To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
In our century if both parents are working it tends to be while the children go to school.
"I can't be sexist, some of my relatives are female"
Always telling when religious fundamentalists tell you what they are against but not what they are for.
It's because even they know it is totally unpalatable so they hide their agenda behind whatever the current terms are. It used to be "Do gooder", then "PC brigade" but now it is "woke".
In that way they hope to piggyback on those myths to push their own agendas (West is in "decline" because woman and minorities aren't staying in the space they think they should be in so they need to wind back the freedoms won in the last couple of centuries so that their religion makes the rules and their insecurities about their own roles and dominance aren't increased.)
We see extreme examples of it in Afghanistan with girls schools being closed. The US religious far right aren't quite as blatant, yet, so they hide behind women staying in their "traditional roles" and "the West is in decline".
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Ok, where to start?
Apart from the fact this is a rambling mess, it’s not even making any clear points.
Are you just saying women ought to stay at home and look after the kids? Is that it? Or are you saying more broadly that men and women have specific roles and we should all just get on board with that? I don’t even see any relevance to Rebecca Welch and her ability to referee men’s football. I simply don’t understand where you’re coming from. Then there’s the fact that you pretty much opened with ‘I know women, so I can’t be sexist’. I mean, bloody hell.
You know what? I’m not even going to debate that. It’s your approach to debate that gets me. The thing is, your tactic in both this discussion and the religion discussion has been to cry foul when people criticise you and move your goalposts to deflect any of that criticism, while lashing out, attacking and attempting to mock a perceived aggressor using terms like ‘woke’ or ‘liberal’ (which have somehow been popularised as pejoratives) all the while showing minimal understanding of their points or the wider arguments being made.
In both discussions, you’ve locked into your position and refused to budge even an inch, even in the face of compelling evidence, persuasive reasoning and factual corrections. You don’t give the impression of being someone able to debate effectively because your method of debate relies entirely on your point of view being made while refusing to accept or even hear others.
Debate is supposed to encourage people to take other views onboard and adjust their own position accordingly. For example, this thread has made me think about the fact that there are people who consider the traditional ‘working husband, housewife, 2.4 kids’ family unit to be more important in modern life than, say, gender equality. (I’m paraphrasing. I know that’s not exactly what you’ve said, but presumably you and/or others might say yes, that’s what you think.) You’re entitled to that view. I disagree with it, but I at least am able to concede that some might see your view, I’m able to consider the merits of the argument, and I’m able to understand your view without calling you a name (that doesn’t mean what I think it means), or criticising anyone who disagrees for ‘playing to the gallery’, (The irony being that just by saying this, you’re effectively posturing, saying “Look at me! Look how worthy I am!”) In any debate, I read or listen to opposing views and I’m willing to be persuaded by them - (if you look back on my posting history on here, you’ll probably find quite a few occasions where I said “Ah, ok. Fair point.” or similar. Conceding a point doesn’t mean you’ve ‘lost’ or that you’re stupid. It actually demonstrates an ability to listen, learn and grow.) The trouble is, you just don’t make any persuasive arguments. Name calling, spiteful scattergun attacks and making uninformed, outdated and thoughtless points don’t cut it, I’m afraid. I have no doubt that you are passionate about the views you hold. You made that clear in the religion discussion. That’s fine - passion is not a bad thing. But you can’t treat a debate like a lecture (yes, I appreciate the irony! 😉). If you want to convince people of your argument, you need to be willing to listen to the opposite view, digest it and apply that view to your thinking. You could accept, partially accept or utterly reject those views, that’s your right, but you have to at least consider those arguments and adjust your position accordingly.
All I see coming from you is shouting while sticking your fingers in your ears. You need to do better than that.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
I have also heard it said that calling out criminality by certain groups because the accusers don’t want to be called racists has happened. Do you really believe that? I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers. Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
The umbrage is because you said she should ONLY referee woman’s football. This is sexist. It is actually against the law to prohibit someone to do a job because of their sexuality.
Stop digging your sanctimonious hole. And if I believed in God I would ask him to help the poor women in your family.
They must have the patience of saints to put up with you.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
" But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. "
So you agree her role may end up interacting with men in the workplace. Her workplace being a football pitch.
Would you then ban male football referees from officiating women's football? It seems like you don't take that approach but you would ban female referees from refereeing male football. How interesting.
It is a bit sad this thread is so large. She shouldn't ref professional men's football because she is a woman, but because she is talented enough to do so. And there is no doubt that her performances have got her noticed and in line for promotion and albeit in one game, we saw for ourselves she was amongst the best refs we have seen this season.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
I have also heard it said that calling out criminality by certain groups because the accusers don’t want to be called racists has happened. Do you really believe that? I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers. Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
"A damning report by the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) found child sexual exploitation continues in all parts of England and Wales, a decade after it became a national scandal.
The report said children were being abused “in the most degrading and destructive ways” amid “extensive failures by local authorities and police forces”.
John O’Brien, secretary to the inquiry, called for a “cultural change” to ensure that child sexual exploitation can be understood and prevented.
“We need to break the culture where people are worried that they might be accused of being racist just because they record factual information,”
Nb - This is my example of how I see "woke", I'm not comparing white / black / Asian people, Im just offering one example of "woke culture" as I see it. Totally accept these crimes are perpetrated by other people, but the point with these particular cases is that nothing was done for so long.
The government withheld much if the findings, but what they deemed to be "in the public interest" is out there if you care to look
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
So what would you call the scenario that I described, if it isn't woke?
I have also heard it said that calling out criminality by certain groups because the accusers don’t want to be called racists has happened. Do you really believe that? I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers. Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
"A damning report by the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) found child sexual exploitation continues in all parts of England and Wales, a decade after it became a national scandal.
The report said children were being abused “in the most degrading and destructive ways” amid “extensive failures by local authorities and police forces”.
John O’Brien, secretary to the inquiry, called for a “cultural change” to ensure that child sexual exploitation can be understood and prevented.
“We need to break the culture where people are worried that they might be accused of being racist just because they record factual information,”
Nb - This is my example of how I see "woke", I'm not comparing white / black / Asian people, Im just offering one example of "woke culture" as I see it. Totally accept these crimes are perpetrated by other people, but the point with these particular cases is that nothing was done for so long.
The government withheld much if the findings, but what they deemed to be "in the public interest" is out there if you care to look
If I was called racist for reporting provable facts I would front it out personally. If accusing somebody of racism when they are not being so is a big deal then that is not being woke, it is being wrong. As I mentioned earlier, ‘woke’ has become a catch all put down term, and in my opinion it needs challenge. Specifically not reporting an actual crime(s) of abuse, and objecting to the pigeonhole people would like to place women in are nowhere near the same thing, yet both are discussed in relation to whatever woke is supposed to be. For me woke means anti racist, for some others woke means ‘you’re not the same as me’ and then a ‘war on woke’ is called on.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You quite clearly do not live in the real world.
I'm sure there are both men and women who would love to spend all day looking after their children, but the reality is that for most people, both parents need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children. Others choose to work as they enjoy it and lead more fulfilled lives by working. Everyone should do what is right for them and the view that the woman's place is in the home is outdated and abhorrent.
Your views on the role of women are archaic and have no place in the 21st century.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You may not intend malice but your initial post was full of it.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
They’re called the police but they go for all black peoples, not just the underage girls.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
Think you have it completely the wrong way around. Woke is alert to social injustice. What you describe is social injustice. Woke advocates speaking out when you see these things, even if you get called out as a snowflake. Victim shaming is certainly not woke.
There is a woman horse rider, Rachel somebody, who is involved in a sport presently dominated by men, but her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill.
Rebecca Welch is able to referee well and her female construction is unimportant compared to her skill. Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism. Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Woke doesn't simply mean anti racist.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
I had this conversation with Blackpool above. It turns out that my definition of ‘woke’ is my opinion, and his definition is his, as is yours. The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate. Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring. I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it. Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
In a thread about women’s place in society, surely he meant ironing.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Ok, where to start?
Apart from the fact this is a rambling mess, it’s not even making any clear points.
Are you just saying women ought to stay at home and look after the kids? Is that it? Or are you saying more broadly that men and women have specific roles and we should all just get on board with that? I don’t even see any relevance to Rebecca Welch and her ability to referee men’s football. I simply don’t understand where you’re coming from. Then there’s the fact that you pretty much opened with ‘I know women, so I can’t be sexist’. I mean, bloody hell.
You know what? I’m not even going to debate that. It’s your approach to debate that gets me. The thing is, your tactic in both this discussion and the religion discussion has been to cry foul when people criticise you and move your goalposts to deflect any of that criticism, while lashing out, attacking and attempting to mock a perceived aggressor using terms like ‘woke’ or ‘liberal’ (which have somehow been popularised as pejoratives) all the while showing minimal understanding of their points or the wider arguments being made.
In both discussions, you’ve locked into your position and refused to budge even an inch, even in the face of compelling evidence, persuasive reasoning and factual corrections. You don’t give the impression of being someone able to debate effectively because your method of debate relies entirely on your point of view being made while refusing to accept or even hear others.
Debate is supposed to encourage people to take other views onboard and adjust their own position accordingly. For example, this thread has made me think about the fact that there are people who consider the traditional ‘working husband, housewife, 2.4 kids’ family unit to be more important in modern life than, say, gender equality. (I’m paraphrasing. I know that’s not exactly what you’ve said, but presumably you and/or others might say yes, that’s what you think.) You’re entitled to that view. I disagree with it, but I at least am able to concede that some might see your view, I’m able to consider the merits of the argument, and I’m able to understand your view without calling you a name (that doesn’t mean what I think it means), or criticising anyone who disagrees for ‘playing to the gallery’, (The irony being that just by saying this, you’re effectively posturing, saying “Look at me! Look how worthy I am!”) In any debate, I read or listen to opposing views and I’m willing to be persuaded by them - (if you look back on my posting history on here, you’ll probably find quite a few occasions where I said “Ah, ok. Fair point.” or similar. Conceding a point doesn’t mean you’ve ‘lost’ or that you’re stupid. It actually demonstrates an ability to listen, learn and grow.) The trouble is, you just don’t make any persuasive arguments. Name calling, spiteful scattergun attacks and making uninformed, outdated and thoughtless points don’t cut it, I’m afraid. I have no doubt that you are passionate about the views you hold. You made that clear in the religion discussion. That’s fine - passion is not a bad thing. But you can’t treat a debate like a lecture (yes, I appreciate the irony! 😉). If you want to convince people of your argument, you need to be willing to listen to the opposite view, digest it and apply that view to your thinking. You could accept, partially accept or utterly reject those views, that’s your right, but you have to at least consider those arguments and adjust your position accordingly.
All I see coming from you is shouting while sticking your fingers in your ears. You need to do better than that.
Excellent post, but arguing with VoT is exactly like arguing with anyone who believes outlandish conspiracy theories. The latter programme themselves to ignore challenges to their world view, because those from the ‘orthodoxy’ are ‘other’ (‘other’ being basically anyone with a different viewpoint from their own, those they believe to be part of some globalist conspiracy, those they believe to have been brainwashed by the liberal elites who ‘control the media’).
In their exchanges they use stock words like liberal, woke, leftist, and no matter what you say, they are pejoratives in their eyes and their targets are ‘symptoms of the West sinking into an abyss’ - despite the fact the the majority of western governments have been anything but leftish for the last decade, our own governments over the last 12 years having become more right wing with each election.
And it’s ironic that they blame the media and press so much when many of their views have been formed because of the decades of grooming undertaken by the Mail, Express and the Sun, who have always sneered at ‘do Golders, the PC brigade, and now the woke.
And of course social media has given a voice to the previously ignored pub bore, chundering away to anyone who’ll listen at the bar.
Bottom line to me is that the world has been changing and progressing for hundreds of years in a way that is entirely predictable, but the changes have always come about too quickly for the fundamentalists of all persuasions.
Does that mean I believe women will ever be better than men at tennis, or faster runners? No.
While women refereeing men’s football may be a step too far for some, there’s no logical reason why they won’t become as good at it as men, or even better.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Hate to break it to you VOT but she might actually have a wife!!
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
You quite clearly do not live in the real world.
I'm sure there are both men and women who would love to spend all day looking after their children, but the reality is that for most people, both parents need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children. Others choose to work as they enjoy it and lead more fulfilled lives by working. Everyone should do what is right for them and the view that the woman's place is in the home is outdated and abhorrent.
Your views on the role of women are archaic and have no place in the 21st century.
Yes, I would tend to agree with you ME14 - both parents DO '... need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children'. The point is, I believe that that NEED to be wrong. Wrong for those parents. Definitely wrong for their children and wrong for society.
I believe as a society we should not be making this sort of demand on parents. If you can point out how children, arguably with MORE complex needs than ever before, have less and less parent time, somehow helps society and builds up this nation to be stronger and makes families stay together and by extension - the community and the nation - I'd be really interested to hear about this. I see the polar opposite taking place. Everywhere.
"I can't be sexist, some of my relatives are female"
Always telling when religious fundamentalists tell you what they are against but not what they are for.
It's because even they know it is totally unpalatable so they hide their agenda behind whatever the current terms are. It used to be "Do gooder", then "PC brigade" but now it is "woke".
In that way they hope to piggyback on those myths to push their own agendas (West is in "decline" because woman and minorities aren't staying in the space they think they should be in so they need to wind back the freedoms won in the last couple of centuries so that their religion makes the rules and their insecurities about their own roles and dominance aren't increased.)
We see extreme examples of it in Afghanistan with girls schools being closed. The US religious far right aren't quite as blatant, yet, so they hide behind women staying in their "traditional roles" and "the West is in decline".
Henry,
If directly quoting someone, that is absolutely fine. What ISNT fine is inventing a quote, putting it in speech marks, attributing your spiteful quote to whoever you wish to slander and then attacking them through THAT quote - that YOU have in fact invented. It is the height of ignorance. Another may even suggest Libel laws were invented for such pernicious behaviour. I am sure you can do far better than this.
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Hate to break it to you VOT but she might actually have a wife!!
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Hate to break it to you VOT but she might actually have a wife!!
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Hate to break it to you VOT but she might actually have a wife!!
To anyone reading who may feel offended by those nasty woke people…
We aren’t cancelling you, we are challenging you. Meanwhile religious zealots here in the States are having books banned from children’s school libraries that focus on topics that they don’t agree with.
There’s one article above but do look it up, it’s actually happening. And it won’t take long for sections of the British public to follow suit. Meanwhile, I’ll give you three attempts at trying to name a right wing mouthpiece that has actually been ‘cancelSELR_addicks said:
"I'm definitely not controlling and sexist but I would force women to stay in the kitchen and rear children for their entire lives".
When one cannot find a single quote to attack someone they ... Invent their own quote and idiotically attribute it to that person. Best leave you in fantasy land.
What role in society do you think that women should play a part in?
Are they allowed to interact with men in the workplace? Maybe perhaps even hold a similar role to a man in the same working environment?
SELR: I have mother, aunts, sisters, spouse, daughters, female colleagues and ... believe-it-or-not ... women I count as good friends. As unlikely as it may seem, they rather like my honest - hide nothing - approach. They know I am not 'performing to the gallery' and trying to virtue-signal my way through this short life we have. My terminology may appear (on a thread discussion among the rather woke-minded) to belong in the mid 19th Century but most people I know know the INTENT behind what I am saying. That is to say - they know I am not saying something either for effect or to hurt others. It might come across as clumsy or lacking the 'finesse' of a Guardian article (and thank God for that!) but there is no intended malice. To return to the original thread about a female referee. I applauded that this particular person has attained a high level of competence in her chosen field - refereeing. The umbrage that some have taken stems from where that refereeing should take place. Men's football or women's football. It's hardly Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech. And yet to the very distorted among us that is EXACTLY what my comment seems to represent. How utterly ridiculous.
The aforesaid women in my life all seem to play a variety of roles in society, yes. Motherhood being by far and away the most rewarding of these roles (they say). But as educated women they have professional lives also. They interact with men in the workplace. Of course.
I suspect there are many on these pages who think a family functions best when mum and dad are both out at work all day (presumably esp with the woman doing a quintessential male job of course!) and their children are left unparented, neglected and zombied out on computer games until those exhausted parents get home each evening. I don't. And I know a good number of men and women that do not subscribe to this particular configuration of family life.
It never fails to baffle me how the perceived 'victims' of all these woke discussions are always the least problematic persons to actually personally encounter in real life. Whether it be ethnic minorities, women, the same sex attracted, the disabled etc. The real problems are the (mostly) white, middle-class liberal/leftists that think they speak for the whole world when in fact they only speak for JUST other white, middle-class liberal/leftists.
And absolutely no one else.
I wish this woman referee - every happiness and success. And, if she has a husband and children - them too.
Hate to break it to you VOT but she might actually have a wife!!
I fear the sin of 'thread drift' has already been exhausted without wishing to plummet even further from the subject in question.
Comments
Always telling when religious fundamentalists tell you what they are against but not what they are for.
It's because even they know it is totally unpalatable so they hide their agenda behind whatever the current terms are. It used to be "Do gooder", then "PC brigade" but now it is "woke".
In that way they hope to piggyback on those myths to push their own agendas (West is in "decline" because woman and minorities aren't staying in the space they think they should be in so they need to wind back the freedoms won in the last couple of centuries so that their religion makes the rules and their insecurities about their own roles and dominance aren't increased.)
We see extreme examples of it in Afghanistan with girls schools being closed. The US religious far right aren't quite as blatant, yet, so they hide behind women staying in their "traditional roles" and "the West is in decline".
Woke means anti racist, those who promote a war on woke promote the strengthening of racism.
Antifa stands for anti Fascist and given what is happening in Ukraine more and more people and governmental institutions across the globe are Antifa.
Apart from the fact this is a rambling mess, it’s not even making any clear points.
In any debate, I read or listen to opposing views and I’m willing to be persuaded by them - (if you look back on my posting history on here, you’ll probably find quite a few occasions where I said “Ah, ok. Fair point.” or similar. Conceding a point doesn’t mean you’ve ‘lost’ or that you’re stupid. It actually demonstrates an ability to listen, learn and grow.) The trouble is, you just don’t make any persuasive arguments. Name calling, spiteful scattergun attacks and making uninformed, outdated and thoughtless points don’t cut it, I’m afraid.
I have no doubt that you are passionate about the views you hold. You made that clear in the religion discussion. That’s fine - passion is not a bad thing. But you can’t treat a debate like a lecture (yes, I appreciate the irony! 😉). If you want to convince people of your argument, you need to be willing to listen to the opposite view, digest it and apply that view to your thinking. You could accept, partially accept or utterly reject those views, that’s your right, but you have to at least consider those arguments and adjust your position accordingly.
Inoring the systematic grooming and rape of young underage white girls by predominantly Pakistani gangs of men for years and year's, because no one wants to stick their head above the parapet and be labelled "racist", is what I would describe as woke.
It might be a bit of on old cliche, but what if it was the other way round? What would've happened if there were gangs of white men preying on just young / under age Black and Asian girls across the North of England for so many years, going completely unchallenged for that time?
There were even prominent people (sure a couple of MPs too) blaming the culture the girls come from for the abuse, as opposed to that of the perpetrators. If it does come down to culture, surely an "un-woke" world would look at the paedophiles and rapists carrying out the abuse, as opposed to the victims.
I don't personally use the word, but imo, the above would be a perfect example of what woke could be and why so many, including black and Asian people, flag wokeness when they see it.
The thing is with language a word like ‘woke’ can become fluid and pinning down the definition is both a challenge, but also an entree to what might be an enlightening debate.
Some people who can’t be bothered to think about this issue much dismiss the search for meaning as ‘mere semantics’ or think the issues can be solved by looking at a dictionary. I don’t think it is a simple as that, and language is a powerful thing worth exploring.
I think there is a danger in some people making ‘woke’ a catch all put down term, and it is well worth pushing back against it.
Indeed during the process of pushing back one can reveal the dark heart of those who throw the term around willy nilly.
edit
P.S I think you wanted to say ‘ignoring’ at the start of your second paragraph.
Do you really believe that?
I have not seen the evidence, indeed accusations of racism doesn’t seem to worry the police forces too much when they disproportionately stop and search young black teenagers.
Stop and search statistics are available as evidence rather than hearsay.
This is sexist.
It is actually against the law to prohibit someone to do a job because of their sexuality.
Stop digging your sanctimonious hole.
And if I believed in God I would ask him to help the poor women in your family.
So you agree her role may end up interacting with men in the workplace. Her workplace being a football pitch.
Would you then ban male football referees from officiating women's football? It seems like you don't take that approach but you would ban female referees from refereeing male football. How interesting.
"A damning report by the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) found child sexual exploitation continues in all parts of England and Wales, a decade after it became a national scandal.
The report said children were being abused “in the most degrading and destructive ways” amid “extensive failures by local authorities and police forces”.
John O’Brien, secretary to the inquiry, called for a “cultural change” to ensure that child sexual exploitation can be understood and prevented.
“We need to break the culture where people are worried that they might be accused of being racist just because they record factual information,”
Nb - This is my example of how I see "woke", I'm not comparing white / black / Asian people, Im just offering one example of "woke culture" as I see it. Totally accept these crimes are perpetrated by other people, but the point with these particular cases is that nothing was done for so long.
The government withheld much if the findings, but what they deemed to be "in the public interest" is out there if you care to look
If accusing somebody of racism when they are not being so is a big deal then that is not being woke, it is being wrong.
As I mentioned earlier, ‘woke’ has become a catch all put down term, and in my opinion it needs challenge.
Specifically not reporting an actual crime(s) of abuse, and objecting to the pigeonhole people would like to place women in are nowhere near the same thing, yet both are discussed in relation to whatever woke is supposed to be.
For me woke means anti racist, for some others woke means ‘you’re not the same as me’ and then a ‘war on woke’ is called on.
I'm sure there are both men and women who would love to spend all day looking after their children, but the reality is that for most people, both parents need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children. Others choose to work as they enjoy it and lead more fulfilled lives by working. Everyone should do what is right for them and the view that the woman's place is in the home is outdated and abhorrent.
Your views on the role of women are archaic and have no place in the 21st century.
Unless I've missed your point completely.
Yes, I would tend to agree with you ME14 - both parents DO '... need to work to earn enough money to bring up their children'. The point is, I believe that that NEED to be wrong. Wrong for those parents. Definitely wrong for their children and wrong for society.
I believe as a society we should not be making this sort of demand on parents. If you can point out how children, arguably with MORE complex needs than ever before, have less and less parent time, somehow helps society and builds up this nation to be stronger and makes families stay together and by extension - the community and the nation - I'd be really interested to hear about this. I see the polar opposite taking place. Everywhere.
If directly quoting someone, that is absolutely fine. What ISNT fine is inventing a quote, putting it in speech marks, attributing your spiteful quote to whoever you wish to slander and then attacking them through THAT quote - that YOU have in fact invented. It is the height of ignorance. Another may even suggest Libel laws were invented for such pernicious behaviour. I am sure you can do far better than this.