to me ‘woke’ means anti racist, and by association being ‘anti-woke’ means being pro racist.
I can assure you being "anti woke" doesn't mean "pro-racist". Not at all.
It would imply that people of colour invented half of what is now deemed woke. They didn't. It was white middle class self-hating, anti-patriotic, anti-christian antifa sick and twisted individuals, whose primary targets are anyone Conservative, anyone white that doesn't follow their rabid nonsense and all of the white poor. Being anti-woke is to be anti the aforesaid group of people . It is certainly not an indicator of anything else.
And further indicator that Anti-woke cannot possibly mean "pro-racist" is that, and this is especially happening in North America, many black Conservatives and/or black Christians simply don't identify with woke narratives. And they are given tonnes of abuse from these so called "anti-racists".
So we have a situation where woke people are abusing people of colour! I'm delighted to see that more and more people each day are seeing through all the BS.
And further indicator that Anti-woke cannot possibly mean "pro-racist" is that, and this is especially happening in North America, many black Conservatives and/or black Christians simply don't identify with woke narratives. And they are given tonnes of abuse from these so called "anti-racists".
So we have a situation where woke people are abusing people of colour! I'm delighted to see that more and more people each day are seeing through all the BS.
The fact that you see ‘woke’ as a tangible demographic rather than an abstract sentiment shows how much BS from the right wing media you have swallowed.
Woke simply means anti racist, there is nothing wrong with that, and plenty right.
No, it doesnt "simply mean anti racist". The meaning of words can evolve and change over time.
I agree that the meaning of words can evolve and change over time. However linguistic analysis is certainly not ‘just semantics’, nor is it simply a matter of checking a dictionary. It may well turn out that the meaning of certain words in the end are down to the person using them. For example I know the word ‘gammon’ is used, but to me it has no discernible meaning, however to me ‘woke’ means anti racist, and by association being ‘anti-woke’ means being pro racist.
I can assure you being "anti woke" doesn't mean "pro-racist". Not at all.
It would imply that people of colour invented half of what is now deemed woke. They didn't. It was white middle class self-hating, anti-patriotic, anti-christian antifa sick and twisted individuals, whose primary targets are anyone Conservative, anyone white that doesn't follow their rabid nonsense and all of the white poor. Being anti-woke is to be anti the aforesaid group of people . It is certainly not an indicator of anything else.
And further indicator that Anti-woke cannot possibly mean "pro-racist" is that, and this is especially happening in North America, many black Conservatives and/or black Christians simply don't identify with woke narratives. And they are given tonnes of abuse from these so called "anti-racists".
So we have a situation where woke people are abusing people of colour! I'm delighted to see that more and more people each day are seeing through all the BS.
The fact that you see ‘woke’ as a tangible demographic rather than an abstract sentiment shows how much BS from the right wing media you have swallowed.
What is an "abstract sentiment"?
Surely Antifa are not having a PR makeover and looking to come across as abstract and sentimental?
I don't actually watch a great deal of media/TV tbh. And this is the only forum (as my first love is CAFC) I have ever posted in believe it or not!
I read a fair bit and talk about current affairs with people with very differing viewpoints. Not necessarily ones that I share. I sometimes chuckle when some of you hit me with this "I bet I know all the right wing progs and newspapers he reads".
I have never thought of myself as "right wing"!! But I agree, placed in front of Antifa loons I am guilty as charged. For the whole world is right wing in their dimly lit eyes.
I can assure you being "anti woke" doesn't mean "pro-racist". Not at all.
It would imply that people of colour invented half of what is now deemed woke. They didn't. It was white middle class self-hating, anti-patriotic, anti-christian antifa sick and twisted individuals, whose primary targets are anyone Conservative, anyone white that doesn't follow their rabid nonsense and all of the white poor. Being anti-woke is to be anti the aforesaid group of people . It is certainly not an indicator of anything else.
I can assure you being "anti woke" doesn't mean "pro-racist". Not at all.
It would imply that people of colour invented half of what is now deemed woke. They didn't. It was white middle class self-hating, anti-patriotic, anti-christian antifa sick and twisted individuals, whose primary targets are anyone Conservative, anyone white that doesn't follow their rabid nonsense and all of the white poor. Being anti-woke is to be anti the aforesaid group of people . It is certainly not an indicator of anything else.
I have never thought of myself as "right wing"!!
I was many years ago but only on a Sunday morning over Danson Park or Hall Place
I disagree with the words about woke written above. It is not a catch all term in my opinion, but woke simply means anti racist. Those who promote a war on woke promote a war on anti racists, which to my mind makes the war on woke folk want racism to run free and dominate.
I suggest that some people might like to research the linguistic analysis branch of Philosophy.
I disagree with the words about woke written above. It is not a catch all term in my opinion, but woke simply means anti racist. Those who promote a war on woke promote a war on anti racists, which to my mind makes the war on woke folk want racism to run free and dominate.
I suggest that some people might like to research the linguistic analysis branch of Philosophy.
Don't expect a surge in demand for that one, Seth.
I agree that the origin of the word came out of the civil rights movement in the US - now using it to reflect all prejudice isn't a bad thing, is it?
I disagree with the words about woke written above. It is not a catch all term in my opinion, but woke simply means anti racist. Those who promote a war on woke promote a war on anti racists, which to my mind makes the war on woke folk want racism to run free and dominate.
I suggest that some people might like to research the linguistic analysis branch of Philosophy.
Don't expect a surge in demand for that one, Seth.
I agree that the origin of the word came out of the civil rights movement in the US - now using it to reflect all prejudice isn't a bad thing, is it?
It was part of my degree. On the one hand being introduced into exploring ‘what do we mean by what we say’ has ruined my life, because I find it difficult to walk on past words like ‘professional’ or ‘patriotic’ or ‘obviously’ or ‘need’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘woke’ and others without wanting to explore the agency of the term…such thinking slows one down. On the other hand not waving through certain terms without coming to a personal view about what they mean has helped my thought processes. The good news is that I have learned that others have no more or just as much right to define terms on the hoof as I have.
It definitely wasn’t just 1 or 2 Charlton fans who were chanting abuse. We
were a row or two in front of and to the side of the drummer and there were 30-40
or more around us churning out abuse for most of the game. The abuse wasn’t
just directed at Cheltenham players. As much, if not more, was directed at the
Charlton players, particularly in the second half. The only ones that seemed to
escape were Mason Burstow and Chuks Aneke plus Johnnie Jackson and Jason Euell.
A number of players on both sides were called ‘paedo’,’
poof’ and were said to ‘take it up the a*se’. Whether that was specifically intended
to be homophobic or was just moronic is a moot point. Either way, it happened
loud and clear. On the plus side I didn't hear any racist comments.
The most common term shouted was probably ‘f*cking
sh*t c*nt’, which applied to at least 8 Charlton starting players plus all the
subs, the Cheltenham players (especially their goalkeeper), supporters and the
match officials.
If you want some January transfer rumours - Famewo was
told to f*ck off back to Norwich, Blackett-Taylor to f*ck off back to Tranmere,
Leko to f*ck off back to Birmingham. At one point Elliot Lee was serenaded as
the White Pele at another he was told to f*ck off back to Luton.
The @CAFCofficial Twitter account said “A big thank
you to the 1,519 travelling Addicks for keeping us going until the end this
afternoon. Immense as always.”. They clearly didn’t hear what was being chanted.
A lot of noise but certainly not encouragement.
How
widespread the abuse was amongst the Charlton fans is hard for me to tell as I
couldn’t hear beyond my immediate surroundings. I may have been unlucky to be
in the area with the moronic element.
Have you ever considered going to watch Fulham or Reading or even lawn bowls?
I think you’d enjoy it a lot more.
Have you ever considered thinking before speaking? I think we’d enjoy that more 🙄
With the greatest of respect, I probably won’t take any advice regarding thinking before speaking from someone who spends most of their time calling any fellow fan they disagree with an eejit or condemning fans without any evidence to back it up.
Your call. But if you’re looking for evidence it’s clearly there unfortunately, you just choose to ignore your fellow fan & advise them to go and support another team.
Ahhh Charlton fans claiming Charlton fans did something, that turns out Charlton fans didn't do something, but Charlton fans have done something previously, which has caused Charlton fans to begin arguing with Charlton fans about what Charlton fans did and what other Charlton fans think of those Charlton fans and whether those Charlton fans would do it again.
Ahhh Charlton fans claiming Charlton fans did something, that turns out Charlton fans didn't do something, but Charlton fans have done something previously, which has caused Charlton fans to begin arguing with Charlton fans about what Charlton fans did and what other Charlton fans think of those Charlton fans and whether those Charlton fans would do it again.
Classic Charlton Life.
So you haven’t actually read all the thread then? No Charlton fans were arrested. But sadly there is evidence that Charlton fans were involved not only in homophobic abuse but missile throwing. Now, you may find that amusing, and think I’m just picking on fellow fans. But I honestly think this is awful & I don’t want any part of it tbh.
And further indicator that Anti-woke cannot possibly mean "pro-racist" is that, and this is especially happening in North America, many black Conservatives and/or black Christians simply don't identify with woke narratives. And they are given tonnes of abuse from these so called "anti-racists".
So we have a situation where woke people are abusing people of colour! I'm delighted to see that more and more people each day are seeing through all the BS.
The fact that you see ‘woke’ as a tangible demographic rather than an abstract sentiment shows how much BS from the right wing media you have swallowed.
What is an "abstract sentiment"?
Surely Antifa are not having a PR makeover and looking to come across as abstract and sentimental?
I don't actually watch a great deal of media/TV tbh. And this is the only forum (as my first love is CAFC) I have ever posted in believe it or not!
I read a fair bit and talk about current affairs with people with very differing viewpoints. Not necessarily ones that I share. I sometimes chuckle when some of you hit me with this "I bet I know all the right wing progs and newspapers he reads".
I have never thought of myself as "right wing"!! But I agree, placed in front of Antifa loons I am guilty as charged. For the whole world is right wing in their dimly lit eyes.
I have always considered myself to be somewhat right wing, you sir, are about as right wing as it comes.
Confirmed to Mick Everett, the Charlton Head of Match Day Operations by Cheltenham police that the three arrested for homophobic abuse were Cheltenham fans not Charlton fans.
There were 3 ejections of Charlton fans , 2 for alcohol related and 1 for failing to comply.
That is really good news.
No, it's really not.
How is homophobic abuse good news?
Jesus Christ…
Well, I don’t think Henners has ever turned water into wine 🤔
I don't think Jesus ran a museum either, and I'm sure he also got more promotes
I'm not saying Henry and Jesus are related but At Bromley Addicks back in the day, I saw Henry feed 75 people with one fish and 20 chips.
14 chips surely?
14 chips are never enough Ali; for Jesus, Henry or the masses at the Valley
Life continues to evolve, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.
At Brighton v Cafc, we had two matches where we drew 0-0 (Hamer, worldie save) and 2-2 ( Igor 2 goals, Albion with a slam Dunk goal late on)
Now I believe it was the 0-0 game some Cafc fans were singing "we can see you holding hands" I did notice a gay Charlton fan was singing as well.
The following season when the chant started up, not by many as it was getting more publicity a couple of Cafc fans were nabbed by the stewards/police after the passe song started to be chanted.
Being straight, I don't know if all gay folk were offended by that. I would imagine many found it amusing while others were deeply offended.
Any comments from our gay fans would be appreciated as your voice interests me more than straight folk on this subject.
The caveat is I always found "we can see you holding hands" crass.
Life continues to evolve, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.
At Brighton v Cafc, we had two matches where we drew 0-0 (Hamer, worldie save) and 2-2 ( Igor 2 goals, Albion with a slam Dunk goal late on)
Now I believe it was the 0-0 game some Cafc fans were singing "we can see you holding hands" I did notice a gay Charlton fan was singing as well.
The following season when the chant started up, not by many as it was getting more publicity a couple of Cafc fans were nabbed by the stewards/police after the passe song started to be chanted.
Being straight, I don't know if all gay folk were offended by that. I would imagine many found it amusing while others were deeply offended.
Any comments from our gay fans would be appreciated as your voice interests me more than straight folk.
The caveat is I always found "we can see you holding hands" crass.
Well I still think that one of our best chants is ‘does your Butler know you’re here’ aimed at Fulham fans - however I suspect someone on here will take offence with that chant as well !!!
Comments
I think we’d enjoy that more 🙄
It would imply that people of colour invented half of what is now deemed woke. They didn't. It was white middle class self-hating, anti-patriotic, anti-christian antifa sick and twisted individuals, whose primary targets are anyone Conservative, anyone white that doesn't follow their rabid nonsense and all of the white poor. Being anti-woke is to be anti the aforesaid group of people . It is certainly not an indicator of anything else.
So we have a situation where woke people are abusing people of colour! I'm delighted to see that more and more people each day are seeing through all the BS.
Surely Antifa are not having a PR makeover and looking to come across as abstract and sentimental?
I don't actually watch a great deal of media/TV tbh. And this is the only forum (as my first love is CAFC) I have ever posted in believe it or not!
I read a fair bit and talk about current affairs with people with very differing viewpoints. Not necessarily ones that I share. I sometimes chuckle when some of you hit me with this "I bet I know all the right wing progs and newspapers he reads".
I have never thought of myself as "right wing"!! But I agree, placed in front of Antifa loons I am guilty as charged. For the whole world is right wing in their dimly lit eyes.
I have never thought of myself as "right wing"!!
Those who promote a war on woke promote a war on anti racists, which to my mind makes the war on woke folk want racism to run free and dominate.
On the one hand being introduced into exploring ‘what do we mean by what we say’ has ruined my life, because I find it difficult to walk on past words like ‘professional’ or ‘patriotic’ or ‘obviously’ or ‘need’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘woke’ and others without wanting to explore the agency of the term…such thinking slows one down.
On the other hand not waving through certain terms without coming to a personal view about what they mean has helped my thought processes.
The good news is that I have learned that others have no more or just as much right to define terms on the hoof as I have.
But if you’re looking for evidence it’s clearly there unfortunately, you just choose to ignore your fellow fan & advise them to go and support another team.
But as I say, your call 🤷♀️
Classic Charlton Life.
No Charlton fans were arrested.
But sadly there is evidence that Charlton fans were involved not only in homophobic abuse but missile throwing.
Now, you may find that amusing, and think I’m just picking on fellow fans.
But I honestly think this is awful & I don’t want any part of it tbh.
Anti Christian, ffs.
14 chips are never enough Ali; for Jesus, Henry or the masses at the Valley
Let's get serious.
Life continues to evolve, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.
At Brighton v Cafc, we had two matches where we drew 0-0 (Hamer, worldie save)
and 2-2 ( Igor 2 goals, Albion with a slam Dunk goal late on)
Now I believe it was the 0-0 game some Cafc fans were singing "we can see you holding hands" I did notice a gay Charlton fan was singing as well.
The following season when the chant started up, not by many as it was getting more publicity a couple of Cafc fans were nabbed by the stewards/police after the passe song started to be chanted.
Being straight, I don't know if all gay folk were offended by that. I would imagine many found it amusing while others were deeply offended.
Any comments from our gay fans would be appreciated as your voice interests me more than straight folk on this subject.
The caveat is I always found "we can see you holding hands" crass.