There are something like 300 players we are currently monitoring and assessing. The club are actually doing stuff and have been for some time.
unfortunately there are things that happen that we know nothing of and have no control over but they still sometimes happen. What is important is to know we most definitely are working on this.
A lot doesn’t get out into the public domain and the club do get hit over the head with it sometimes. No we are not perfect but we are nowhere near as inept as some people want to make out. I just don’t understand the agenda of some!
The reason people think it's inept is because we have eyes and saw the clusterfuck that happened last summer.
The "data" produced two players that were actually quite good and Kirk. We were still 5 or 6 players short so we resorted to Gallen begging his mates to lend or recommend players.
If the attitude is well Martin (zero football experience) has replaced Roddy (little recruitment experience) so this time it will be better, well put me down as I will believe it when I see it.
Everyone has already decided Martin is not bringing anything to the table before he’s had a chance to prove or disprove it though!
Kirk didn’t work because of the formation we played - the issue was more about the lack of joined up thinking between playing and scouting staff. We relied on stats more than what was practical to the desired formation.
we need a manager in place who has a clear vision and a plan - the rest falls in to place after that point. Well, That's the thinking anyway
MS has had significant involvement for a while. He blabbed to Connor about his contract. His Dad has been giving him jobs for years.
Carry on thinking all will be rosey!
Yes you’re probably right. We should all take to social media and tell him to fuck off. That’s bound to have the desired effect.
Because that’s what plenty of people are doing
people who have no fucking clue about what happens behind the scenes
im sure Thomas wants all the negativity. I reckon he loves looking at the millions he’s thrown at us only to be told he’s a penniless chancer
what do people want from the club? The man paying the bills is going to trust family above anyone else because they aren’t going to stab him in the back at the first opportunity. As I’ve said many times this club has been in a horrific decline for a number of years with a number of owners - it will take time to get us going in the right direction again but it will take longer as long as the fans want to snipe at EVERYTHING the club does
I genuinely don't have a closed mind, but I can't see how this ends up working well.
He simply isn't qualified to do this job. At all.
The post where it was questioned would TS get a footballer to run his medical business is a prime example.
TS has a lot of credit but he is just going to waste his millions the way he has set up our recruitment.
As a fan, I would like him to stay around, employ a better, more "football" experienced CEO, get a young progressive manager on board and realise next season is not the cake walk he wants it to be.
We finished 13th in League 1.
If you are happy with that so be it. I'm not. We should do better. We have no manager, one full back and a need for realistically 10 players. 4-5 permanent minimum and 6 excellent loans.
Right now, I don't think we will get what we need. This is a forum, with opinions. Ours differ. That's allowed.
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
Crickey, what are you smoking?
The floor is yours, which part of “we’re pissed off that we’ve had a crap season” do you not agree with?
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
You can have a more reasoned argruement over politics than Charlton at the minute.
There are something like 300 players we are currently monitoring and assessing. The club are actually doing stuff and have been for some time.
unfortunately there are things that happen that we know nothing of and have no control over but they still sometimes happen. What is important is to know we most definitely are working on this.
A lot doesn’t get out into the public domain and the club do get hit over the head with it sometimes. No we are not perfect but we are nowhere near as inept as some people want to make out. I just don’t understand the agenda of some!
The reason people think it's inept is because we have eyes and saw the clusterfuck that happened last summer.
The "data" produced two players that were actually quite good and Kirk. We were still 5 or 6 players short so we resorted to Gallen begging his mates to lend or recommend players.
If the attitude is well Martin (zero football experience) has replaced Roddy (little recruitment experience) so this time it will be better, well put me down as I will believe it when I see it.
Everyone has already decided Martin is not bringing anything to the table before he’s had a chance to prove or disprove it though!
Kirk didn’t work because of the formation we played - the issue was more about the lack of joined up thinking between playing and scouting staff. We relied on stats more than what was practical to the desired formation.
we need a manager in place who has a clear vision and a plan - the rest falls in to place after that point. Well, That's the thinking anyway
MS has had significant involvement for a while. He blabbed to Connor about his contract. His Dad has been giving him jobs for years.
Carry on thinking all will be rosey!
Yes you’re probably right. We should all take to social media and tell him to fuck off. That’s bound to have the desired effect.
Because that’s what plenty of people are doing
people who have no fucking clue about what happens behind the scenes
im sure Thomas wants all the negativity. I reckon he loves looking at the millions he’s thrown at us only to be told he’s a penniless chancer
what do people want from the club? The man paying the bills is going to trust family above anyone else because they aren’t going to stab him in the back at the first opportunity. As I’ve said many times this club has been in a horrific decline for a number of years with a number of owners - it will take time to get us going in the right direction again but it will take longer as long as the fans want to snipe at EVERYTHING the club does
@Swisdom thank you for jumping in with your comments I have been trying to make these points for weeks but it seems alot of our fanbase dont or wont see the reasoning behind the things that everyone is kicking off about. It has been driving me nuts
I am in no way defending or criticising MS, but surely data is data? As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie. I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
I thought Marquis was done and dusted, was having a medical (tuesday?) and was going to be presented the same afternoon? As it didn't happen, maybe it's because we weren't loking at him or decided he wasn't what we wanted.
By the way, great post @Swisdom. Absolutely my view. People have been banging on for a decade that the club is in decline, but expect the new owner to turn it around in a year, with a League One title thrown in as a freebie.
I am in no way defending or criticising MS, but surely data is data? As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie. I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
Without clogging up the rumours thread, and without going into too much detail becasue its partly my job and im currently sitting on CL to avoid doing it, but:
but surely data is data? - Yes and no, depends the data doesn’t lie. - Yes and no, depends How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that - Yes and no, depends
I hope I´ve helped clear up the magical world of data a little bit more.
I am in no way defending or criticising MS, but surely data is data? As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie. I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
Without clogging up the rumours thread, and without going into too much detail becasue its partly my job and im currently sitting on CL to avoid doing it, but:
but surely data is data? - Yes and no, depends the data doesn’t lie. - Yes and no, depends How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that - Yes and no, depends
I hope I´ve helped clear up the magical world of data a little bit more.
Good career choice they said....
Ever thought about a change in occupation, how becoming a fence installation engineer, you’ll be great at sitting on them 😀😀. Sorry couldn’t resist it
There are something like 300 players we are currently monitoring and assessing. The club are actually doing stuff and have been for some time.
unfortunately there are things that happen that we know nothing of and have no control over but they still sometimes happen. What is important is to know we most definitely are working on this.
A lot doesn’t get out into the public domain and the club do get hit over the head with it sometimes. No we are not perfect but we are nowhere near as inept as some people want to make out. I just don’t understand the agenda of some!
The reason people think it's inept is because we have eyes and saw the clusterfuck that happened last summer.
The "data" produced two players that were actually quite good and Kirk. We were still 5 or 6 players short so we resorted to Gallen begging his mates to lend or recommend players.
If the attitude is well Martin (zero football experience) has replaced Roddy (little recruitment experience) so this time it will be better, well put me down as I will believe it when I see it.
The key questions this year are has the so called algorithm been massively improved, what parameters are we searching in and who is identifying those parameters? For instance, do we want a keeper who can play out with his feet? If yes then if the black box system is functional statistics can be run on number of passes, pass completion percentage, variety and distance of passes, average pitch position etc. We find the top 5 in that area, look at them some more to check they have hands, Gallen runs the rule over them with his knowledge and experience and gets an idea if the personality will fit and we hopefully complete a good signing from there. That's the dream, but I would like to know what work has been done to establish the kind of players we want and on what basis. Much like it's not good if the black box is broken, it's also no use identifying a target man who's won 90% of his aerial duels if a manager comes in and wants to play within the scope of what TS wants but in a different way, and doesn't want any aerial balls being launched. That'll always be the sticking point, and it's obviously unclear right now what the basis of our scouting is.
That's the sticking point for me, I honestly don't care if it's Sandgaard's son or his gecko reading the data as long as the algorithm works and it provides what we're looking for. My understanding is that with Dobson though we identified an exceptional tackler for the league and Adkins wanted a passer in that spot not a tackler so there was conflict. However if we've identified certain attributes in certain roles that we'll recruit to going forward that's better, but who's identified those attributes, and are they the right ones? I guess we'll see
I am in no way defending or criticising MS, but surely data is data? As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie. I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
Surely that's the heart of the issue though. What is this mystery data that's being analysed, what is the criteria we're using, what context and knowledge of football beyond simple numbers does Sandy Jr have?
What about leadership, personality, and that magic blend of unity and teamwork that Powell found in his promotion squad?
I can't believe that data analysis would have predicted the worth of Andy Hughes for instance.
I thought Marquis was done and dusted, was having a medical (tuesday?) and was going to be presented the same afternoon? As it didn't happen, maybe it's because we weren't loking at him or decided he wasn't what we wanted.
By the way, great post @Swisdom. Absolutely my view. People have been banging on for a decade that the club is in decline, but expect the new owner to turn it around in a year, with a League One title thrown in as a freebie.
Not the way the works works I'm afraid.
I think you oversimplify. What we see with Sandgaard is a well-intentioned owner, but going about it in the wrong way. And certainly not calling on any support from those who know the football industry better than he does.
I can't speak for all of those who criticise, but I do so in the spirit of business improvement. Positive suggestions on how he might stand a better chance of achieving his stated aims.
Expect him to turn it around in a year? No. Hope that he does? Yes.
But his current approach is not going to work. He needs help.
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
Crickey, what are you smoking?
The floor is yours, which part of “we’re pissed off that we’ve had a crap season” do you not agree with?
I agree, we've had a shocker of a season (sorry i couldn't get the winkey emoji to work after my post!).
Genuinely think if Harris comes in, this site will collapse in on itself.
It seems the current thing is to make an argument/ counter argument but completely leave out the point and/ or issue.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Couldn’t agree more. The problem is that the irrational posters are louder than the rational ones!
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
We’ve had a crap season and are rightly looking to blame someone, some won’t admit it and that’s fine, but if we win the league next season with TS and TS Jnr identify the players, Neil Harris as manager and Marquis upfront this place will be euphoric.
Crickey, what are you smoking?
The floor is yours, which part of “we’re pissed off that we’ve had a crap season” do you not agree with?
I agree, we've had a shocker of a season (sorry i couldn't get the winkey emoji to work after my post!).
Genuinely think if Harris comes in, this site will collapse in on itself.
Didn’t see the wink! So I’ve taken your post out of context my apologies.
I am in no way defending or criticising MS, but surely data is data? As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie. I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
And therein lies the issue.
The data is there is black and white but what are we looking at? Goals, assists, tackles, interceptions, who ran a lot?
The most effective way of using the data isn't looking at the top of the list for assists and chucking money at that player, it's working out what is undervalued/overvalued, and what other clubs may have missed - yes, player X only got 2 assists last year but actually, the striker missed 912 chances player X put on a plate for him, or Player Y didn't do that well at left back last season, but the data shows if played as a left sided centre back of 3 he has the stats to be good. Player Z is undervalued because he's 31, but actually the stats show he's got a good injury record, started late, has played the same matches most 27 year olds have, and should play on until 34, 35... etc etc.
The data is simple but the interpretation needs nuance and skill, I have literally not a clue if MS has those skills, though it's worrying he's almost certainly appointed because of who his Dad is rather than him having any decent track record in this area.
Or does Martin Sandgaard suggest specific players?
I think they both suggest players, but my intuition is that MS suggests more than SG.
Reading the Cawley tweet this is my take on it. That reads like MS is identifying the players then SG is negotiating the contracts presumably after TS rubber stamps it.
Indeed.
This is why I posted that Rich Cawley's words had confirmed what SOME of us on here had already surmised.
I wonder whether any Lifers still think this is pure speculation ?
This system was described in public a few times by TS, one of which I believe was the CAST zoom call, also a fan's forum? Cawley didn't 'out' it, they've been quite honest about how it works.
That is my recollection... Apart from the 2? remaining analysts, do we still have any traditional scouts who would go and watch players identified from the analysis at games in the flesh? I don't recall this being confirmed in any of the on-line meetings, apart from MS and Gallen possibly performing this task, but possibly not on a regular basis.
Was the next big thing 3-4 years ago. Had a really good half season at Lincoln in 2019, scoring 14 goals in 29 appearances. That was directly following 22 in 44 for Mansfield in League Two in 18-19.
Fifty appearances in the Championship for Coventry since, scoring nine. Had a tough loan spell at Pompey since January though.
Is Matt Jay (Exeter) worth looking at if we bring in Taylor?
Wouldn’t say no to a goal scoring attacking midfielder. Josh Key is probably the best option if Taylor can bring a player with him, young right back think Sunderland were bidding for this season
Is Matt Jay (Exeter) worth looking at if we bring in Taylor?
Wouldn’t say no to a goal scoring attacking midfielder. Josh Key is probably the best option if Taylor can bring a player with him, young right back think Sunderland were bidding for this season
Josh Key, Matt Jay do they collect players with similar sounding names?
When it comes to Black box data, if you looked at Marcus Maddison stats and data you would've said he was ideal for at a League 1 side if not higher. Nearly 27 and had a good CV for assists and goals at the time.
BUT was the data upgraded to show he didn't like training and the banter with team mates. He ate take aways even on the day of a game, was missing his visits to see his daughter as he had split up with his partner. He was having a melt down.
MM posts on social media would/should have rang some alarm bells.
Does the "black box data" revel the human being and their state of mind as well as the distance they can run in a match, tackles, passes made, goals, assists and the rest of the football minutiae.
Also a little mention of Aiden O'Brien a poster or two said we might be interested in, second link:
"Certainly Walker’s body language reflected poorly, giving the impression he wasn’t interested. His was a lackadaisical on-pitch presence, portraying a figure lacking passion and a willingness to get involved.
Quite the contrast to the approach of the swashbuckling Aiden O’Brien, who breezed in during the same window and swiftly established himself as a fans’ favourite with his strong-running and commitment."
When it comes to Black box data, if you looked at Marcus Maddison stats and data you would've said he was ideal for at a League 1 side if not higher. Nearly 27 and had a good CV for assists and goals at the time.
BUT was the data upgraded to show he didn't like training and the banter with team mates. He ate take aways even on the day of a game, was missing his visits to see his daughter as he had split up with his partner. He was having a melt down.
MM posts on social media would/should have rang some alarm bells.
Does the "black box data" revel the human being and their state of mind as well as the distance they can run in a match, tackles, passes made, goals, assists and the rest of the football minutiae.
No but it can narrow the field to two or three players to then check these things on.
Comments
He simply isn't qualified to do this job. At all.
The post where it was questioned would TS get a footballer to run his medical business is a prime example.
TS has a lot of credit but he is just going to waste his millions the way he has set up our recruitment.
As a fan, I would like him to stay around, employ a better, more "football" experienced CEO, get a young progressive manager on board and realise next season is not the cake walk he wants it to be.
We finished 13th in League 1.
If you are happy with that so be it. I'm not. We should do better. We have no manager, one full back and a need for realistically 10 players. 4-5 permanent minimum and 6 excellent loans.
Right now, I don't think we will get what we need. This is a forum, with opinions.
Ours differ.
That's allowed.
I just don't trust the current process.
Jackson's contract - "well he should have finished 8th and had his contract extended then!!"
Washington going - "why you crying though! we need a better first choice!"
The eternal recruitment debate - "even the dog and duck use data!!!!!1!"
Now that we’re not on the brink of administration the underlying issue and general driver of the anger and frustration in here right now is results.
You can have a more reasoned argruement over politics than Charlton at the minute.
As long as that person or persons knows how to read it and disseminate it then that's job done, the data doesn’t lie.
I work for a large kitchen company (contact me for all deals 😜) we get data everyday on what rep/territory is doing the numbers/performance, what’s selling, what isn’t. How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that
By the way, great post @Swisdom. Absolutely my view. People have been banging on for a decade that the club is in decline, but expect the new owner to turn it around in a year, with a League One title thrown in as a freebie.
Not the way the works works I'm afraid.
Without clogging up the rumours thread, and without going into too much detail becasue its partly my job and im currently sitting on CL to avoid doing it, but:
but surely data is data? - Yes and no, depends
the data doesn’t lie. - Yes and no, depends
How the management decipher and use that info is their prerogative, can’t blame the data analyst/collator for that - Yes and no, depends
I hope I´ve helped clear up the magical world of data a little bit more.
Good career choice they said....
What about leadership, personality, and that magic blend of unity and teamwork that Powell found in his promotion squad?
I can't believe that data analysis would have predicted the worth of Andy Hughes for instance.
I think you oversimplify. What we see with Sandgaard is a well-intentioned owner, but going about it in the wrong way. And certainly not calling on any support from those who know the football industry better than he does.
I can't speak for all of those who criticise, but I do so in the spirit of business improvement. Positive suggestions on how he might stand a better chance of achieving his stated aims.
Expect him to turn it around in a year? No. Hope that he does? Yes.
But his current approach is not going to work. He needs help.
Genuinely think if Harris comes in, this site will collapse in on itself.
Any other team doing that wouldn't be getting any criticism whatsoever. Only Charlton.
The data is there is black and white but what are we looking at? Goals, assists, tackles, interceptions, who ran a lot?
The most effective way of using the data isn't looking at the top of the list for assists and chucking money at that player, it's working out what is undervalued/overvalued, and what other clubs may have missed - yes, player X only got 2 assists last year but actually, the striker missed 912 chances player X put on a plate for him, or Player Y didn't do that well at left back last season, but the data shows if played as a left sided centre back of 3 he has the stats to be good. Player Z is undervalued because he's 31, but actually the stats show he's got a good injury record, started late, has played the same matches most 27 year olds have, and should play on until 34, 35... etc etc.
The data is simple but the interpretation needs nuance and skill, I have literally not a clue if MS has those skills, though it's worrying he's almost certainly appointed because of who his Dad is rather than him having any decent track record in this area.
Apart from the 2? remaining analysts, do we still have any traditional scouts who would go and watch players identified from the analysis at games in the flesh? I don't recall this being confirmed in any of the on-line meetings, apart from MS and Gallen possibly performing this task, but possibly not on a regular basis.
Fifty appearances in the Championship for Coventry since, scoring nine. Had a tough loan spell at Pompey since January though.
BUT was the data upgraded to show he didn't like training and the banter with team mates. He ate take aways even on the day of a game, was missing his visits to see his daughter as he had split up with his partner. He was having a melt down.
MM posts on social media would/should have rang some alarm bells.
Does the "black box data" revel the human being and their state of mind as well as the distance they can run in a match, tackles, passes made, goals, assists and the rest of the football minutiae.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/spectacularly-failed-the-verdict-on-portsmouth-loanee-tyler-walker-who-will-return-to-coventry-as-a-fratton-park-disappointment-3659589
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/the-curious-case-of-tyler-walker-the-ex-nottingham-forest-coventry-and-lincoln-star-going-down-in-portsmouth-history-for-all-the-wrong-reasons-3677227
Also a little mention of Aiden O'Brien a poster or two said we might be interested in, second link:
"Certainly Walker’s body language reflected poorly, giving the impression he wasn’t interested. His was a lackadaisical on-pitch presence, portraying a figure lacking passion and a willingness to get involved.
Quite the contrast to the approach of the swashbuckling Aiden O’Brien, who breezed in during the same window and swiftly established himself as a fans’ favourite with his strong-running and commitment."