That is also the issue, if the loans are not ‘better’ then what is the point? They cost money too. I know I am a bit obsessive about this, but the question remains why have a development system and not use it? Kanu for 40 seconds last Saturday was farcical. As is the Nile John situation.
If things were different we would probably have 4 or 5 in the first team. The reason we haven't is we either sold them (in some cases we didn't have a choice) Gomez, Grant and Konsa could of all still played u23s last season! or didn't extend their contracts when we should have.
Dijksteel, Aribo and Lookman are just a year older. Doughty left after 5 minutes, Morgan has been stop start and Lapslie wasn't good enough. That's a great core of young players we could of had, not including others that left even younger.
There is no point playing 17 and 18 year old boys if they aren't ready, it does more harm than good. It's not like we have any, let alone 3 or 4, 19-21 year olds knocking the door down or missing out.
That's the thing that will take time to fix. That's what decades of under investment does.
I think you are spot on, but not necessarily about the under investment. We simply sell the youngsters as demonstrated by your list. It’s unrealistic to keep expecting more, even in the third tier.
Your never going to keep a Gomez, it's just how much you get, we wouldn't have kept him in the top tier.
We sold Konsa and Dijksteel because we wanted the money and ballsed up Aribo and Doughty's contracts. Grant we managed to do both at the same time. All 5 were avoidable.
Lookman is the only one we got fair use and fair money from.
The rest is lack of investment and shoddy contract management that go hand in hand.
I didn't even include others that left younger, Palmer is only 25.
Seth's point is why have a youth team if you don't have a pathway. Mine is that's not the case at all.
You are right. There has been a pathway. With badly managed outcomes. I suppose what frustrates me is the current situation regarding loans verses our guys. I wouldn’t like to see more blockage for our guys in the future unless what we introduce creates a winning team. I also think we have a really good number of players not far off being ready, from now and over the next few years.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
Is there a flaw in the logic that says if you have a development system then play your own developed or developing players rather than cast around for loans? I know the answer is yes if what you loan is better than what you’ve got, but looking at this past season I would say we have in house players as good as what we have loaned in. At third division level surely the opportunity to try and to blood our own players is here. Save wasting money on indifferent strangers.
Bringing youth team players into the first team only works well if you have a strong first team that is not struggling in the division.
otherwise you destroy the youth players confidence and ability. fans play a large part in that by placing to much expectation on the youth player and then turning on him when he fails to turn the struggling team around. in a strong squad a youth play can go unnoticed in a game even though he has performed well and so no expectation to burden the player down.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That is also the issue, if the loans are not ‘better’ then what is the point? They cost money too. I know I am a bit obsessive about this, but the question remains why have a development system and not use it? Kanu for 40 seconds last Saturday was farcical. As is the Nile John situation.
If things were different we would probably have 4 or 5 in the first team. The reason we haven't is we either sold them (in some cases we didn't have a choice) Gomez, Grant and Konsa could of all still played u23s last season! or didn't extend their contracts when we should have.
Dijksteel, Aribo and Lookman are just a year older. Doughty left after 5 minutes, Morgan has been stop start and Lapslie wasn't good enough. That's a great core of young players we could of had, not including others that left even younger.
There is no point playing 17 and 18 year old boys if they aren't ready, it does more harm than good. It's not like we have any, let alone 3 or 4, 19-21 year olds knocking the door down or missing out.
That's the thing that will take time to fix. That's what decades of under investment does.
I think you are spot on, but not necessarily about the under investment. We simply sell the youngsters as demonstrated by your list. It’s unrealistic to keep expecting more, even in the third tier.
Your never going to keep a Gomez, it's just how much you get, we wouldn't have kept him in the top tier.
We sold Konsa and Dijksteel because we wanted the money and ballsed up Aribo and Doughty's contracts. Grant we managed to do both at the same time. All 5 were avoidable.
Lookman is the only one we got fair use and fair money from.
The rest is lack of investment and shoddy contract management that go hand in hand.
I didn't even include others that left younger, Palmer is only 25.
Seth's point is why have a youth team if you don't have a pathway. Mine is that's not the case at all.
They were avoidable, but don't think that means we would have kept them. Could certainly have got more for the likes of Aribo and Grant but they would still have left, even if 6/12 months later.
Yes we needed more investment but what I meant was that young players are going to go and it's unrealistic to keep asking more to step up. I was agreeing with you that there's no point playing young players who aren't ready. The ones that were good enough are now elsewhere, the development system is clearly there, but not to create new squads every summer.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
Speaking to Rotherham fan at their ground and he was still raving about Richard Wood. 36 years old and on verge for promotion. Could he be an excellent free transfer like Pratley or will be like Gary Doherty or Ben Watson. Always hard to tell with older players.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
Speaking to Rotherham fan at their ground and he was still raving about Richard Wood. 36 years old and on verge for promotion. Could he be an excellent free transfer like Pratley or will be like Gary Doherty or Ben Watson. Always hard to tell with older players.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
I know it was only an example but I would be shocked if Arter was signed on the basis of stats. His performances had been shocking for a good 18-24 months prior to joining. In hindsight, it was clear he was on a sharp downwards trajectory.
You are right that there will be less information on some of these young players (there is more than most would expect, and it's only going to grow) I think you can safely take a punt on a couple each summer. A low cost opportunity for us, and for them an opportunity to continue their career with a club that has over the years given young players a chance. I think we would be able to push ourselves to the front of the queue for many young and talented players that need a new home, especially those let go by other London clubs.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
Players can 'drop off a cliff' too - they might have been really good players, both in the stats and in the eyes of scouts, and then suddenly their form just disappears. Some players peak early and go downhill fast, some players peak late after a slow rise, some players peak suddenly having previously shown no real signs of being anything special, some burn bright and long, some peak then trough then peak again, some just never deliver on their full potential despite that potential being clear for all to see.
There's no magic solution that guarantees success when signing footballers. All you can do is your due diligence on every player to best your time and budget allows but, ultimately, every signing carries an element of a leap of faith. Do things right and you should get more hits than misses, but you also might just have a bad summer where you get more wrong than right. I think people also forget some of the duds we signed under even our most successful managers.
I think this is the nuance that some fans forget. There's a lot of theories, hand wringing, and finger pointing about why last summer didn't go so well, but just because it wasn't great recruitment last summer doesn't mean the system or approach was fundamentally flawed. Also doesn't mean there's not lessons to be learnt from it.
That is also the issue, if the loans are not ‘better’ then what is the point? They cost money too. I know I am a bit obsessive about this, but the question remains why have a development system and not use it? Kanu for 40 seconds last Saturday was farcical. As is the Nile John situation.
If things were different we would probably have 4 or 5 in the first team. The reason we haven't is we either sold them (in some cases we didn't have a choice) Gomez, Grant and Konsa could of all still played u23s last season! or didn't extend their contracts when we should have.
Dijksteel, Aribo and Lookman are just a year older. Doughty left after 5 minutes, Morgan has been stop start and Lapslie wasn't good enough. That's a great core of young players we could of had, not including others that left even younger.
There is no point playing 17 and 18 year old boys if they aren't ready, it does more harm than good. It's not like we have any, let alone 3 or 4, 19-21 year olds knocking the door down or missing out.
That's the thing that will take time to fix. That's what decades of under investment does.
I think you are spot on, but not necessarily about the under investment. We simply sell the youngsters as demonstrated by your list. It’s unrealistic to keep expecting more, even in the third tier.
Your never going to keep a Gomez, it's just how much you get, we wouldn't have kept him in the top tier.
We sold Konsa and Dijksteel because we wanted the money and ballsed up Aribo and Doughty's contracts. Grant we managed to do both at the same time. All 5 were avoidable.
Lookman is the only one we got fair use and fair money from.
The rest is lack of investment and shoddy contract management that go hand in hand.
I didn't even include others that left younger, Palmer is only 25.
Seth's point is why have a youth team if you don't have a pathway. Mine is that's not the case at all.
Dijksteel yes because it was probably felt he was easily replaced and we signed Matthews the same month. But with Konsa we were in league one, so regardless of whether we wanted the money, he got an offer from a high flying championship club so in that situation we had little chance of keeping him. Same as now if a top half championship club bid for anyone it'd be tough to keep them. That's the sad reality of where we are now.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
I was thinking more about players with a few years of experience on loan but that’s true for those that haven’t done so.
On the likes of Arter I think it’s the opposite. We missed out on earlier targets so went for known players. Henderson and Souare are two more examples from last summer.
If we used stats to identify them then we were doing a terrible job - none of them would have had good stats in recent seasons. More recent data is obviously much more relevant, it’s hard to believe our analysts picked out Arter because he had good stats from Bournemouth 5+ years ago.
I think it’s much more likely we signed them based on their reputation and on recommendations (in the case of Souare) rather than picking them out through data.
Whether anyone believes it or not I’m sure TS said we do use a combination of analytics and traditional scouting. Of course that doesn’t mean we’re getting the balance right or that scout and analysts are doing a good job.
I would also hope we have a good idea of who is likely to be released by the Cat 1 academies over the summer.
There is plenty of talent being let go every year, the George Dobsons of this world. Rather than wait for these players to have a good couple of seasons with other teams in this league and having to pay six figure fees, let’s sign them on free transfers instead.
Kane Wilson another great example. Let go by WBA two years ago and now the League Two player of the year with a dozen plus clubs lining up to sign him
I think this is an area where we don’t look enough in. We could, and probably would, find some very talented players better that could develop with us for a couple of years and sell on for a good fee. It’s not just our own academy we should be keeping track of, it’s those in other academies who do not have the pathway that we provide.
I think Charlton actually a very good track record of bring players in from other academies, I would say around 50% of the U23 haven't come all the way through the Charlton system, they have been at other academies..
Two different things, what we don’t really do is sign young players let go elsewhere who are good enough to go straight into the first team. Kane Wilson for example.
On making u23 signings how many are here to be genuine first team prospects and how many are making up the numbers? Some of the u23 signings are the latter, they need enough to have a decent sized squad.
That’s the point I was making. There would be players released from other academies who would be able to go and get a place in the first team squad. What we do instead is sign others not quite ready for the first team, for the U23 or U18s.
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
A bit of both I expect. Our scouting set up probably wasn’t able to monitor every young player from L1 down to the NL.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
That, for me, is one of the weaknesses of analytics.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
I was thinking more about players with a few years of experience on loan but that’s true for those that haven’t done so.
On the likes of Arter I think it’s the opposite. We missed out on earlier targets so went for known players. Henderson and Souare are two more examples from last summer.
If we used stats to identify them then we were doing a terrible job - none of them would have had good stats in recent seasons. More recent data is obviously much more relevant, it’s hard to believe our analysts picked out Arter because he had good stats from Bournemouth 5+ years ago.
I think it’s much more likely we signed them based on their reputation and on recommendations (in the case of Souare) rather than picking them out through data.
Whether anyone believes it or not I’m sure TS said we do use a combination of analytics and traditional scouting. Of course that doesn’t mean we’re getting the balance right or that scout and analysts are doing a good job.
It was said back in the Q&A that the digital scouting was also used in identifying players with good stats but are "out of favour" at current clubs, I'd guess that Lee in particular fell under that category of search parameter, Arter maybe (he did have the reputation but faded into almost obscurity) Fraser was the only one mentioned by name as a "forgotten man" that the black box remembered, which, let's face it, was utter bollocks and probably just talking up the Database and it's user 😅
That is also the issue, if the loans are not ‘better’ then what is the point? They cost money too. I know I am a bit obsessive about this, but the question remains why have a development system and not use it? Kanu for 40 seconds last Saturday was farcical. As is the Nile John situation.
If things were different we would probably have 4 or 5 in the first team. The reason we haven't is we either sold them (in some cases we didn't have a choice) Gomez, Grant and Konsa could of all still played u23s last season! or didn't extend their contracts when we should have.
Dijksteel, Aribo and Lookman are just a year older. Doughty left after 5 minutes, Morgan has been stop start and Lapslie wasn't good enough. That's a great core of young players we could of had, not including others that left even younger.
There is no point playing 17 and 18 year old boys if they aren't ready, it does more harm than good. It's not like we have any, let alone 3 or 4, 19-21 year olds knocking the door down or missing out.
That's the thing that will take time to fix. That's what decades of under investment does.
I think you are spot on, but not necessarily about the under investment. We simply sell the youngsters as demonstrated by your list. It’s unrealistic to keep expecting more, even in the third tier.
Your never going to keep a Gomez, it's just how much you get, we wouldn't have kept him in the top tier.
We sold Konsa and Dijksteel because we wanted the money and ballsed up Aribo and Doughty's contracts. Grant we managed to do both at the same time. All 5 were avoidable.
Lookman is the only one we got fair use and fair money from.
The rest is lack of investment and shoddy contract management that go hand in hand.
I didn't even include others that left younger, Palmer is only 25.
Seth's point is why have a youth team if you don't have a pathway. Mine is that's not the case at all.
Dijksteel yes because it was probably felt he was easily replaced and we signed Matthews the same month. But with Konsa we were in league one, so regardless of whether we wanted the money, he got an offer from a high flying championship club so in that situation we had little chance of keeping him. Same as now if a top half championship club bid for anyone it'd be tough to keep them. That's the sad reality of where we are now.
Roland was going cap in hand asking for cash in hand, else he was looking at putting in equity or a FFP sanction.
The one transfer story I've heard from a few friends so seems to be out there is that Akin won't be back apparently he's signed a deal earlier in the year with a Championship club rumoured as Boro or Millwall. This coincided with his drop in form / being dropped.
So no more longing balling it into touch from Akin next season.
I doubt he's signed a deal because if you can sign players outside of transfer windows like that or everyone would be doing it. We could have got a lot of our summer business done ready for the first day of the window for instance.
Of course you can sign players outside transfer windows, you just can't play them until the next transfer window starts. Heskey to Liverpool is the prime example of that.
However, I do think it's highly unlikely anyone has signed Akin from Norwich, especially someone like Millwall who are hoping for the play-offs and then the Premier League for which Akin would be totally unsuitable.
Jesus, Millwall in the Premiership. What an awful thought.
Any one down in darkest Kent heard where Tucker's next stop is likely to be?
He out of contract so Gillingham can’t stop him joining us like they have done past 2/3 windows .. personally think he gone backwards a bit might just need. New challenge and also can play defending mid role so that’s cover for Dobson …
JJ was on my table at the shirt sponsors' dinner last night where we had a very interesting chat. Don't ask what was said, a gentlemen never tells. All I will say is, he knows his targets. Yes, that does equate to "No sh!t, Sherlock".
When I got home, Ms AA asked if I'd told him what he was doing wrong.
You know you're getting old when football managers don't look much older than your own offspring.
TS said last night that they have been working on recruitment for months but he realised that fans won't see that activity.
I think every club up and down the country have been working on recruitment for months, it is something that doesn't really stop.. It is a big summer ahead.
Be nice to get a couple done early on, but would assume a lot of our targets will have a number of clubs looking at them. Not sure Jacko has the same pulling power as Bowyer had. It might come down to finance, but then is that the type of player we want? Charlton needs to sold as a stepping stone in the players careers.
Comments
There has been a pathway. With badly managed outcomes.
I suppose what frustrates me is the current situation regarding loans verses our guys.
I wouldn’t like to see more blockage for our guys in the future unless what we introduce creates a winning team.
I also think we have a really good number of players not far off being ready, from now and over the next few years.
Indeed that's why Jude Bellingham is so regarded at Birmingham, as he signed a contract so they'd get a good fee
A lot of those players that walk straight into first teams are (mainly) doing so at the likes of the Gillinghams and Walsall's where they can take that risk and award approach more so than us.
Take Kane Wilson for example, two not very inspiring league one loans, a good loan season in league 2. FGR, given the level they operate at are able to pick him up on a free and chuck him in, giving him the platform to play week in week out and have that stand out season. Is it missed/ bad scouting from clubs like us or is it more the fact that those teams are able to give the chance more freely and see what happens.
If we had signed him last summer, he'd probably have made more appearances for our u23's than first team.
otherwise you destroy the youth players confidence and ability. fans play a large part in that by placing to much expectation on the youth player and then turning on him when he fails to turn the struggling team around.
in a strong squad a youth play can go unnoticed in a game even though he has performed well and so no expectation to burden the player down.
Can we get players like him on a free and loan them out for half or a full season if they’re not quite ready? The budget likely wasn’t there to be able to do that as well as Gallen not having resource to track and identify the right players.
We need to move on from signing so many older “big names” dropping down from higher up, so many haven’t worked out in the last 2/3 years.
Yes we needed more investment but what I meant was that young players are going to go and it's unrealistic to keep asking more to step up. I was agreeing with you that there's no point playing young players who aren't ready. The ones that were good enough are now elsewhere, the development system is clearly there, but not to create new squads every summer.
Young players released by "big" or any club don't have stats or at least not as many.
Established players like Arter do.
So if you over rely on stats Arter is the best bet.
If you combine stats with traditional scouting then you have more chance of unearthing a gem.
Not that older players like Pratley and Pearce can't also bring intangible qualities such as leadership, example, experience.
You are right that there will be less information on some of these young players (there is more than most would expect, and it's only going to grow) I think you can safely take a punt on a couple each summer. A low cost opportunity for us, and for them an opportunity to continue their career with a club that has over the years given young players a chance. I think we would be able to push ourselves to the front of the queue for many young and talented players that need a new home, especially those let go by other London clubs.
There's no magic solution that guarantees success when signing footballers. All you can do is your due diligence on every player to best your time and budget allows but, ultimately, every signing carries an element of a leap of faith. Do things right and you should get more hits than misses, but you also might just have a bad summer where you get more wrong than right. I think people also forget some of the duds we signed under even our most successful managers.
I think this is the nuance that some fans forget. There's a lot of theories, hand wringing, and finger pointing about why last summer didn't go so well, but just because it wasn't great recruitment last summer doesn't mean the system or approach was fundamentally flawed. Also doesn't mean there's not lessons to be learnt from it.
But frankly I think they're most likely to stay at Rotherham, although Johansson has only been second choice some of this season.
On the likes of Arter I think it’s the opposite. We missed out on earlier targets so went for known players. Henderson and Souare are two more examples from last summer.
If we used stats to identify them then we were doing a terrible job - none of them would have had good stats in recent seasons. More recent data is obviously much more relevant, it’s hard to believe our analysts picked out Arter because he had good stats from Bournemouth 5+ years ago.
I think it’s much more likely we signed them based on their reputation and on recommendations (in the case of Souare) rather than picking them out through data.
Whether anyone believes it or not I’m sure TS said we do use a combination of analytics and traditional scouting. Of course that doesn’t mean we’re getting the balance right or that scout and analysts are doing a good job.
It was said back in the Q&A that the digital scouting was also used in identifying players with good stats but are "out of favour" at current clubs, I'd guess that Lee in particular fell under that category of search parameter, Arter maybe (he did have the reputation but faded into almost obscurity) Fraser was the only one mentioned by name as a "forgotten man" that the black box remembered, which, let's face it, was utter bollocks and probably just talking up the Database and it's user 😅
However, I do think it's highly unlikely anyone has signed Akin from Norwich, especially someone like Millwall who are hoping for the play-offs and then the Premier League for which Akin would be totally unsuitable.
Jesus, Millwall in the Premiership. What an awful thought.
personally think he gone backwards a bit might just need. New challenge and also can play defending mid role so that’s cover for Dobson …
When I got home, Ms AA asked if I'd told him what he was doing wrong.
You know you're getting old when football managers don't look much older than your own offspring.
Trouble on here is that everyone wants to know right now.
Under Curbs you seemed to know about new players after we'd signed them.
I think every club up and down the country have been working on recruitment for months, it is something that doesn't really stop.. It is a big summer ahead.
Be nice to get a couple done early on, but would assume a lot of our targets will have a number of clubs looking at them. Not sure Jacko has the same pulling power as Bowyer had. It might come down to finance, but then is that the type of player we want? Charlton needs to sold as a stepping stone in the players careers.