I’m not surprised CM wishes to retreat from his remark about reducing the operating loss to £1m-£2m and offsetting that with player trading, but I don’t believe him. Why would the interviewer make it up?
it’s also hard to see how you could take out £2m of non-football cost when much of it is fixed (like the rent) and you’ve added the purchase of retail stock and overheads. You could only cut that much by removing people and the club seems to have added them at management level. Most of the non-playing staff cost is football staff. But the numbers will come out in time.
Average losses in this division don’t tell you anything much because of the disparity in size of clubs. Stevenage and Crawley bear no relation to Bolton and Charlton, never mind Birmingham.
The be like Brighton and Brentford comparison was, in part, in reference to them being net sellers eg getting more in sales than they spend on transfers, so not sure that idea has gone away.
Most clubs are run like that. Where we've been bad at is selling players at a high price and replacing them with cheaper players, who end up just as good.
In 19/20, Brentford's excellent strike force was Benrahma, Watkins and Mbeumo. After they just missed out on promotion the first 2 were sold for big fees, but they brought in Toney for far less, and he scored 31 goals as they went up.
I’m not surprised CM wishes to retreat from his remark about reducing the operating loss to £1m-£2m and offsetting that with player trading, but I don’t believe him. Why would the interviewer make it up?
it’s also hard to see how you could take out £2m of non-football cost when much of it is fixed (like the rent) and you’ve added the purchase of retail stock and overheads. You could only cut that much by removing people and the club seems to have added them at management level. Most of the non-playing staff cost is football staff. But the numbers will come out in time.
Average losses in this division don’t tell you anything much because of the disparity in size of clubs. Stevenage and Crawley bear no relation to Bolton and Charlton, never mind Birmingham.
The be like Brighton and Brentford comparison was, in part, in reference to them being net sellers eg getting more in sales than they spend on transfers, so not sure that idea has gone away.
Most clubs are run like that. Where we've been bad at is selling players at a high price and replacing them with cheaper players, who end up just as good.
In 19/20, Brentford's excellent strike force was Benrahma, Watkins and Mbeumo. After they just missed out on promotion the first 2 were sold for big fees, but they brought in Toney for far less, and he scored 31 goals as they went up.
Not sure most clubs are run like that but agree we've not spend money from sales well.
I've plonked this here because the thread is getting read and because I thought it shed some new light on Mr Methven.
After the Birmingham match, Paddy Powell said to me "Did you see Charlie?" I said, "No, why?" He said "Well at the end of the game he ran straight out of the front of the directors' box and down on to the pitch to celebrate with the players and manager". I've since seen the video evidence of him down there and being hugged by one of the players.
That's all.
Of course, more traditionally he is supposed to be handshaking and commiserating with the away directors. His actions don't seem to me to be those of someone who doesn't really care about the club and rather indicates that his "skin in the game" is a little bit more than just financial.
I've plonked this here because the thread is getting read and because I thought it shed some new light on Mr Methven.
After the Birmingham match, Paddy Powell said to me "Did you see Charlie?" I said, "No, why?" He said "Well at the end of the game he ran straight out of the front of the directors' box and down on to the pitch to celebrate with the players and manager". I've since seen the video evidence of him down there and being hugged by one of the players.
That's all.
Of course, more traditionally he is supposed to be handshaking and commiserating with the away directors. His actions don't seem to me to be those of someone who doesn't really care about the club and rather indicates that his "skin in the game" is a little bit more than just financial.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
As an example they might quote total playing wages, total transfer fees and say sponsorship income?
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
Seems unlikely as surely it can be changed? If we suddenly sold someone for £1m in January our budget would increase
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
So you are saying it’s their forecast spend for the current season?
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
Seems unlikely as surely it can be changed? If we suddenly sold someone for £1m in January our budget would increase
But the previous years budget would be even less accurate.
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
Seems unlikely as surely it can be changed? If we suddenly sold someone for £1m in January our budget would increase
But the previous years budget would be even less accurate.
I think most clubs ' budgets are pretty stable. Both have their inaccuracies and issues
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player. ***Edit, wtf is he on the pitch? Good grief.
I've plonked this here because the thread is getting read and because I thought it shed some new light on Mr Methven.
After the Birmingham match, Paddy Powell said to me "Did you see Charlie?" I said, "No, why?" He said "Well at the end of the game he ran straight out of the front of the directors' box and down on to the pitch to celebrate with the players and manager". I've since seen the video evidence of him down there and being hugged by one of the players.
That's all.
Of course, more traditionally he is supposed to be handshaking and commiserating with the away directors. His actions don't seem to me to be those of someone who doesn't really care about the club and rather indicates that his "skin in the game" is a little bit more than just financial.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
I know who pays my wages, I would say hello to them in the office and they'd ask me some basic things about my life. That's a good thing, it's nice to know my employer pays some attention to me. It's the same thing.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Let's give it two years and continue this conversation.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Let's give it two years and continue this conversation.
Thanks for such a comprehensive write up @Henry Irving, very generous and collaborative spirit on display there 😉. If you could pin things on here as you can on Twitter profiles, I'd suggest it should be this comment from CM:
"The EFL provide us with all the other teams budgets in October so we'll know for sure than but based on previous figures we're 4th in first team budget and 5th in wages."
Still curious what the definition of ‘budget’ is in this context.
Their forecast for the coming season on some key metrics or actual /management accounts for last season or something else?
Also not sure why it’s shared or how it is used.
Interesting regardless.
I know something about this. I've mentioned this before so apologies to others who've read it before!
A few years back when I was on the Trust board I went to interview Erik Samuelson, the AFCW fan who was a finance bod and then CEO. He told me about it. The EFL clubs had agreed to share it, but only by division. He explained that it was very useful to set his own player wage budget. It helped them set a budget that would be 4th lowest in the division (then L1) and gave the manager a big incentive to finish 5th bottom. He turned his laptop screen towards me for a nano-second, just eneough for me to see it existed.
But that was I think 8 years ago, and I couldn't remember more details of how it was done, and now CM has filled in the gaps. It is basically the operating budget they submit, and it sounds like their cost-line descriptions are agreed for consistency. The clubs are anonymised but CEO's can guess. Especially this year for club no.1.
Now obviously clubs have to set their budgets for the coming season before this comes out so they use the previous season's data, making their own guesses about the changes based on who was promoted/relegated, and any other info such as new splashy ownership (or new distress, e.g.Reading).
I think it's an excellent idea myself.
Thank you.
So to be clear each club shares its actual from last season on some pre defined categories / basis of calculation?
I think it's the budget for the current season that is shared in October
So you are saying it’s their forecast spend for the current season?
Yes, the budget. Similar to whát nearly all businesses produce.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Let's give it two years and continue this conversation.
Where do these academy ratings come from , on what basis is it worked out . Would Lookman be considered part of our successful academy ? I mean whatever and how amazing the academy is our first team have been utter dog poo for years , surely as a club we should have been doing better on the field first team wise with an academy that’s apparently so successful in the rankings
There is a school of thought that the success / investment in the academy has been to the detriment of the first team over recent years - not saying i agree or disagree with that but i've heard it said quite a few times from people in and around the club and chopping the numbers / costs suggests that its a theory that hasn't been completely dismissed by our owners. We are rightly proud of our academy and i think the new owners are genuine in their ambitions for it but a bit of re shaping with the view to it benefiting the first team more may be under way?? I can't help thinking the women's team could also be vulnerable to a 'prune'
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Let's give it two years and continue this conversation.
Watch the video and he's just stood next to Tracey Leaburn clapping the players off until A Mitchell and Aneke come by and give him a hug, it's really not a big deal and I'd much rather our players know the higher ups than have no idea who they are.
Players do not need to know the directors imo, they are of no importance to a player.
Yeah because it's a well known fact that clubs where Directors / Owners / Senior management have no connections to the playing staff whatsoever, are that much more successful
Let's give it two years and continue this conversation.
Comments
probably.
In 19/20, Brentford's excellent strike force was Benrahma, Watkins and Mbeumo. After they just missed out on promotion the first 2 were sold for big fees, but they brought in Toney for far less, and he scored 31 goals as they went up.
After the Birmingham match, Paddy Powell said to me "Did you see Charlie?" I said, "No, why?" He said "Well at the end of the game he ran straight out of the front of the directors' box and down on to the pitch to celebrate with the players and manager". I've since seen the video evidence of him down there and being hugged by one of the players.
That's all.
Of course, more traditionally he is supposed to be handshaking and commiserating with the away directors. His actions don't seem to me to be those of someone who doesn't really care about the club and rather indicates that his "skin in the game" is a little bit more than just financial.
Anyway, thanks for the write up @Henry Irving.
Keep your bum on the seat in the directors box ffs.
As an example they might quote total playing wages, total transfer fees and say sponsorship income?
***Edit, wtf is he on the pitch? Good grief.
I do take your point as an aside.
🤣