The modern game is about closing down not merely retaining shape. When JJ gets there the ball has gone. Without his goals it's like playing with ten men.
jackson was a passenger yesterday it was more noticeable once his protection Buyons went off . Plus he had two great chances that two years ago he would have got to .... His time is up at this level and with the Arsenal kid looking a good player he must be Jackson replacement
It's not coincident that the period in the game yesterday when we went flat and not much happened was when Jackson was tiring after putting in an absolute shift! Does all the unseen stuff and does it very well! You have to specifically watch him to see all that he does! I do think sometimes when we have the ball and are looking to bring it put of defence he could make himself available more.. also bob is the third consecutive manager that has rated him highly and played him in almost every game! Fourth if you include parky who brought him to the club! They can't all be wrong??
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
It's not coincident that the period in the game yesterday when we went flat and not much happened was when Jackson was tiring after putting in an absolute shift! Does all the unseen stuff and does it very well! You have to specifically watch him to see all that he does! I do think sometimes when we have the ball and are looking to bring it put of defence he could make himself available more.. also bob is the third consecutive manager that has rated him highly and played him in almost every game! Fourth if you include parky who brought him to the club! They can't all be wrong??
Agree.
Didn't John Bumstead play under 7 different managers at Chelsea - same again, they can't all be wrong.
I'm not generally a huge defender of Jacko, but I thought he had a much better game than Cousins yesterday. Imo, on current form, it is Cousins who needs to come out of the team for a bit of a rest, assuming Jacko, Buyens and Coquelin are all available. No shame in that though, a player as young as him is due a dip in form at somepoint.
It's not coincident that the period in the game yesterday when we went flat and not much happened was when Jackson was tiring after putting in an absolute shift! Does all the unseen stuff and does it very well! You have to specifically watch him to see all that he does! I do think sometimes when we have the ball and are looking to bring it put of defence he could make himself available more.. also bob is the third consecutive manager that has rated him highly and played him in almost every game! Fourth if you include parky who brought him to the club! They can't all be wrong??
Yes overall you would be a fool to argue that he's been nothing but class, just didn't think he was up to much yesterday.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Sooner or later, Jackson's critics will be right and he will appear in the team less. But right now we are running a thin squad which has seen a big step change last summer. He hasn't just made the cut, he's the captain! And leadership means something out there on the field. We were missing leadership for too many years but it's there now with the spine of the team pretty decent. Bikey, Ben Haim and Jackson are running the show for now and the fact we are just twice defeated tells a story. Maybe next season there will be further changes...and they may be harsh as well as hard to execute. One would hope that the Pardew era would have taught us all this but still some want overnight success.
Sooner or later, Jackson's critics will be right and he will appear in the team less. But right now we are running a thin squad which has seen a big step change last summer. He hasn't just made the cut, he's the captain! And leadership means something out there on the field. We were missing leadership for too many years but it's there now with the spine of the team pretty decent. Bikey, Ben Haim and Jackson are running the show for now and the fact we are just twice defeated tells a story. Maybe next season there will be further changes...and they may be harsh as well as hard to execute. One would hope that the Pardew era would have taught us all this but still some want overnight success.
This...
Also that last sentence is very true! I'm happy with continuous improvement over a few years..
jackson was a passenger yesterday it was more noticeable once his protection Buyons went off . Plus he had two great chances that two years ago he would have got to .... His time is up at this level and with the Arsenal kid looking a good player he must be Jackson replacement
The 'Arsenal kid' is only here for a month, and that's the difference. Jacko has served this club, he has stuck around and given his all. That's what I hate about fickle football fans.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I thought he had a quiet game, but then people say he did a lot of work you don't notice unless you're on the pitch. My comments were specific to this game, some of the people that have defended him have again talked about it in a more general sense. I get that and my argument wasn't aimed at his overall contribution to Charlton. It's proven to be first class.
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
Jackson is a player whose contribution comes in 'moments' rather than overall flow of the game. He isn't going to be a player who strings all our possession together, nor one who takes on players with skill.
However, had that chance at the end fallen to someone like Jackson instead of George, I'm confident we would be bumping up threads about what a great captain he is right now.
jackson was a passenger yesterday it was more noticeable once his protection Buyons went off . Plus he had two great chances that two years ago he would have got to .... His time is up at this level and with the Arsenal kid looking a good player he must be Jackson replacement
You don't like Jackson?...Why didn't you say something...
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I thought he had a quiet game, but then people say he did a lot of work you don't notice unless you're on the pitch. My comments were specific to this game, some of the people that have defended him have again talked about it in a more general sense. I get that and my argument wasn't aimed at his overall contribution to Charlton. It's proven to be first class.
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
How did they see it then?
I don't mind people sticking up for players when they come in for unnecessary criticism but imo (and quite a few others) he was one of our worst players on Saturday.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I thought he had a quiet game, but then people say he did a lot of work you don't notice unless you're on the pitch. My comments were specific to this game, some of the people that have defended him have again talked about it in a more general sense. I get that and my argument wasn't aimed at his overall contribution to Charlton. It's proven to be first class.
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
How did they see it then?
I don't mind people sticking up for players when they come in for unnecessary criticism but imo (and quite a few others) he was one of our worst players on Saturday.
I too thought he had a poor game, hence the bump. I'm also of the opinion that every time I or someone raises he had a poor game, we end up talking about him from a general perspective.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I thought he had a quiet game, but then people say he did a lot of work you don't notice unless you're on the pitch. My comments were specific to this game, some of the people that have defended him have again talked about it in a more general sense. I get that and my argument wasn't aimed at his overall contribution to Charlton. It's proven to be first class.
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
How did they see it then?
I don't mind people sticking up for players when they come in for unnecessary criticism but imo (and quite a few others) he was one of our worst players on Saturday.
I too thought he had a poor game, hence the bump. I'm also of the opinion that every time I or someone raises he had a poor game, we end up talking about him from a general perspective.
I think if you bump a thread that states he is no longer required in the team (come in no 4), then it is likely to be expanding on the earlier debate regarding his place in the team, so more likely to discuss him from a general perspective.
If you thought he had a poor game, mention it in the post-match thread.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
As I said I'm generally in the pro JJ camp but I don't think he had a good game as is shown by the marks in the player marks thread. Or is everyone else wrong?
I thought he had a quiet game, but then people say he did a lot of work you don't notice unless you're on the pitch. My comments were specific to this game, some of the people that have defended him have again talked about it in a more general sense. I get that and my argument wasn't aimed at his overall contribution to Charlton. It's proven to be first class.
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
How did they see it then?
I don't mind people sticking up for players when they come in for unnecessary criticism but imo (and quite a few others) he was one of our worst players on Saturday.
I too thought he had a poor game, hence the bump. I'm also of the opinion that every time I or someone raises he had a poor game, we end up talking about him from a general perspective.
I think if you bump a thread that states he is no longer required in the team (come in no 4), then it is likely to be expanding on the earlier debate regarding his place in the team, so more likely to discuss him from a general perspective.
If you thought he had a poor game, mention it in the post-match thread.
But then if I state 'Controversially bumping this here, but I didn't even notice him until he got subbed yesterday.'
I would hope people realise that I am taking into his account his overall (excellent) contribution to the club, but commenting on his performance in the Millwall game.
To be fair, could've put it in either. I don't necessarily blame people for turning it into a general debate, and I think it is more down to our @colin1961 and his passionate love of our JJ that leads people to turn it into a general debate;-)
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
Neither but it does mean he was involved and that he made some tackles
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
he got there as soon as he could.
I think that's the point. He's fouling quite a lot these days and it might just be because his timing has gone at this level. That said, he still does a great job defending corners (bangs those headers away at the near post) and could still get goals in tight games. His finishing ability is excellent and he takes a great number of his chances.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
he got there as soon as he could.
I think that's the point. He's fouling quite a lot these days and it might just be because his timing has gone at this level. That said, he still does a great job defending corners (bangs those headers away at the near post) and could still get goals in tight games. His finishing ability is excellent and he takes a great number of his chances.
Yet it is the much younger Buyens who has been booked 6 times already, and so banned.
JJ was never fast so he had no pace to lose.
He is one of the older players and it makes sense to sub him off sometimes to bring on fresh legs
Sometime he will lose his place in the first time and be replaced. That is no great wisdom as that happens to every player.
What is strange is that some have been predicting, and in some case wishing and hoping, that this would happen for at least three seasons now.
It was because he was Powell's favourite we were told.
Yet there he is. Still captain, still starting under Riga and now Peeters. Still doing his job, still coming up with the odd goal, still working hard and pulling the team along, still tackling and still passing.
Or not tackling and the worst pass accuracy on the team on Saturday.
But he did tackle on Saturday. I was there and I saw him do it.
I don't think he had a particularly good game v Millwall but every one less than brilliant performance brings out the "Come in No 4 your time is up" posts.
As Ben18 said, if it's about one game put it on the post-match views thread rather than on here.
I know it isn't always that reliable but whoscored reckon he didn't make a tackle yesterday. Can't say I remember any either. I've generally defended him in the past but I don't think it was a good performance from him. That's not to say I wouldn't want him playing the majority of games but some on here need to take the blinkers off.
He took at least 3 Millwall players out with hard challenges in the first half,the ref had a word with him after the third. Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
Does that make him a great player? Or a yard off the pace?
he got there as soon as he could.
I think that's the point. He's fouling quite a lot these days and it might just be because his timing has gone at this level. That said, he still does a great job defending corners (bangs those headers away at the near post) and could still get goals in tight games. His finishing ability is excellent and he takes a great number of his chances.
Yet it is the much younger Buyens who has been booked 6 times already, and so banned.
JJ was never fast so he had no pace to lose.
He is one of the older players and it makes sense to sub him off sometimes to bring on fresh legs
Sometime he will lose his place in the first time and be replaced. That is no great wisdom as that happens to every player.
What is strange is that some have been predicting, and in some case wishing and hoping, that this would happen for at least three seasons now.
It was because he was Powell's favourite we were told.
Yet there he is. Still captain, still starting under Riga and now Peeters. Still doing his job, still coming up with the odd goal, still working hard and pulling the team along, still tackling and still passing.
I find it a circular argument when it comes to JJ. I was very critical of him a few seasons back because I felt he was being played in a role that exposed us in central midfield, and we weren't seeing the consistency he had in league one.
Based on his performances and goals, leadership etc I am happy to admit that I was wrong to be so vehement in my criticism, so have, over time, tried to take a more balanced approach.
He's done so many great things for this club.
However, I definitely do not feel it is a case of hoping/wishing for his time to come to an end or for him to have a bad game. I genuinely feel that in the same way you say people are waiting for him to have a poor game, some of our support never want to criticise him.
Or if he is criticised, then there seems to be an immediate phalanx ready to abolish any contrary opinion.
I get that the title of this thread was on balance probably unfair (given the contribution JJ has, and continues to make). But he's not immune from criticism. I thought he was terrible at home to Wolves this season and they seemed to play through him with ease.
Overall I'm happy to admit I was wrong in my earlier criticism, he is a great player who has done well for us. But I also feel there is a slightly 'blinkered' opinion when it comes to his performances
What about player threads that are bumped after one of them has a good game though? Or should we make a thread for JJ titled "JJ had a bad game on Saturday (not the come in no 4 your time is up) thread"?
Come on be sensible about it, the majority of the comments made since Saturday are not about wanted him dropped completely but it seems those who want to defend it are reading something different.
Comments
, we all see it different
Didn't John Bumstead play under 7 different managers at Chelsea - same again, they can't all be wrong.
Maybe his critics were struggling to get their blinkers off when that happened.
And leadership means something out there on the field.
We were missing leadership for too many years but it's there now with the spine of the team pretty decent.
Bikey, Ben Haim and Jackson are running the show for now and the fact we are just twice defeated tells a story. Maybe next season there will be further changes...and they may be harsh as well as hard to execute.
One would hope that the Pardew era would have taught us all this but still some want overnight success.
Also that last sentence is very true! I'm happy with continuous improvement over a few years..
Seems it's very difficult to focus on the performance over 90 minutes with him, sometimes it turns into a wider debate about him in general.
However, had that chance at the end fallen to someone like Jackson instead of George, I'm confident we would be bumping up threads about what a great captain he is right now.
I don't mind people sticking up for players when they come in for unnecessary criticism but imo (and quite a few others) he was one of our worst players on Saturday.
If you thought he had a poor game, mention it in the post-match thread.
I would hope people realise that I am taking into his account his overall (excellent) contribution to the club, but commenting on his performance in the Millwall game.
To be fair, could've put it in either. I don't necessarily blame people for turning it into a general debate, and I think it is more down to our @colin1961 and his passionate love of our JJ that leads people to turn it into a general debate;-)
JJ was never fast so he had no pace to lose.
He is one of the older players and it makes sense to sub him off sometimes to bring on fresh legs
Sometime he will lose his place in the first time and be replaced. That is no great wisdom as that happens to every player.
What is strange is that some have been predicting, and in some case wishing and hoping, that this would happen for at least three seasons now.
It was because he was Powell's favourite we were told.
Yet there he is. Still captain, still starting under Riga and now Peeters. Still doing his job, still coming up with the odd goal, still working hard and pulling the team along, still tackling and still passing.
I don't think he had a particularly good game v Millwall but every one less than brilliant performance brings out the "Come in No 4 your time is up" posts.
As Ben18 said, if it's about one game put it on the post-match views thread rather than on here.
Based on his performances and goals, leadership etc I am happy to admit that I was wrong to be so vehement in my criticism, so have, over time, tried to take a more balanced approach.
He's done so many great things for this club.
However, I definitely do not feel it is a case of hoping/wishing for his time to come to an end or for him to have a bad game. I genuinely feel that in the same way you say people are waiting for him to have a poor game, some of our support never want to criticise him.
Or if he is criticised, then there seems to be an immediate phalanx ready to abolish any contrary opinion.
I get that the title of this thread was on balance probably unfair (given the contribution JJ has, and continues to make). But he's not immune from criticism. I thought he was terrible at home to Wolves this season and they seemed to play through him with ease.
Overall I'm happy to admit I was wrong in my earlier criticism, he is a great player who has done well for us. But I also feel there is a slightly 'blinkered' opinion when it comes to his performances
Come on be sensible about it, the majority of the comments made since Saturday are not about wanted him dropped completely but it seems those who want to defend it are reading something different.