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Post-match Thread: Sheffield Wednesday vs Charlton Athletic | Saturday 13th August 2022

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  • edited August 2022
    Can’t believe the amount of stick McGrandles has got, he’s played about 40 minutes of football for us yet some have made their mind up that he’s not good enough already 🤦🏼‍♂️. 

    He’s a much better player than he’s shown so far, give the guy a chance. 


    Yeah I’ve thought this but tbh it’s largely from people who’re generally unhappy and we all know some Charlton fans need a whipping boy! 

    I think McGrandles is a cracking player and some fans will be eating humble pie soon enough.
  • It is totally unfair as it is singling out Stockley.
  • cs1986 said:
    Seen a couple of posts ‘suggesting’ Stockley was ill.
    I thought that was the case actually, as he appeared so listless from the start.
    Anyone got the exact info on this?
    Garner said it, in the post- match interview on Charlton TV. He used the phrase “under the weather”. I take that to mean a cold. They never say ‘ a cold’ in pro football circles, for reasons I discussed a page earlier. A couple of posters gave it an LOL without commenting further. I presume those two never played football even at Sunday League level and never swerved a visit to the Valley when they had colds.

    It also seems a number of posters are suffering from mild attention deficit disorder. For their benefit I remind everyone that Jayden Stockley last season reached 20 goals in all comps despite being injured for several weeks as well as suspended for 3 games after being stitched up by the pub team at Accrington. You’re welcome.
    I said 20 league goals something he has never achieved in his career at this level. Stockley will not score 20 this year.
    Bearing in mind the rare talent of a goal scorer I don't get the stick that Stockley gets.

    Stockley has scored 105 goals in his career 346 matches which is a respectable goal per 3.3 games.  For Charlton that figure improves to a goal every 2.7 games.

    Compare that to Leaburn senior who used to frustrate the hell out of me. 66 goals in 474 games - 7.1 games per goal and for Charlton 53 goals in 344 games - 6.5 games per goal. 

    Stockley ended last season as 14th best goal scorer in league one which improved to 8th when it came to goals per minutes played.  And that in a team that were all at sea for the greater part of the season.

    I appreciate that others will talk of the nuances of tactics and playing formations, but sometimes you just need someone to bang it in the net ... or as Bill Shankly famously said.

    "If you’re in the penalty area and aren’t quite sure what to do with the ball, stick it in the net and we’ll discuss your options afterwards!”
    Problem is 14th best goal scorer is nowhere near good enough when we have no goals coming from anyone else on the pitch.

    13 league goals is only a good return for a striker if/when there's multiple players scoring 5+ themselves.

    Obviously that's not all his fault, but he was high up the list for chances missed from memory.
  • Dazzler21 said:
    JohnnyH2 said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    JohnnyH2 said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    We are far from shit. Been at all 4 games so far and we are making good progrrss
    Sorry Johnny but 🎣

    I was just copying the usual negative ninnies
    And pretty much mocking our supporters. Great support up at Hillsborough yesterday
    No. Mocking the negative ninnies. Didn't say anything about our general travelling support.
    Wasn't even that negative on here yesterday tbf.
  • mart77 said:
    Can’t believe the amount of stick McGrandles has got, he’s played about 40 minutes of football for us yet some have made their mind up that he’s not good enough already 🤦🏼‍♂️. 

    He’s a much better player than he’s shown so far, give the guy a chance. 


    Yeah I’ve thought this but tbh it’s largely from people who’re generally unhappy and we all know some Charlton fans need a whipping boy! 

    I think McGrandles is a cracking player and some fans will be eating humble pie soon enough.
    I agree - give the poor guy a chance .  He could be a dud though; we shall see . 
  • cs1986 said:
    Seen a couple of posts ‘suggesting’ Stockley was ill.
    I thought that was the case actually, as he appeared so listless from the start.
    Anyone got the exact info on this?
    Garner said it, in the post- match interview on Charlton TV. He used the phrase “under the weather”. I take that to mean a cold. They never say ‘ a cold’ in pro football circles, for reasons I discussed a page earlier. A couple of posters gave it an LOL without commenting further. I presume those two never played football even at Sunday League level and never swerved a visit to the Valley when they had colds.

    It also seems a number of posters are suffering from mild attention deficit disorder. For their benefit I remind everyone that Jayden Stockley last season reached 20 goals in all comps despite being injured for several weeks as well as suspended for 3 games after being stitched up by the pub team at Accrington. You’re welcome.
    I said 20 league goals something he has never achieved in his career at this level. Stockley will not score 20 this year.
    Bearing in mind the rare talent of a goal scorer I don't get the stick that Stockley gets.

    Stockley has scored 105 goals in his career 346 matches which is a respectable goal per 3.3 games.  For Charlton that figure improves to a goal every 2.7 games.

    Compare that to Leaburn senior who used to frustrate the hell out of me. 66 goals in 474 games - 7.1 games per goal and for Charlton 53 goals in 344 games - 6.5 games per goal. 

    Stockley ended last season as 14th best goal scorer in league one which improved to 8th when it came to goals per minutes played.  And that in a team that were all at sea for the greater part of the season.

    I appreciate that others will talk of the nuances of tactics and playing formations, but sometimes you just need someone to bang it in the net ... or as Bill Shankly famously said.

    "If you’re in the penalty area and aren’t quite sure what to do with the ball, stick it in the net and we’ll discuss your options afterwards!”
    I loved Shanks, my all time favourite manager.😏
  • A striker should be judged on the goals he scores rather than those he misses. Stockley's record is more than respectable and he contributes defensively too. 
  • A striker should be judged on the goals he scores rather than those he misses. Stockley's record is more than respectable and he contributes defensively too. 
    I'd be interested to see his record broken down by goals/game playing as a lone striker or as one of 2 up front. I think part of the concern is based on the impression that the respectability of his record is rooted in a formation we no longer play, and that there's a dearth of goals from our other attacking/midfield options so it becomes even more critical that he's on top form.
  • edited August 2022
    Possibly but he is still our best option. Maybe he shouldn't be but he is so we should probably look how to get the most from him and certainly he doesn't deserve any criticism. Personally I like him and he is one of the better strikers at this level.
  • seth plum said:
    seth plum said:
    xG…

    Sheff Wed 0.89 - 0.72 Charlton

    Fraser 3’ 0.10
    Clare 5’ 0.02
    Morgan 24’ 0.03
    Fraser 30’ 0.08
    Sessegnon 31’ 0.03
    Blackett-Taylor 40’ 0.22
    Windass 42’ 0.14
    Blackett-Taylor 47’ 0.02
    Blackett-Taylor 49’ 0.07
    Bannan 50’ 0.06
    Kirk 52’ 0.11
    Windass 52’ 0.03
    Morgan 57’ 0.03
    Payne 64’ 0.01
    Bakinson 81’ 0.27 (GOAL)
    Sow 87’ 0.11
    Windass 90+1’ 0.02
    Windass 90+1’ 0.08
    Are these map co-ordinates?
    Player - minute - probability of a goal (e.g. 0.1 = 10%)
    So in the third minute Fraser had a 10% chance of scoring a goal?
    And Bakinson in the 81st minute had a 0.27 chance of scoring a goal. Shouldn't that be 100% seeing as how he scored?
    Not quite. What if he headed it over the bar? Or straight at the goalkeeper? Hence 73% chance of a header from that range not resulting in a goal.

    27% is not zero. He controlled the header well and gave Wollacott no chance. Not every player would’ve been as composed in that situation.
     But he did. What's the point of expected goals then ?  A player in that position was expected to score  27% of the time. But Bakinson scored. In that position last week Stockley missed. What was his EG last week with that chance ?  27% ???. The problem with EG is that they dont take account who is in that position. If it was Shearer I'd say it was 100%. Stockley probably 30%. 
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  • EGs is a tool. It can't be totally accurate but helps inform alongside other data but it shouldn't be treated as gospel.
  • A striker should be judged on the goals he scores rather than those he misses. Stockley's record is more than respectable and he contributes defensively too. 
     A player is only as good as their last game.
  • Just seen the extended highlights. We'll get found out soon by coaches who will suss that Kirk and Stockley either cannot or do not like pressing, so target them and overlap to outnumber us from there onwards in attack. 
  • mendonca said:
    Just seen the extended highlights. We'll get found out soon by coaches who will suss that Kirk and Stockley either cannot or do not like pressing, so target them and overlap to outnumber us from there onwards in attack. 
    Kirk might not be here by the end of the window, and if he is I wouldn't assume he'll be a regular starter with JRS now here. Hopefully we bring a striker and Stockley's place won't be guaranteed either.
  • I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.

    You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.

    We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.

    Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.
  • xG is highly flawed and really shouldn’t be treated as a statistic. 
  • cs1986 said:
    Seen a couple of posts ‘suggesting’ Stockley was ill.
    I thought that was the case actually, as he appeared so listless from the start.
    Anyone got the exact info on this?
    Garner said it, in the post- match interview on Charlton TV. He used the phrase “under the weather”. I take that to mean a cold. They never say ‘ a cold’ in pro football circles, for reasons I discussed a page earlier. A couple of posters gave it an LOL without commenting further. I presume those two never played football even at Sunday League level and never swerved a visit to the Valley when they had colds.

    It also seems a number of posters are suffering from mild attention deficit disorder. For their benefit I remind everyone that Jayden Stockley last season reached 20 goals in all comps despite being injured for several weeks as well as suspended for 3 games after being stitched up by the pub team at Accrington. You’re welcome.
    I said 20 league goals something he has never achieved in his career at this level. Stockley will not score 20 this year.
    Bearing in mind the rare talent of a goal scorer I don't get the stick that Stockley gets.

    Stockley has scored 105 goals in his career 346 matches which is a respectable goal per 3.3 games.  For Charlton that figure improves to a goal every 2.7 games.

    Compare that to Leaburn senior who used to frustrate the hell out of me. 66 goals in 474 games - 7.1 games per goal and for Charlton 53 goals in 344 games - 6.5 games per goal. 

    Stockley ended last season as 14th best goal scorer in league one which improved to 8th when it came to goals per minutes played.  And that in a team that were all at sea for the greater part of the season.

    I appreciate that others will talk of the nuances of tactics and playing formations, but sometimes you just need someone to bang it in the net ... or as Bill Shankly famously said.

    "If you’re in the penalty area and aren’t quite sure what to do with the ball, stick it in the net and we’ll discuss your options afterwards!”
    That's not an accurate comparison though, as Stockley has played a lot of his football in the lower leagues. Of his 105 league goals, 57 were in L2 and 12 in non league. 

    Carlo played in either the 2nd tier or the top tier against far better defenders. 
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  • Leuth said:
    Yeah, Stockley wasn't great from what I saw, but Leaburn basically achieved nothing at all, which is fine, he was up against good defenders as a lone striker and he's very young, he'll have games like that
    Leaburn is a great prospect. But he is no where near ready to start games on a consistent basis or even come on as sub in games like yesterday where he was up against good, strong defenders .
    Spot on.
  • cs1986 said:
    Seen a couple of posts ‘suggesting’ Stockley was ill.
    I thought that was the case actually, as he appeared so listless from the start.
    Anyone got the exact info on this?
    Garner said it, in the post- match interview on Charlton TV. He used the phrase “under the weather”. I take that to mean a cold. They never say ‘ a cold’ in pro football circles, for reasons I discussed a page earlier. A couple of posters gave it an LOL without commenting further. I presume those two never played football even at Sunday League level and never swerved a visit to the Valley when they had colds.

    It also seems a number of posters are suffering from mild attention deficit disorder. For their benefit I remind everyone that Jayden Stockley last season reached 20 goals in all comps despite being injured for several weeks as well as suspended for 3 games after being stitched up by the pub team at Accrington. You’re welcome.
    I said 20 league goals something he has never achieved in his career at this level. Stockley will not score 20 this year.
    Bearing in mind the rare talent of a goal scorer I don't get the stick that Stockley gets.

    Stockley has scored 105 goals in his career 346 matches which is a respectable goal per 3.3 games.  For Charlton that figure improves to a goal every 2.7 games.

    Compare that to Leaburn senior who used to frustrate the hell out of me. 66 goals in 474 games - 7.1 games per goal and for Charlton 53 goals in 344 games - 6.5 games per goal. 

    Stockley ended last season as 14th best goal scorer in league one which improved to 8th when it came to goals per minutes played.  And that in a team that were all at sea for the greater part of the season.

    I appreciate that others will talk of the nuances of tactics and playing formations, but sometimes you just need someone to bang it in the net ... or as Bill Shankly famously said.

    "If you’re in the penalty area and aren’t quite sure what to do with the ball, stick it in the net and we’ll discuss your options afterwards!”
    I get your point. I wasn't bothered that Stockley missed two headers against Derby because I know over the course of the season he will put enough away. Getting the chances is the most important thing. I was bothered that CBT messed up his chance yesterday, even though he scored against Derby because over the course of the season I think he will miss too many.

    I wouldn't drop CBT btw. He is a key player for us but we need look elsewhere for anything above 4-5 goals.
    We’ve been told by many that the likes of CBT, Fraser, Payne, McGrandles, Kirk, DJ, Morgan etc will chip in enough goals to make up for the lack of a second striker but there has been no evidence of this so far.
  • Jac_52 said:
    I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.

    You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.

    We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.

    Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.

    He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
    If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.

    Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.

    Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.

    The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.

    It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.


    I wondered why on Saturday with Stockley ill we didn’t just play with a false number 9, say Payne, which would have surely suited our passing game. Better than playing someone who wasn’t up to it. 
    I watched the extended highlights and Stockley looked well off the pace, regularly out of position.

    I think you are spot on, if we are playing a possession game then why not play a false 9 and encourage the wide players to run in behind?

    I just don't see the value of playing a bloke that is clearly unwell.
  • se9addick said:
    xG is highly flawed and really shouldn’t be treated as a statistic. 
    What are the main flaws?
  • Jac_52 said:
    I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.

    You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.

    We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.

    Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.

    He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
    If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.

    Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.

    Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.

    The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.

    It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.


    I wondered why on Saturday with Stockley ill we didn’t just play with a false number 9, say Payne, which would have surely suited our passing game. Better than playing someone who wasn’t up to it. 
    I think we should do this anyway
  • edited August 2022
    Jacko tried to solve the issue by playing two strikers. It is a balancing act but you could have a striker playing wide like we have done with Leaburn from the bench. It would require more from the right full back or indeed the left one if you play a striker on the left of the three.

    I think Ormiston has nailed the issue though, for the 4-3-3 to work there needs to be enough goals from the wide men or if that fails, the midfield/accross the team. The records of the players to date suggest that isn't the case and the only player who has proven he can get the required number is the one everybody is criticising at the moment.

    If we play Payne as a false 9, where are the goals going to come within the team? Not sure if the glaring problem is solved. Surely the easiest way is to bring the 20 or so goals we are short of in one chunk but not at the expense of Stockley because we can't afford to lose his goals.
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