Another Shooting In America?
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Countries need leaders that citizens can look up to for direction, clarity, empathy and trust. None of those four can be attributed to many, if any, US politicians, least of all Trump.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Trump proves he is morally bankrupt once again with his trite comments.
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Because they have all the guns!Stu_of_Kunming said:
Walmart!NapaAddick said:17 dead, 15 injured. How the hell did an ex-student, age 18, get an AR-15?
Then why is nothing ever done about it, why dont we see mass protests on the streets of Washington, why do you allow your country to be held hostage by a group like the NRA?SDAddick said:
It was Sandy Hook. That was just over 5 years ago. Since then there have been ~300 school shootings alone.Stu_of_Kunming said:
At what point do you think it'd be time for you to do something about it though?SDAddick said:Officials are reporting that he used an assault-style gun. Because those are legal. What can ya do? The NRA is an incredibly strong lobbying group with ties to Russia now. They propagate fear not just of the government taking your guns but so of black and brown people. I don't think anything will be done about this for a long time, and personally I'm pretty numb to it at this point.
This is what really bothers me about the entire situation, the amount of Americans who don't agree, yet shrug their shoulders and carry on. There must be a tipping point, surely?
By the way, this is not a something that dies because of a lack of public support. Bans on assault weapons, background checks, and a Federal registry of guns polled at around 80% favorable in the wake of the Vegas shooting last year. This is down to a small, vocal, and well funded minority. And Democrats are absolutely terrified of the NRA in House, State, and local elections.
This is someone who was widely considered a rising star in the Democratic Party a couple years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wqOApBLPio
(By you, I obviously don't mean you as an individual)
(There's a long, intricate answer here and I'm not trying to be flippant with you Stu but it's like 4:15 in the morning the day after 17 kids went to school and died and this is the best I can do).0 -
NRA are trying to ban schools.
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Perhaps not the US shooters, but I suspect you remember the murderers names from Dunblane (almost 12 years ago) and Hungerford (31 years ago this summer).LargeAddick said:
without looking it up I couldn't remember any of the perps names. There are so many of these incidents in the States their notoriety lasts for a matter of days before you move on to the next one.thenewbie said:
It's not an either/or situation though. The shooter gets discussed at length, gets remembered... Its the killers' names associated with Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Aurora and all the number of others. But without looking it up, who here could name any single one victim of any of these shootings?LargeAddick said:
a campaign to limit the exposure shooters get as opposed to a campaign to eradicate such events. says it all really.Wilma said:There's a good series on Sky Atlantic at the moment called Active Shooter - https://www.sky.com/watch/title/series/ccaaad18-2721-483e-a9c2-2c497f42d4a2/active-shooter/episodes/season-1/episode-1 - looking into these mass shooting events, usually from relatives, people involved, medical and police etc.
The first episode featured parents of a man killed in the cinema shooting at Aurora. They have launched a campaign called No Notoriety - https://nonotoriety.com/ - trying to limit the coverage that the shooters get on TV. A lot of copycat shootings occur shortly after mass shooting events due to the 'fame' these individuals get.
The infamy and notoriety appeals to a certain frame of mind, taking that away certainly wouldn't make these killings any MORE frequent.0 -
If I were the parent of a child murdered in circumstances such as these I am not sure what would prevent me from, in due course, buying an assault rifle and gradually picking off the influential morons who have consistently voted against any kind of gun reform in the face of massacre after massacre.
Live by the gun...
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Starting with Wayne LaPierreIdleHans said:If I were the parent of a child murdered in circumstances such as these I am not sure what would prevent me from, in due course, buying an assault rifle and gradually picking off the influential morons who have consistently voted against any kind of gun reform in the face of massacre after massacre.
Live by the gun...0 -
Sadly there are many deluded people in The United States who think preying is the only solution and that's when it does becomes harmful.JWADDICK said:
Can't hurt can it?ValleyGary said:Lots of people sending prayers. That’ll help.
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During that interview with piers Morgan he came out with if we had guns we would be able to stop all the terror attacks where guns were involved. Unless I've completely missed or forgot, how many attacks has there been in this country involving guns?
Bloke supports gun ownership and comes out with complete NRA propaganda to support it. under his leadership there's no chance of things changing. Even if there was a huge incident. Not like any of these aren't huge.
Kids die but nothing but a few words of condolence. He doesn't want to tackle the problem and I doubt any in leadership in the past or future want to tackle it.1 -
If only the US could use a tragedy like this to make an actual change in gun laws, as happened in the UK after the Dunblane killings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/dunblane-s-snowdrops-how-school-shooting-changed-british-gun-laws-n5356710 - Sponsored links:
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I've heard that argument and it's Ludicrous. If guns were legal here terrorists would use them. Using the London Bridge attack as an example, where 8 innocents died, a lot less than last night. 3 men come into a pub and start spraying people with machine guns, people will be shot before they are able to pull their guns out and shoot back with what I guess would be pistols. Death count would be far higher but try explaining that to an American.Karim_myBagheri said:During that interview with piers Morgan he came out with if we had guns we would be able to stop all the terror attacks where guns were involved. Unless I've completely missed or forgot, how many attacks has there been in this country involving guns?
Bloke supports gun ownership and comes out with complete NRA propaganda to support it. under his leadership there's no chance of things changing. Even if there was a huge incident. Not like any of these aren't huge.
Kids die but nothing but a few words of condolence. He doesn't want to tackle the problem and I doubt any in leadership in the past or future want to tackle it.1 -
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Don't forget Port Arthur massacre and gun banning in Australia. Both after this and Dunblane there was opposition from gun owners. Takes some real leadership, which major and Blair delivered to their credit.
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Another lunatic comment from Trump.
"So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!"
He was known to FBI last year after someobody saw comments he posted on You Tube, yet the authorities did nothing.
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Here's a thought Mr Trump, instead of trying to remove health cover from millions of Americans, how about you make mental health cover free for all. If all the mass shootings by "mentally disturbed" individuals can't be blamed on guns, then that only leaves their mental health, no?9
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More importantly, Obama legislation that attempted to make it harder for people with mental illnesses to obtain weapons was overturned by Trump.IT_Andy said:Another lunatic comment from Trump.
"So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!"
He was known to FBI last year after someobody saw comments he posted on You Tube, yet the authorities did nothing.
What a f*cking disgrace the man is.11 -
If I ever move to the States, I'm going to mount a couple of these mothers either side of my front door
M134 General Electric Minigun
Automatic weapons aren’t legal anymore, right? Well, sort of. Laws prohibit ordinary citizens from owning any fully automatic rifle made after 1986. This puppy sneaks in just under the wire, and if you’re looking for a device that spits hot death at an insane rate, here it is. The M134 has a capacity of 166 shots per second, and packs so much recoil that you’d rip your arms off if you tried to hold it and shoot.0 -
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.6 -
They might as well, most Americans grow up pig ignorant anyway.Friend Or Defoe said:NRA are trying to ban schools.
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I’m sorry. Guns do kill people and suggesting that in the hands of responsible people they would be harmless is just lunatic.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
Come off cloud nine where guns are tools and visit planet America where you couldn’t find a responsible person if you looked for ever.
Sort of.
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A tiny bit of a whoosh there, SHG - Hoof it doesn't always mean what he says as far as Trump is concerned!!ShootersHillGuru said:
I’m sorry. Guns do kill people and suggesting that in the hands of responsible people they would be harmless is just lunatic.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
Come off cloud nine where guns are tools and visit planet America where you couldn’t find a responsible person if you looked for ever.
Sort of.2 -
Hangs head in shame1
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Not exactly true, over 50 people were shot by toddlers in the US last year. The number of children accidentally killed, or who accidentally killed other was 120 in 1998, and presumably has risen in line with population (can't find recent figures). These are all deaths that literally only happened because of guns, i.e. none were because the killer wanted to kill and would have found a way to do it with or without guns existing.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
From those figures we can see that accidental gun deaths caused by under 16s in the US is more than double the total gun deaths in the UK.
Guns might not kill people, but they allow people to kill people completely accidentally, and when it's not an accident they allow death to metered out more quickly, easily and from a greater distance, than any other method available to the general populace.1 -
Always the throw away line trotted out. If you change guns to cars. Cars dont kill people, people kill people. However if I was to accidentally run into someone while out jogging they may well fall over and scuff their hands/elbows, but if I accidentally drive my car into someone.....!randy andy said:
Not exactly true, over 50 people were shot by toddlers in the US last year. The number of children accidentally killed, or who accidentally killed other was 120 in 1998, and presumably has risen in line with population (can't find recent figures). These are all deaths that literally only happened because of guns, i.e. none were because the killer wanted to kill and would have found a way to do it with or without guns existing.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
From those figures we can see that accidental gun deaths caused by under 16s in the US is more than double the total gun deaths in the UK.
Guns might not kill people, but they allow people to kill people completely accidentally, and when it's not an accident they allow death to metered out more quickly, easily and from a greater distance, than any other method available to the general populace.
No one other than the military needs to own a live automatic military based firearm, no one!6 -
I was trying to argue in the style of Trump and the NRA! Very easy to construct a nonsensical argument...bobmunro said:
A tiny bit of a whoosh there, SHG - Hoof it doesn't always mean what he says as far as Trump is concerned!!ShootersHillGuru said:
I’m sorry. Guns do kill people and suggesting that in the hands of responsible people they would be harmless is just lunatic.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
Come off cloud nine where guns are tools and visit planet America where you couldn’t find a responsible person if you looked for ever.
Sort of.3 -
I'd ban toddlers anyway.2
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You OK matey? Your whoooosh radar is definitely in sleep mode recently.ShootersHillGuru said:Hangs head in shame
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hoof_it has been doing his Jonathan Swift thing for ages, amazed it still gets whooshes0
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This is an excellent point, and something I wanted to talk about. There are a lot of reasons for mass shootings in this country, chief amongst them the easy availability and massive quantiles of weapons, including semi automatic assault weapons.randy andy said:Here's a thought Mr Trump, instead of trying to remove health cover from millions of Americans, how about you make mental health cover free for all. If all the mass shootings by "mentally disturbed" individuals can't be blamed on guns, then that only leaves their mental health, no?
But there are also definitely instances where shooters have a documented history of mental illness, as seems to be the case with this young man. Now, Obama was able to sign an EO that made it harder for people with mental health problems to get a gun, but Trump overturned that. But you're absolutely right in that there is also a larger, underlying problem here is the lack of access to mental health care in this country.
The ACA made it so that every insurance plan has to cover mental health care, which is definitely a good thing. But the problem remains that coverage, let alone things like payments for office visits are incredibly expensive. And, as I can tell you from personal experience, because there has been a large expansion in the number of people who now have mental health care in the last 3-4 years, it's increasingly hard to even find doctors who are taking new patients.
It sounds like this young man had some tell tale signs that lead to violence, namely killing animals, which you see a lot in the childhooda of serial killers. It sounds like he was getting some mental health help, but early reports are that he stopped going to a facility about a year ago. It's obviously very early to know with him, but again I can tell you from personal experience it is SO easy to fall through the cracks in the American health care system, and that is especially true with mental health care.0
