To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
I have also heard it said that calling out criminality by certain groups because the accusers don’t want to be called racists has happened. Do you really believe that? I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers. Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
"A damning report by the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) found child sexual exploitation continues in all parts of England and Wales, a decade after it became a national scandal.
The report said children were being abused “in the most degrading and destructive ways” amid “extensive failures by local authorities and police forces”.
John O’Brien, secretary to the inquiry, called for a “cultural change” to ensure that child sexual exploitation can be understood and prevented.
“We need to break the culture where people are worried that they might be accused of being racist just because they record factual information,”
Nb - This is my example of how I see "woke", I'm not comparing white / black / Asian people, Im just offering one example of "woke culture" as I see it. Totally accept these crimes are perpetrated by other people, but the point with these particular cases is that nothing was done for so long.
The government withheld much if the findings, but what they deemed to be "in the public interest" is out there if you care to look
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
I have also heard it said that calling out criminality by certain groups because the accusers don’t want to be called racists has happened. Do you really believe that? I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers. Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
"A damning report by the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) found child sexual exploitation continues in all parts of England and Wales, a decade after it became a national scandal.
The report said children were being abused “in the most degrading and destructive ways” amid “extensive failures by local authorities and police forces”.
John O’Brien, secretary to the inquiry, called for a “cultural change” to ensure that child sexual exploitation can be understood and prevented.
“We need to break the culture where people are worried that they might be accused of being racist just because they record factual information,”
Nb - This is my example of how I see "woke", I'm not comparing white / black / Asian people, Im just offering one example of "woke culture" as I see it. Totally accept these crimes are perpetrated by other people, but the point with these particular cases is that nothing was done for so long.
The government withheld much if the findings, but what they deemed to be "in the public interest" is out there if you care to look
I haven't heard much in the way of outrage towards the perpetrators of these terrible widespread crimes or a single word of sympathy for the tragic victims of this widespread and dare I say it, 'institutionalised' criminal activity. One doesn't hear the last of it when other groups are perceived to be treated even with the most moderate disregard. How very strange this age we live in. Full of hypocrisy.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
Again, you’ve not been silenced, or cancelled. It’s simply been pointed out your opinions are sexist and if put into place would be illegal.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Ok, where to start?
Apart from the fact this is a rambling mess, it’s not even making any clear points.
Are you just saying women ought to stay at home and look after the kids? Is that it? Or are you saying more broadly that men and women have specific roles and we should all just get on board with that? I don’t even see any relevance to Rebecca Welch and her ability to referee men’s football. I simply don’t understand where you’re coming from. Then there’s the fact that you pretty much opened with ‘I know women, so I can’t be sexist’. I mean, bloody hell.
You know what? I’m not even going to debate that. It’s your approach to debate that gets me. The thing is, your tactic in both this discussion and the religion discussion has been to cry foul when people criticise you and move your goalposts to deflect any of that criticism, while lashing out, attacking and attempting to mock a perceived aggressor using terms like ‘woke’ or ‘liberal’ (which have somehow been popularised as pejoratives) all the while showing minimal understanding of their points or the wider arguments being made.
In both discussions, you’ve locked into your position and refused to budge even an inch, even in the face of compelling evidence, persuasive reasoning and factual corrections. You don’t give the impression of being someone able to debate effectively because your method of debate relies entirely on your point of view being made while refusing to accept or even hear others.
Debate is supposed to encourage people to take other views onboard and adjust their own position accordingly. For example, this thread has made me think about the fact that there are people who consider the traditional ‘working husband, housewife, 2.4 kids’ family unit to be more important in modern life than, say, gender equality. (I’m paraphrasing. I know that’s not exactly what you’ve said, but presumably you and/or others might say yes, that’s what you think.) You’re entitled to that view. I disagree with it, but I at least am able to concede that some might see your view, I’m able to consider the merits of the argument, and I’m able to understand your view without calling you a name (that doesn’t mean what I think it means), or criticising anyone who disagrees for ‘playing to the gallery’, (The irony being that just by saying this, you’re effectively posturing, saying “Look at me! Look how worthy I am!”) In any debate, I read or listen to opposing views and I’m willing to be persuaded by them - (if you look back on my posting history on here, you’ll probably find quite a few occasions where I said “Ah, ok. Fair point.” or similar. Conceding a point doesn’t mean you’ve ‘lost’ or that you’re stupid. It actually demonstrates an ability to listen, learn and grow.) The trouble is, you just don’t make any persuasive arguments. Name calling, spiteful scattergun attacks and making uninformed, outdated and thoughtless points don’t cut it, I’m afraid. I have no doubt that you are passionate about the views you hold. You made that clear in the religion discussion. That’s fine - passion is not a bad thing. But you can’t treat a debate like a lecture (yes, I appreciate the irony! 😉). If you want to convince people of your argument, you need to be willing to listen to the opposite view, digest it and apply that view to your thinking. You could accept, partially accept or utterly reject those views, that’s your right, but you have to at least consider those arguments and adjust your position accordingly.
All I see coming from you is shouting while sticking your fingers in your ears. You need to do better than that.
LR: There's a tonne of misappropriations and some misquotes in this but there is a lot of good in it too and I'd be inclined to focus on the good. While I would have disagree on your position you should be applauded for at least considering a variety of positions in any given argument. So props to you.
It may come as a surprise to you (if you don't read my postings in a variety of different discussions) but I DO take on-board other arguments. I never shout. And I never swear or abuse another contributor and, unlike a shoal of others on here, I never blaspheme or respond to the many who DO do all these things endlessly. I don't care about "winning the argument". I am confident in my beliefs and confident in the position I may take in a discussion. Not because I am a "troll" which seems to be the word for anyone who challenges a certain viewpoint I see. But because I believe what I am saying. And I am comfortable with it being held up to scrutiny. Even mocked and derided. I can take it! When we know something to be True, there is no fear or insecurity. It is when we ARENT sure and our argument is rather empty and not very well thought out that we are on shaky ground and one starts the we hominim attacks and in the case of some ~ inventing "quotes" and then strawmanning me.. So, at the very least, well done for advancing beyond that here.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
Again, you’ve not been silenced, or cancelled. It’s simply been pointed out your opinions are sexist and if put into place would be illegal.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You quite clearly do not live in the real world.
I'm sure there are both men and women who would love to spend all day looking after their children, but the reality is that for most people, both parents need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children. Others choose to work as they enjoy it and lead more fulfilled lives by working. Everyone should do what is right for them and the view that the woman's place is in the home is outdated and abhorrent.
Your views on the role of women are archaic and have no place in the 21st century.
Yes, I would tend to agree with you ME14 - both parents DO '... need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children'. The point is, I believe that that NEED to be wrong. Wrong for those parents. Definitely wrong for their children and wrong for society.
I believe as a society we should not be making this sort of demand on parents. If you can point out how children, arguably with MORE complex needs than ever before, have less and less parent time, somehow helps society and builds up this nation to be stronger and makes families stay together and by extension - the community and the nation - I'd be really interested to hear about this. I see the polar opposite taking place. Everywhere.
Simply do not think that the family is should be at the centre of everything. Children need to go to school and be looked after in groups together while their parents are sometimes absent doing other things..
The traditional family unit as we know it is an artificial invention of the industrial age enabling efficiency in factories.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
It’s not a ‘difference of opinion’ it’s a matter of law ffs.
You want to stop a ‘woman’ carrying out her job because of her sex.
I cannot nor will I accept your opinion on this as it’s criminal.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Ok, where to start?
Apart from the fact this is a rambling mess, it’s not even making any clear points.
Are you just saying women ought to stay at home and look after the kids? Is that it? Or are you saying more broadly that men and women have specific roles and we should all just get on board with that? I don’t even see any relevance to Rebecca Welch and her ability to referee men’s football. I simply don’t understand where you’re coming from. Then there’s the fact that you pretty much opened with ‘I know women, so I can’t be sexist’. I mean, bloody hell.
You know what? I’m not even going to debate that. It’s your approach to debate that gets me. The thing is, your tactic in both this discussion and the religion discussion has been to cry foul when people criticise you and move your goalposts to deflect any of that criticism, while lashing out, attacking and attempting to mock a perceived aggressor using terms like ‘woke’ or ‘liberal’ (which have somehow been popularised as pejoratives) all the while showing minimal understanding of their points or the wider arguments being made.
In both discussions, you’ve locked into your position and refused to budge even an inch, even in the face of compelling evidence, persuasive reasoning and factual corrections. You don’t give the impression of being someone able to debate effectively because your method of debate relies entirely on your point of view being made while refusing to accept or even hear others.
Debate is supposed to encourage people to take other views onboard and adjust their own position accordingly. For example, this thread has made me think about the fact that there are people who consider the traditional ‘working husband, housewife, 2.4 kids’ family unit to be more important in modern life than, say, gender equality. (I’m paraphrasing. I know that’s not exactly what you’ve said, but presumably you and/or others might say yes, that’s what you think.) You’re entitled to that view. I disagree with it, but I at least am able to concede that some might see your view, I’m able to consider the merits of the argument, and I’m able to understand your view without calling you a name (that doesn’t mean what I think it means), or criticising anyone who disagrees for ‘playing to the gallery’, (The irony being that just by saying this, you’re effectively posturing, saying “Look at me! Look how worthy I am!”) In any debate, I read or listen to opposing views and I’m willing to be persuaded by them - (if you look back on my posting history on here, you’ll probably find quite a few occasions where I said “Ah, ok. Fair point.” or similar. Conceding a point doesn’t mean you’ve ‘lost’ or that you’re stupid. It actually demonstrates an ability to listen, learn and grow.) The trouble is, you just don’t make any persuasive arguments. Name calling, spiteful scattergun attacks and making uninformed, outdated and thoughtless points don’t cut it, I’m afraid. I have no doubt that you are passionate about the views you hold. You made that clear in the religion discussion. That’s fine - passion is not a bad thing. But you can’t treat a debate like a lecture (yes, I appreciate the irony! 😉). If you want to convince people of your argument, you need to be willing to listen to the opposite view, digest it and apply that view to your thinking. You could accept, partially accept or utterly reject those views, that’s your right, but you have to at least consider those arguments and adjust your position accordingly.
All I see coming from you is shouting while sticking your fingers in your ears. You need to do better than that.
LR: There's a tonne of misappropriations and some misquotes in this but there is a lot of good in it too and I'd be inclined to focus on the good. While I would have disagree on your position you should be applauded for at least considering a variety of positions in any given argument. So props to you.
It may come as a surprise to you (if you don't read my postings in a variety of different discussions) but I DO take on-board other arguments. I never shout. And I never swear or abuse another contributor and, unlike a shoal of others on here, I never blaspheme or respond to the many who DO do all these things endlessly. I don't care about "winning the argument". I am confident in my beliefs and confident in the position I may take in a discussion. Not because I am a "troll" which seems to be the word for anyone who challenges a certain viewpoint I see. But because I believe what I am saying. And I am comfortable with it being held up to scrutiny. Even mocked and derided. I can take it! When we know something to be True, there is no fear or insecurity. It is when we ARENT sure and our argument is rather empty and not very well thought out that we are on shaky ground and one starts the we hominim attacks and in the case of some ~ inventing "quotes" and then strawmanning me.. So, at the very least, well done for advancing beyond that here.
You are just a tedious predicable troll. Lifers should just ignore you - I’m sure anyone who knows you in real life already does!
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
It’s not a ‘difference of opinion’ it’s a matter of law ffs.
You want to stop a ‘woman’ carrying out her job because of her sex.
I cannot nor will I accept your opinion on this as it’s criminal.
Now cancel that you sexist cretin.
Steady on - as a girlie are you allowed to voice an opinion like that?
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
It’s not a ‘difference of opinion’ it’s a matter of law ffs.
You want to stop a ‘woman’ carrying out her job because of her sex.
I cannot nor will I accept your opinion on this as it’s criminal.
Now cancel that you sexist cretin.
I am not disputing what has or hasn't been enshrined in law. But to not be permitted to even have an opinion on something ~ even if it be enshrined in law ~ is not what I call freedom. It's called tyranny.
Gordon tries to duck out of this tension by saying that it’s permissible for an unmarried woman to work beyond the domestic sphere, but this undermines her argument that women are by nature designed for housewifery: “feminine virtues are narrowly tailored, by nature, for homemaking,” she writes.
@ValleyofTears did you recommend the book as an antithesis of your beliefs or in support of your bigotry?I would guess the latter and as @SELR_addicks says, it says it all about what you are.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You quite clearly do not live in the real world.
I'm sure there are both men and women who would love to spend all day looking after their children, but the reality is that for most people, both parents need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children. Others choose to work as they enjoy it and lead more fulfilled lives by working. Everyone should do what is right for them and the view that the woman's place is in the home is outdated and abhorrent.
Your views on the role of women are archaic and have no place in the 21st century.
Yes, I would tend to agree with you ME14 - both parents DO '... need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children'. The point is, I believe that that NEED to be wrong. Wrong for those parents. Definitely wrong for their children and wrong for society.
I believe as a society we should not be making this sort of demand on parents. If you can point out how children, arguably with MORE complex needs than ever before, have less and less parent time, somehow helps society and builds up this nation to be stronger and makes families stay together and by extension - the community and the nation - I'd be really interested to hear about this. I see the polar opposite taking place. Everywhere.
Simply do not think that the family is should be at the centre of everything. Children need to go to school and be looked after in groups together while their parents are sometimes absent doing other things..
The traditional family unit as we know it is an artificial invention of the industrial age enabling efficiency in factories.
I couldn't differ more. I wonder how many, say, Indian heritage families you know, resident in UK? They seem to "get" family values and traditional families very well. What is completely artificial is the current configuration of the family as progressives see it. It doesn't work.
Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner, particularly in London.
And although you say you don’t abuse posters on here you certainly insult them.
You have the closed mind of a fanatic, unfortunately.
As stated earlier JS ~ I agree!!! Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner.
The point I am making is not that this isnt happening and necessary to meet the cost of living in 2022. My point is ... it isn't actually good for family, marriages, the community and society. We KNOW what IS good for family marriages community and society and we have thrown it away.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Change can be good.
LR: To respond to your overriding positon ~ If one's starting point on every issue is ~ Hey, there's a perceived inequality, quick everyone let's destroy the perceived cause and perpetuator of it and then we can all live in some Lennonesque Imagine utopia. Then I would have to agree your position on things is wholly understandable.
But I generally find "Inequality Hunters" tend to be very selective when including in their "portfolio of inequalities" various inequalities that don't really support their underlying biases. We soon discover it isn't the principle of fighting inequality and social inustices (see Gribbo's fine point on an enormous social injustice of our time) that is the driving force in such persons but rather the implementation of a world view completely at loggerheads with what is true and right. But let us set this aside for now.
If I were to share the approach "how dare you stop someone from doing something they enjoy and are competent to execute you "***-ist pig" I would be denying a broader picture (and there IS a broader picture) and would therefore be disingenuous and not living what I believe to be true.
All this disagreement really is about how we "frame" things. I don't want to demand that you frame things my way. I am just sharing how and why I frame things the way I do. That is all.
My starting point in this issue is what I believe to be best for a family, community and society. And faith does indeed inform that starting point. I fully take on-board that others don't see things that way and rather choose to make, as their starting point (and in many cases ~ end point too) in any argument "injustice" or as pointed out "some injustices".
If this very able sounding referee, to whom we refer, say, works Monday - Friday full time as does her husband, (it has been noted on this thread that both husband and wife MUST work to meet the cost of living now ~ I agree they do but believe it is not good for the family) and their children see barely any of them during the week, would I see that, for "equality's sake" , this mother (and it's Mothering Sunday today so a good time to mention this!) Should be encouraged to deprive her children of EVEN MORE vital parenting ~ at weekends ~ for the sake of simply being able to do something as well as a man (refereeing) I would say an emphatic "NO"!
You however would, I suspect, take the position that to hell with the needs of the children or family or, dare I even whisper it - the husband ... King in all of this is that a certain political agenda is furthered at all costs.
I believe that this MO is bad for children, bad for families, bad for the nation and, when the neglected children have long left home, such mothers will (and DO) discover ~ it was bad for them too. And one can never get back those vital bonding years and family memories. I believe this to be true. It's not hatred of a perceived group. It is what I think works in people's lives..If you have accounts of where this isn't the case. That neglecting children and spouse, family etc is actually good for the family and the community ~ then I am happy to take these on board..
Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner, particularly in London.
And although you say you don’t abuse posters on here you certainly insult them.
You have the closed mind of a fanatic, unfortunately.
As stated earlier JS ~ I agree!!! Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner.
The point I am making is not that this isnt happening and necessary to meet the cost of living in 2022. My point is ... it isn't actually good for family, marriages, the community and society. We KNOW what IS good for family marriages community and society and we have thrown it away.
My wife hasn’t worked for almost 4 years. I don’t think she’d agree at all that it’s been good for her, it’s been good for my son, yes, but awful for her. It’s made her feel like she’s lost her place on society and her career has taken a huge hit.
She believes those negatives have been overcome by the positives of being able to raise our son, but from a personal viewpoint, it’s not.
It’s also definitely not been great for our marriage, when she feels stuck / trapped at home all day that can lead to a lot of resentment that I’m the one able to go out to work, mingle with people etc.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Change can be good.
LR: To respond to your overriding positon ~ If one's starting point on every issue is ~ Hey, there's a perceived inequality, quick everyone let's destroy the perceived cause and perpetuator of it and then we can all live in some Lennonesque Imagine utopia. Then I would have to agree your position on things is wholly understandable.
But I generally find "Inequality Hunters" tend to be very selective when including in their "portfolio of inequalities" various inequalities that don't really support their underlying biases. We soon discover it isn't the principle of fighting inequality and social inustices (see Gribbo's fine point on an enormous social injustice of our time) that is the driving force in such persons but rather the implementation of a world view completely at loggerheads with what is true and right. But let us set this aside for now.
If I were to share the approach "how dare you stop someone from doing something they enjoy and are competent to execute you "***-ist pig" I would be denying a broader picture (and there IS a broader picture) and would therefore be disingenuous and not living what I believe to be true.
All this disagreement really is about how we "frame" things. I don't want to demand that you frame things my way. I am just sharing how and why I frame things the way I do. That is all.
My starting point in this issue is what I believe to be best for a family, community and society. And faith does indeed inform that starting point. I fully take on-board that others don't see things that way and rather choose to make, as their starting point (and in many cases ~ end point too) in any argument "injustice" or as pointed out "some injustices".
If this very able sounding referee, to whom we refer, say, works Monday - Friday full time as does her husband, (it has been noted on this thread that both husband and wife MUST work to meet the cost of living now ~ I agree they do but believe it is not good for the family) and their children see barely any of them during the week, would I see that, for "equality's sake" , this mother (and it's Mothering Sunday today so a good time to mention this!) Should be encouraged to deprive her children of EVEN MORE vital parenting ~ at weekends ~ for the sake of simply being able to do something as well as a man (refereeing) I would say an emphatic "NO"!
You however would, I suspect, take the position that to hell with the needs of the children or family or, dare I even whisper it - the husband ... King in all of this is that a certain political agenda is furthered at all costs.
I believe that this MO is bad for children, bad for families, bad for the nation and, when the neglected children have long left home, such mothers will (and DO) discover ~ it was bad for them too. And one can never get back those vital bonding years and family memories. I believe this to be true. It's not hatred of a perceived group. It is what I think works in people's lives..If you have accounts of where this isn't the case. That neglecting children and spouse, family etc is actually good for the family and the community ~ then I am happy to take these on board..
Children need contact with their parents, a truism of course and very hard to argue against. In an ideal world both parents would be available and in contact 24/7 (the reality of economics says differently), particularly in the early years of development - but of course a wider circle is also beneficial - other children at school, siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents and family friends.
You state that the woman referee is depriving her children even more vital parenting with her at the weekends. But what if the male partner (and we are assuming a heterosexual relationship) referees games on a weekend and the mother stays at home - is that in someway different? Or is it the woman's place to be the homemaker and child carer/nurturer. Are men in some way deficient in their ability to care for and nurture children? What if the male in a relationship is the homemaker and the woman the breadwinner - is that acceptable or does it go against your belief that a woman's place is in the home?
Been catching up with it as well and it's certainly not the kind of thing you'd expect to read in 2022, or really in the last fifty or so years. If nothing else it shows the extremely destructive influence of religion. Luckily Rebecca Welch will be able to get on with her career without these kind of views affecting it as surely these days only a tiny amount of people hold them.
Good that they're happy to share them though, at the very least as a reminder of how far society has come and how marginal these views now are.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
AA: I think this sentence of yours is really important. Possibly the most important in the thread. And central to all these disagreements. The original intention (mine) Vs (your) judgment against that intention. You judge that my initial post was full of malice. While I do not agree with this I am perfectly ok with you arriving at this judgment. You are free to do so. And that is life. What ISNT life, is when people cannot accept a difference of opinion and actually want to go further and silence that different opinion. Or 'cancel' it to use the modern terminology. Not once in any thread have I desired to silence an opinion that differs from my own or anyone elses.
It’s not a ‘difference of opinion’ it’s a matter of law ffs.
You want to stop a ‘woman’ carrying out her job because of her sex.
I cannot nor will I accept your opinion on this as it’s criminal.
Now cancel that you sexist cretin.
I am not disputing what has or hasn't been enshrined in law. But to not be permitted to even have an opinion on something ~ even if it be enshrined in law ~ is not what I call freedom. It's called tyranny.
Lol no it’s not. ITS CALLED SEXISM. You complete fool.
But carry on because with every utterance you make yourself look more and more pathetic.
Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner, particularly in London.
And although you say you don’t abuse posters on here you certainly insult them.
You have the closed mind of a fanatic, unfortunately.
As stated earlier JS ~ I agree!!! Very few families can afford to have only one breadwinner.
The point I am making is not that this isnt happening and necessary to meet the cost of living in 2022. My point is ... it isn't actually good for family, marriages, the community and society. We KNOW what IS good for family marriages community and society and we have thrown it away.
My wife hasn’t worked for almost 4 years. I don’t think she’d agree at all that it’s been good for her, it’s been good for my son, yes, but awful for her. It’s made her feel like she’s lost her place on society and her career has taken a huge hit.
She believes those negatives have been overcome by the positives of being able to raise our son, but from a personal viewpoint, it’s not.
It’s also definitely not been great for our marriage, when she feels stuck / trapped at home all day that can lead to a lot of resentment that I’m the one able to go out to work, mingle with people etc.
Some really good points here SK. And I fully agree with how this feeling of alienation/loss of one's sense of place in society can happen as you describe.
When my eldest daughter was born the first thing her mother noticed was how minimal the "network" of mothers were. It was a lonely and isolating place for much of the time and I thought she managed the challenge incredibly well.
While returning to work was certainly good for her to have more social interaction and the esteem that comes from professional accomplishments and so on..The real problem was that there were so few women raising infant children at the time. And we are moving further and further away from that with every passing year.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Ok. I won’t go into the “misappropriation” or “misquoting” stuff. I feel I was being honest, if sometimes paraphrasing (a necessary part of constructive debate, even though it’s often abused). You feel otherwise. Fair enough, I think you’re wrong, but that’s ok 🙂.
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
Do you concede that maybe you should reconsider your position on whether we should allow female referees to officiate men’s football? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board?
Or do you concede that maybe your views on gender roles is outdated and inappropriate? Others have made strong arguments - have you taken these on board? I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length. You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right? Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me. If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
Change can be good.
LR: To respond to your overriding positon ~ If one's starting point on every issue is ~ Hey, there's a perceived inequality, quick everyone let's destroy the perceived cause and perpetuator of it and then we can all live in some Lennonesque Imagine utopia. Then I would have to agree your position on things is wholly understandable.
But I generally find "Inequality Hunters" tend to be very selective when including in their "portfolio of inequalities" various inequalities that don't really support their underlying biases. We soon discover it isn't the principle of fighting inequality and social inustices (see Gribbo's fine point on an enormous social injustice of our time) that is the driving force in such persons but rather the implementation of a world view completely at loggerheads with what is true and right. But let us set this aside for now.
If I were to share the approach "how dare you stop someone from doing something they enjoy and are competent to execute you "***-ist pig" I would be denying a broader picture (and there IS a broader picture) and would therefore be disingenuous and not living what I believe to be true.
All this disagreement really is about how we "frame" things. I don't want to demand that you frame things my way. I am just sharing how and why I frame things the way I do. That is all.
My starting point in this issue is what I believe to be best for a family, community and society. And faith does indeed inform that starting point. I fully take on-board that others don't see things that way and rather choose to make, as their starting point (and in many cases ~ end point too) in any argument "injustice" or as pointed out "some injustices".
If this very able sounding referee, to whom we refer, say, works Monday - Friday full time as does her husband, (it has been noted on this thread that both husband and wife MUST work to meet the cost of living now ~ I agree they do but believe it is not good for the family) and their children see barely any of them during the week, would I see that, for "equality's sake" , this mother (and it's Mothering Sunday today so a good time to mention this!) Should be encouraged to deprive her children of EVEN MORE vital parenting ~ at weekends ~ for the sake of simply being able to do something as well as a man (refereeing) I would say an emphatic "NO"!
You however would, I suspect, take the position that to hell with the needs of the children or family or, dare I even whisper it - the husband ... King in all of this is that a certain political agenda is furthered at all costs.
I believe that this MO is bad for children, bad for families, bad for the nation and, when the neglected children have long left home, such mothers will (and DO) discover ~ it was bad for them too. And one can never get back those vital bonding years and family memories. I believe this to be true. It's not hatred of a perceived group. It is what I think works in people's lives..If you have accounts of where this isn't the case. That neglecting children and spouse, family etc is actually good for the family and the community ~ then I am happy to take these on board..
Children need contact with their parents, a truism of course and very hard to argue against. In an ideal world both parents would be available and in contact 24/7 (the reality of economics says differently), particularly in the early years of development - but of course a wider circle is also beneficial - other children at school, siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents and family friends.
You state that the woman referee is depriving her children even more vital parenting with her at the weekends. But what if the male partner (and we are assuming a heterosexual relationship) referees games on a weekend and the mother stays at home - is that in someway different? Or is it the woman's place to be the homemaker and child carer/nurturer. Are men in some way deficient in their ability to care for and nurture children? What if the male in a relationship is the homemaker and the woman the breadwinner - is that acceptable or does it go against your belief that a woman's place is in the home?
BM: While it may seem useful to turn the discussion into one of accusations of hate of sexism and so on, I think in this thread, especially in the last day of so, the discussion has revealed that this isn't the case. But you are free of course to keep things at that level.
Comments
I haven't heard much in the way of outrage towards the perpetrators of these terrible widespread crimes or a single word of sympathy for the tragic victims of this widespread and dare I say it, 'institutionalised' criminal activity.
One doesn't hear the last of it when other groups are perceived to be treated even with the most moderate disregard. How very strange this age we live in. Full of hypocrisy.
It may come as a surprise to you (if you don't read my postings in a variety of different discussions) but I DO take on-board other arguments. I never shout. And I never swear or abuse another contributor and, unlike a shoal of others on here, I never blaspheme or respond to the many who DO do all these things endlessly. I don't care about "winning the argument". I am confident in my beliefs and confident in the position I may take in a discussion. Not because I am a "troll" which seems to be the word for anyone who challenges a certain viewpoint I see. But because I believe what I am saying. And I am comfortable with it being held up to scrutiny. Even mocked and derided. I can take it!
When we know something to be True, there is no fear or insecurity. It is when we ARENT sure and our argument is rather empty and not very well thought out that we are on shaky ground and one starts the we hominim attacks and in the case of some ~ inventing "quotes" and then strawmanning me.. So, at the very least, well done for advancing beyond that here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPNZTtoQBmA
Lets talk about this bit that I’ve clipped from your post. A direct quote.
I’m just asking because you haven’t made any argument to convincingly back your views up, while others have, at length.
You’ve suggested that a family with one working parent and one homemaker is better than two working parents, which is not an unreasonable position, but how do you justify that it should be the woman who is the homemaker? Others have made strong arguments against this - have you taken these on board?
Finally, an argument from me regarding your reference to how we as a society have ‘moved away from the family unit’. Forgive the paraphrasing again, but the gist of what you said was that we, as a society, are all going to work and that not having a parent at home to bring those kids up is negatively affecting them. Right?
Well my further issue with this is that it’s a false comparison anyway unless the people from previous generations that you’re referencing lived in Downton Abbey. For most people, having only one working parent has never been an option. My parents both worked. All four of my grandparents worked. I suspect all eight of my great-grandparents did too. They couldn’t afford not to. So the idea that this is something we’re moving away from doesn’t make sense to me.
If what you’re trying to say is that women want careers now rather than be satisfied with being a mum, well I simply don’t know why, if a family can afford it, it has to be the mum that stays at home. And in fact, some dads do. I just can’t see why anyone would have an issue with this sort of change in societal structure. We’ve grown as people. We don’t have to work to avoid starving. We don’t get smallpox and polio. We’re better educated.
The traditional family unit as we know it is an artificial invention of the industrial age enabling efficiency in factories.
You want to stop a ‘woman’ carrying out her job because of her sex.
I cannot nor will I accept your opinion on this as it’s criminal.
Now cancel that you sexist cretin.
"Ask Your Husband" by Stephanie Gordon is a good read.
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2022/03/13/ask-your-husband-is-a-superficial-ideological-and-incoherent-guide/
Our whole system is based on the idea that working class people do not have opinions.
The point I am making is not that this isnt happening and necessary to meet the cost of living in 2022. My point is ... it isn't actually good for family, marriages, the community and society. We KNOW what IS good for family marriages community and society and we have thrown it away.
But I generally find "Inequality Hunters" tend to be very selective when including in their "portfolio of inequalities" various inequalities that don't really support their underlying biases. We soon discover it isn't the principle of fighting inequality and social inustices (see Gribbo's fine point on an enormous social injustice of our time) that is the driving force in such persons but rather the implementation of a world view completely at loggerheads with what is true and right. But let us set this aside for now.
If I were to share the approach "how dare you stop someone from doing something they enjoy and are competent to execute you "***-ist pig" I would be denying a broader picture (and there IS a broader picture) and would therefore be disingenuous and not living what I believe to be true.
All this disagreement really is about how we "frame" things. I don't want to demand that you frame things my way. I am just sharing how and why I frame things the way I do. That is all.
My starting point in this issue is what I believe to be best for a family, community and society. And faith does indeed inform that starting point. I fully take on-board that others don't see things that way and rather choose to make, as their starting point (and in many cases ~ end point too) in any argument "injustice" or as pointed out "some injustices".
If this very able sounding referee, to whom we refer, say, works Monday - Friday full time as does her husband, (it has been noted on this thread that both husband and wife MUST work to meet the cost of living now ~ I agree they do but believe it is not good for the family) and their children see barely any of them during the week, would I see that, for "equality's sake" , this mother (and it's Mothering Sunday today so a good time to mention this!) Should be encouraged to deprive her children of EVEN MORE vital parenting ~ at weekends ~ for the sake of simply being able to do something as well as a man (refereeing) I would say an emphatic "NO"!
You however would, I suspect, take the position that to hell with the needs of the children or family or, dare I even whisper it - the husband ... King in all of this is that a certain political agenda is furthered at all costs.
I believe that this MO is bad for children, bad for families, bad for the nation and, when the neglected children have long left home, such mothers will (and DO) discover ~ it was bad for them too. And one can never get back those vital bonding years and family memories. I believe this to be true. It's not hatred of a perceived group. It is what I think works in people's lives..If you have accounts of where this isn't the case. That neglecting children and spouse, family etc is actually good for the family and the community ~ then I am happy to take these on board..
She believes those negatives have been overcome by the positives of being able to raise our son, but from a personal viewpoint, it’s not.
Good that they're happy to share them though, at the very least as a reminder of how far society has come and how marginal these views now are.
ITS CALLED SEXISM.
You complete fool.
But carry on because with every utterance you make yourself look more and more pathetic.
When my eldest daughter was born the first thing her mother noticed was how minimal the "network" of mothers were. It was a lonely and isolating place for much of the time and I thought she managed the challenge incredibly well.
While returning to work was certainly good for her to have more social interaction and the esteem that comes from professional accomplishments and so on..The real problem was that there were so few women raising infant children at the time. And we are moving further and further away from that with every passing year.