Here's a thought Mr Trump, instead of trying to remove health cover from millions of Americans, how about you make mental health cover free for all. If all the mass shootings by "mentally disturbed" individuals can't be blamed on guns, then that only leaves their mental health, no?
This is an excellent point, and something I wanted to talk about. There are a lot of reasons for mass shootings in this country, chief amongst them the easy availability and massive quantiles of weapons, including semi automatic assault weapons.
But there are also definitely instances where shooters have a documented history of mental illness, as seems to be the case with this young man. Now, Obama was able to sign an EO that made it harder for people with mental health problems to get a gun, but Trump overturned that. But you're absolutely right in that there is also a larger, underlying problem here is the lack of access to mental health care in this country.
The ACA made it so that every insurance plan has to cover mental health care, which is definitely a good thing. But the problem remains that coverage, let alone things like payments for office visits are incredibly expensive. And, as I can tell you from personal experience, because there has been a large expansion in the number of people who now have mental health care in the last 3-4 years, it's increasingly hard to even find doctors who are taking new patients.
It sounds like this young man had some tell tale signs that lead to violence, namely killing animals, which you see a lot in the childhooda of serial killers. It sounds like he was getting some mental health help, but early reports are that he stopped going to a facility about a year ago. It's obviously very early to know with him, but again I can tell you from personal experience it is SO easy to fall through the cracks in the American health care system, and that is especially true with mental health care.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are completely safe if used responsibly.
As Trump so intelligently points out more needs to be done to enforce regulations re their use. The gunman in the latest shooting had mental health issues - neighbours and classmates should have done more to report this. I think Trump very fairly is laying some of the blame for the shooting on those who didn't flag the gunman's mental health problems.
The gun laws work perfectly providing everyone is on board.
Not exactly true, over 50 people were shot by toddlers in the US last year. The number of children accidentally killed, or who accidentally killed other was 120 in 1998, and presumably has risen in line with population (can't find recent figures). These are all deaths that literally only happened because of guns, i.e. none were because the killer wanted to kill and would have found a way to do it with or without guns existing.
From those figures we can see that accidental gun deaths caused by under 16s in the US is more than double the total gun deaths in the UK.
Guns might not kill people, but they allow people to kill people completely accidentally, and when it's not an accident they allow death to metered out more quickly, easily and from a greater distance, than any other method available to the general populace.
Always the throw away line trotted out. If you change guns to cars. Cars dont kill people, people kill people. However if I was to accidentally run into someone while out jogging they may well fall over and scuff their hands/elbows, but if I accidentally drive my car into someone.....! No one other than the military needs to own a live automatic military based firearm, no one!
I don't think Andy was trotting out the standard, wholly disingenuous, Republican talking point. As stated above, we have a problem with mental health care in this country. We also have a problem with having way too many, and way too powerful, guns. The two are not mutually exclusive.
It is deeply sickening to see Republicans go on television after these attacks and talk about mental health at the same time they're taking health care away from millions through their tax bill, and in states like Indiana and Kentucky with work requirements for Medicaid. That's not to mention Trump's latest budget proposal which had huge cuts to Medicare. But just because mental health is their bullshit deflection doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.
It's early, so let's remember that, but it sounds like there were some very good reasons why this young man should never have been allowed to own a gun. This is starkly in contrast with the Vegas shooter where, four months on, his reasons still remain a mystery and apart from stockpiling weapons and modifying them to make them automatic, there don't seem to have been any clear signs of mental health problems. Of course stockpiling weapons should be a clear sign.
Again, it's not one or the other. When I see someone like Ted Cruz on television talking about sick individuals and whatnot, I often shout at my television "so what are you plans to fix our Healthcare system, because I have lots of ideas!"
And this is all before we get into suicide, which I believe make up the largest portion of gun deaths.
I was just casually talking to someone at work about this latest shooting. I said, however you dress it up, the fundamental problem is the availability of guns. He said the problem is everything else but guns - mental health, society now being ‘de-sensitized’ to violence & death, anyone in America who doesn’t like the gun laws should go and live somewhere else, blah blah blah. That and the 2nd amendment rights.
It just does my head in and we did’t talk for long as you can imagine. It’s that attitude that America is dealing with. Meanwhile, the killings go on. Lunacy.
"Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Wore Pro-Trump Hat in School
Hate group says the accused Florida school shooter did paramilitary exercises and got a rifle from members. Ex-students say he wore a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat in school."
Take it with a pinch of salt because I'm sure white supremacist groups probably love to claim credit for things like this to push their agenda and fear-mongering.
"Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Wore Pro-Trump Hat in School
Hate group says the accused Florida school shooter did paramilitary exercises and got a rifle from members. Ex-students say he wore a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat in school."
Take it with a pinch of salt because I'm sure white supremacist groups probably love to claim credit for things like this to push their agenda and fear-mongering.
Obviously time will tell, but if the stories about him being suspended for bring bullets to school, making threats, killing animals, and stalking people are all true then it seems his behavior predates the rise of Trump.
It's worth noting that whether it's guns, lack of mental health care, or the prevalence of white supremacy, Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem.
We have well armed militias who want a white ethno state. And a teenager who showed signs of mental health problems was able to buy a semi-automatic assault weapon and go and train with them.
I believe there are a lot of parallels between what we're seeing with white supremacists today, and the "Patriot Movement" of the late '80s early '90s. These were separatist white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups who stockpiled weapons and lived, to varying degrees, "off the grid." The thing with what's happening now is, they don't all have to congregate in the middle of fucking nowhere, Oklahoma. They can form similar groups of like-minded people with 4chan and via Twitter and Facebook, not to mention any of the various messaging and group chat apps.
In Florida an 18 year old can buy an AR_15 but can’t buy a hand gun until 21. How effed up is that? I watched Trumps pitiful response and it was as hollow as anything he has ever said.
In Florida an 18 year old can buy an AR_15 but can’t buy a hand gun until 21. How fucked up is that?
Can't buy a beer either.
Just saw this on the BBC news too. Absolutely crazy,
Nothing will ever get done until Congress etc sort out the NLA. Trump is one of their supporters & gave a speech at their conference last year. If Teresa May stood up at an ISIS convention & said how wonderful they were do you think you would have much confidence in her defending you against a terrorist attack.
To say that this latest shooting was all about mental health is totally wrong. It had nothing to do with his state of mind but to do with the fact he could buy a machine gun.
I feel that nothing will change until the American public make a stand. The first thing they should do is all teachers go on strike & say that they will not return until guns are banned. Imagine if ALL schools we shut for months until something was done.
In Florida an 18 year old can buy an AR_15 but can’t buy a hand gun until 21. How fucked up is that?
Can't buy a beer either.
Just saw this on the BBC news too. Absolutely crazy,
Nothing will ever get done until Congress etc sort out the NLA. Trump is one of their supporters & gave a speech at their conference last year. If Teresa May stood up at an ISIS convention & said how wonderful they were do you think you would have much confidence in her defending you against a terrorist attack.
To say that this latest shooting was all about mental health is totally wrong. It had nothing to do with his state of mind but to do with the fact he could buy a machine gun.
I feel that nothing will change until the American public make a stand. The first thing they should do is all teachers go on strike & say that they will not return until guns are banned. Imagine if ALL schools we shut for months until something was done.
This is the USA you're talking about - the right to own guns is more important than saving lives.
Trump absolutely appalling today. Blames mental health (there is no proof, other than the shooting, that the perpetrator had a mental illness) thereby prejudicing the chances of a fair investigation/trial. Doesn't mention guns at all. To add to this there was something really sinister in the way he delivered that speech, especially when he tried to address the kids direct. Not sure what it was exactly but I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd morphed into Freddie Kruger. Politically useless with 100% creep factor. How on earth did this guy get elected?
I think the white-supremacist thing is nonsense. If he is so racist, why were 15 of the 17 killed white people and 2 Hispanic?
I am sickened by the shooting and sickened by both political parties using every angle to get the advantage not even one day after the event.
Yeah one of those parties is trying to stop AR-15s from being legal ffs. To make it harder for people with mental illness to get guns. To have a Federal registry of guns.
There are a lot of things that are a "both sides" issue. This is emphatically not one of them. In fact, this represents the pinnacle of where the two parties are separate--health care and the ability to get war weapons.
The point scoring from left and right after these things is truly shameful.
If there is a debate about stopping this happening you couldn't call that point scoring. Any politician who is okay with children getting wiped out and doesn't see any need to do anything about it is one sick b***ard - unfortunately this covers a lot of US politicians.
Trump proves he is morally bankrupt time and time again. A worthless excuse for a human being....
I think the white-supremacist thing is nonsense. If he is so racist, why were 15 of the 17 killed white people and 2 Hispanic?
I am sickened by the shooting and sickened by both political parties using every angle to get the advantage not even one day after the event.
Yeah one of those parties is trying to stop AR-15s from being legal ffs. To make it harder for people with mental illness to get guns. To have a Federal registry of guns.
There are a lot of things that are a "both sides" issue. This is emphatically not one of them. In fact, this represents the pinnacle of where the two parties are separate--health care and the ability to get war weapons.
Except my point was that politicising I see is some Dems and some in the leftist press are claiming that the kid was a white supremacist who was once seen wearing a pro-Trump hat or something. That's the politicising from the left that seems disingenuous to me. We already know how full of it many on the right are on this issue the last 24 hours.
I think the white-supremacist thing is nonsense. If he is so racist, why were 15 of the 17 killed white people and 2 Hispanic?
I am sickened by the shooting and sickened by both political parties using every angle to get the advantage not even one day after the event.
Yeah one of those parties is trying to stop AR-15s from being legal ffs. To make it harder for people with mental illness to get guns. To have a Federal registry of guns.
There are a lot of things that are a "both sides" issue. This is emphatically not one of them. In fact, this represents the pinnacle of where the two parties are separate--health care and the ability to get war weapons.
Except my point was that politicising I see is some Dems and some in the leftist press are claiming that the kid was a white supremacist who was once seen wearing a pro-Trump hat or something. That's the politicising from the left that seems disingenuous to me. We already know how full of it many on the right are on this issue the last 24 hours.
Do you want something done about it or do you just want to make points about whether it's been politicised or not? It seems bizarre that right wing commentators are more concerned about guns than lives.
You talk about politicizing from the left but from where I'm sitting there is no left wing in the US - most politicians sit comfortably on the right.
The gun lobby in the USA are shameful and self serving - the waste of life is a stain on the country. If my child had died in a school shooting I would be horrified.
I think the white-supremacist thing is nonsense. If he is so racist, why were 15 of the 17 killed white people and 2 Hispanic?
I am sickened by the shooting and sickened by both political parties using every angle to get the advantage not even one day after the event.
Yeah one of those parties is trying to stop AR-15s from being legal ffs. To make it harder for people with mental illness to get guns. To have a Federal registry of guns.
There are a lot of things that are a "both sides" issue. This is emphatically not one of them. In fact, this represents the pinnacle of where the two parties are separate--health care and the ability to get war weapons.
Except my point was that politicising I see is some Dems and some in the leftist press are claiming that the kid was a white supremacist who was once seen wearing a pro-Trump hat or something. That's the politicising from the left that seems disingenuous to me. We already know how full of it many on the right are on this issue the last 24 hours.
So what you're saying is that the press, "lefty" or not, should not report on what little is known about the suspect at this point, including he was a member of a white supremacist group and a Trump supporter? Maybe it's different over there but I don't see the coverage being driven by the Democrats in the UK.
What I see is the usual response in the aftermath in that the press will look into the background of the perpetrator and publish pretty much whatever they can find about him.
In this case he appears to be a gun loving, right wing, racist, nut job who publically expressed his support for Trump. You might have a point if it worked the other way, and the Republicans wouldn't use it if he wore a Hilary t-shirt, but let's be honest it's hard to imagine Fox News not reporting on something like that isn't it?
In Florida an 18 year old can buy an AR_15 but can’t buy a hand gun until 21. How fucked up is that?
Can't buy a beer either.
Just saw this on the BBC news too. Absolutely crazy,
Nothing will ever get done until Congress etc sort out the NLA. Trump is one of their supporters & gave a speech at their conference last year. If Teresa May stood up at an ISIS convention & said how wonderful they were do you think you would have much confidence in her defending you against a terrorist attack.
To say that this latest shooting was all about mental health is totally wrong. It had nothing to do with his state of mind but to do with the fact he could buy a machine gun.
I feel that nothing will change until the American public make a stand. The first thing they should do is all teachers go on strike & say that they will not return until guns are banned. Imagine if ALL schools we shut for months until something was done.
But not all of the American Public want a ban on firearms.
I listened to an American on the radio yesterday who in between sobbing at the tragedy was defending the right to bear arms and was advocating giving teachers weapons. When asked if he would want his teenage children to carry arms his answer was and I quote “ yes. I would want them to be able to defend themselves” A further hypothetical question put to him was “ if it were possible to wake up tomorrow in an America free from guns would you take that ?. His reply was “No Ma’am. Everyone should have the ability to defend themselves and their family. People out there will have knives and baseball bats”
America getting to grips with guns is NOT going to happen.
Comments
But there are also definitely instances where shooters have a documented history of mental illness, as seems to be the case with this young man. Now, Obama was able to sign an EO that made it harder for people with mental health problems to get a gun, but Trump overturned that. But you're absolutely right in that there is also a larger, underlying problem here is the lack of access to mental health care in this country.
The ACA made it so that every insurance plan has to cover mental health care, which is definitely a good thing. But the problem remains that coverage, let alone things like payments for office visits are incredibly expensive. And, as I can tell you from personal experience, because there has been a large expansion in the number of people who now have mental health care in the last 3-4 years, it's increasingly hard to even find doctors who are taking new patients.
It sounds like this young man had some tell tale signs that lead to violence, namely killing animals, which you see a lot in the childhooda of serial killers. It sounds like he was getting some mental health help, but early reports are that he stopped going to a facility about a year ago. It's obviously very early to know with him, but again I can tell you from personal experience it is SO easy to fall through the cracks in the American health care system, and that is especially true with mental health care.
For such a great country that has given the world so much, those that support such loose gun laws really are a shit stain on the nation.
Presumably if someone decided to take a pot shot at Trump and succeeded we could all take the same ‘mentally disturbed’ mantra??
It is deeply sickening to see Republicans go on television after these attacks and talk about mental health at the same time they're taking health care away from millions through their tax bill, and in states like Indiana and Kentucky with work requirements for Medicaid. That's not to mention Trump's latest budget proposal which had huge cuts to Medicare. But just because mental health is their bullshit deflection doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.
It's early, so let's remember that, but it sounds like there were some very good reasons why this young man should never have been allowed to own a gun. This is starkly in contrast with the Vegas shooter where, four months on, his reasons still remain a mystery and apart from stockpiling weapons and modifying them to make them automatic, there don't seem to have been any clear signs of mental health problems. Of course stockpiling weapons should be a clear sign.
Again, it's not one or the other. When I see someone like Ted Cruz on television talking about sick individuals and whatnot, I often shout at my television "so what are you plans to fix our Healthcare system, because I have lots of ideas!"
And this is all before we get into suicide, which I believe make up the largest portion of gun deaths.
https://www.npr.org/2017/09/30/554789675/report-finds-suicides-are-even-more-common-than-gun-homicides
It just does my head in and we did’t talk for long as you can imagine. It’s that attitude that America is dealing with. Meanwhile, the killings go on. Lunacy.
"Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Wore Pro-Trump Hat in School
Hate group says the accused Florida school shooter did paramilitary exercises and got a rifle from members. Ex-students say he wore a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat in school."
Take it with a pinch of salt because I'm sure white supremacist groups probably love to claim credit for things like this to push their agenda and fear-mongering.
It's worth noting that whether it's guns, lack of mental health care, or the prevalence of white supremacy, Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem.
We have well armed militias who want a white ethno state. And a teenager who showed signs of mental health problems was able to buy a semi-automatic assault weapon and go and train with them.
I believe there are a lot of parallels between what we're seeing with white supremacists today, and the "Patriot Movement" of the late '80s early '90s. These were separatist white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups who stockpiled weapons and lived, to varying degrees, "off the grid." The thing with what's happening now is, they don't all have to congregate in the middle of fucking nowhere, Oklahoma. They can form similar groups of like-minded people with 4chan and via Twitter and Facebook, not to mention any of the various messaging and group chat apps.
Nothing will ever get done until Congress etc sort out the NLA. Trump is one of their supporters & gave a speech at their conference last year. If Teresa May stood up at an ISIS convention & said how wonderful they were do you think you would have much confidence in her defending you against a terrorist attack.
To say that this latest shooting was all about mental health is totally wrong. It had nothing to do with his state of mind but to do with the fact he could buy a machine gun.
I feel that nothing will change until the American public make a stand. The first thing they should do is all teachers go on strike & say that they will not return until guns are banned. Imagine if ALL schools we shut for months until something was done.
I am sickened by the shooting and sickened by both political parties using every angle to get the advantage not even one day after the event.
There are a lot of things that are a "both sides" issue. This is emphatically not one of them. In fact, this represents the pinnacle of where the two parties are separate--health care and the ability to get war weapons.
Trump proves he is morally bankrupt time and time again. A worthless excuse for a human being....
You talk about politicizing from the left but from where I'm sitting there is no left wing in the US - most politicians sit comfortably on the right.
The gun lobby in the USA are shameful and self serving - the waste of life is a stain on the country. If my child had died in a school shooting I would be horrified.
What I see is the usual response in the aftermath in that the press will look into the background of the perpetrator and publish pretty much whatever they can find about him.
In this case he appears to be a gun loving, right wing, racist, nut job who publically expressed his support for Trump. You might have a point if it worked the other way, and the Republicans wouldn't use it if he wore a Hilary t-shirt, but let's be honest it's hard to imagine Fox News not reporting on something like that isn't it?
I listened to an American on the radio yesterday who in between sobbing at the tragedy was defending the right to bear arms and was advocating giving teachers weapons. When asked if he would want his teenage children to carry arms his answer was and I quote “ yes. I would want them to be able to defend themselves” A further hypothetical question put to him was “ if it were possible to wake up tomorrow in an America free from guns would you take that ?. His reply was “No Ma’am. Everyone should have the ability to defend themselves and their family. People out there will have knives and baseball bats”
America getting to grips with guns is NOT going to happen.