The influence of the EU on Britain.

seth plum said:

golfaddick said:

seth plum said:

cabbles said:

CharltonMadrid said:

Great article from the brilliant Gary Younge discussing the sense of victimhood that many Leavers love to wallow in, and which also feeds Trump supporters in the US.

It’s never their fault: why the Brexiteers love to cry betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

I do hope that if it does go tits up people would have the humility to accept that they backed the wrong horse and hold their hands up. I still hear (not on here) a lot of people whinging and bitching that the reason it's all gone wrong is down to the government. Whilst I fully agree the government have made a complete pigs ear of it, it shouldn't take away from people accepting responsibility for their choices. For example, can people who voted out say they truly took the time to go through all the facts and determine whether or not that they/the nation would be materially better off being out? I accept a lot of what has come out in the wash may have been unforeseen at the time, but then you could argue why vote out when you don't know what the consequences will be (good or bad).

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, and I will put in writing now that should this turn out to be a good thing and in however many years from now we are better off out, thank you for all those that did vote out, you chose to do the right thing.

I've just got a feeling there will be a lot passing the buck if does go wrong and we'll hear 'oh but they never gave us all the facts', 'oh the government ruined it for us' 'they should've done it this way' etc etc.

Be an interesting few months

I don't think there will ever be progress on all this until a massive shed load of brexit voters admit they made a massive mistake, and acknowledge it as publically and widely as possible.
However nobody likes to admit they got it wrong

I really can't understand why you keep banging on that us leave voters got it wtong & we need to apologise. Applogise for what exactly ?? we had a referendum & there were only 2 possible outcomes. If, according to your logic, one outcome was so bad then why were we given the choice to vote ?? Surely you ire should be aimed at David Cameron, The Civil Service and any other buggers responsible.

I was simply asked to attend a polling station & put a X in 1 of 2 boxes. What happens after that I have no power over.

I have already said publicly on here that TM & her Government have no idea what they are doing & I'm expecting that the end result will either be a no deal or another referendum......which I would probably vote to stay as to leave is patently no possible.

From all your posts I'm assuming your a Labour supporter. If so I'm looking forward to the next few years so I can blame you for every policy decision that ends up in tears ( as it inevitably will) once Corbyn gets into power.

Where have I said apologise?
And what I bang on about is the Irish border.
I have also consistently said you won get on with it, I have also consistently said no second referendum.
Whether I vote Labour or Lord Buckethead is of little importance, they can be voted out after five years, your brexit is forever.
You fit the pattern of looking for someone to blame or dig out instead of coming up with the solutions for getting the UK into this position.
My post in effect is challenging brexit voters to take the first step and acknowledge they didn't know what they were voting for, did you?
Once that first step is taken we might have a chance of removing this brexit fatberg from the sewer of British politics.
Little chance of a U-turn by brexit voters at the moment though, they are loving this nightmare judging by a poster like Chippy.

“This Brexit fatberg from the sewer of British politics”

Seth that is a wonderful phrase.

seth plum said:

golfaddick said:

seth plum said:

cabbles said:

CharltonMadrid said:

Great article from the brilliant Gary Younge discussing the sense of victimhood that many Leavers love to wallow in, and which also feeds Trump supporters in the US.

It’s never their fault: why the Brexiteers love to cry betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

I do hope that if it does go tits up people would have the humility to accept that they backed the wrong horse and hold their hands up. I still hear (not on here) a lot of people whinging and bitching that the reason it's all gone wrong is down to the government. Whilst I fully agree the government have made a complete pigs ear of it, it shouldn't take away from people accepting responsibility for their choices. For example, can people who voted out say they truly took the time to go through all the facts and determine whether or not that they/the nation would be materially better off being out? I accept a lot of what has come out in the wash may have been unforeseen at the time, but then you could argue why vote out when you don't know what the consequences will be (good or bad).

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, and I will put in writing now that should this turn out to be a good thing and in however many years from now we are better off out, thank you for all those that did vote out, you chose to do the right thing.

I've just got a feeling there will be a lot passing the buck if does go wrong and we'll hear 'oh but they never gave us all the facts', 'oh the government ruined it for us' 'they should've done it this way' etc etc.

Be an interesting few months

I don't think there will ever be progress on all this until a massive shed load of brexit voters admit they made a massive mistake, and acknowledge it as publically and widely as possible.
However nobody likes to admit they got it wrong

I really can't understand why you keep banging on that us leave voters got it wtong & we need to apologise. Applogise for what exactly ?? we had a referendum & there were only 2 possible outcomes. If, according to your logic, one outcome was so bad then why were we given the choice to vote ?? Surely you ire should be aimed at David Cameron, The Civil Service and any other buggers responsible.

I was simply asked to attend a polling station & put a X in 1 of 2 boxes. What happens after that I have no power over.

I have already said publicly on here that TM & her Government have no idea what they are doing & I'm expecting that the end result will either be a no deal or another referendum......which I would probably vote to stay as to leave is patently no possible.

From all your posts I'm assuming your a Labour supporter. If so I'm looking forward to the next few years so I can blame you for every policy decision that ends up in tears ( as it inevitably will) once Corbyn gets into power.

Where have I said apologise?
And what I bang on about is the Irish border.
I have also consistently said you won get on with it, I have also consistently said no second referendum.
Whether I vote Labour or Lord Buckethead is of little importance, they can be voted out after five years, your brexit is forever.
You fit the pattern of looking for someone to blame or dig out instead of coming up with the solutions for getting the UK into this position.
My post in effect is challenging brexit voters to take the first step and acknowledge they didn't know what they were voting for, did you?
Once that first step is taken we might have a chance of removing this brexit fatberg from the sewer of British politics.
Little chance of a U-turn by brexit voters at the moment though, they are loving this nightmare judging by a poster like Chippy.

Sorry......you simply added to a post that @cabbles posted that said "they should hold their hands up" and I read that meaning leave voters should aplogise. I now realise you didn't say this.

bobmunro said:

seth plum said:

golfaddick said:

seth plum said:

cabbles said:

CharltonMadrid said:

Great article from the brilliant Gary Younge discussing the sense of victimhood that many Leavers love to wallow in, and which also feeds Trump supporters in the US.

It’s never their fault: why the Brexiteers love to cry betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/brexiteers-betrayal-britain-america

I do hope that if it does go tits up people would have the humility to accept that they backed the wrong horse and hold their hands up. I still hear (not on here) a lot of people whinging and bitching that the reason it's all gone wrong is down to the government. Whilst I fully agree the government have made a complete pigs ear of it, it shouldn't take away from people accepting responsibility for their choices. For example, can people who voted out say they truly took the time to go through all the facts and determine whether or not that they/the nation would be materially better off being out? I accept a lot of what has come out in the wash may have been unforeseen at the time, but then you could argue why vote out when you don't know what the consequences will be (good or bad).

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, and I will put in writing now that should this turn out to be a good thing and in however many years from now we are better off out, thank you for all those that did vote out, you chose to do the right thing.

I've just got a feeling there will be a lot passing the buck if does go wrong and we'll hear 'oh but they never gave us all the facts', 'oh the government ruined it for us' 'they should've done it this way' etc etc.

Be an interesting few months

I don't think there will ever be progress on all this until a massive shed load of brexit voters admit they made a massive mistake, and acknowledge it as publically and widely as possible.
However nobody likes to admit they got it wrong

I really can't understand why you keep banging on that us leave voters got it wtong & we need to apologise. Applogise for what exactly ?? we had a referendum & there were only 2 possible outcomes. If, according to your logic, one outcome was so bad then why were we given the choice to vote ?? Surely you ire should be aimed at David Cameron, The Civil Service and any other buggers responsible.

I was simply asked to attend a polling station & put a X in 1 of 2 boxes. What happens after that I have no power over.

I have already said publicly on here that TM & her Government have no idea what they are doing & I'm expecting that the end result will either be a no deal or another referendum......which I would probably vote to stay as to leave is patently no possible.

From all your posts I'm assuming your a Labour supporter. If so I'm looking forward to the next few years so I can blame you for every policy decision that ends up in tears ( as it inevitably will) once Corbyn gets into power.

Where have I said apologise?
And what I bang on about is the Irish border.
I have also consistently said you won get on with it, I have also consistently said no second referendum.
Whether I vote Labour or Lord Buckethead is of little importance, they can be voted out after five years, your brexit is forever.
You fit the pattern of looking for someone to blame or dig out instead of coming up with the solutions for getting the UK into this position.
My post in effect is challenging brexit voters to take the first step and acknowledge they didn't know what they were voting for, did you?
Once that first step is taken we might have a chance of removing this brexit fatberg from the sewer of British politics.
Little chance of a U-turn by brexit voters at the moment though, they are loving this nightmare judging by a poster like Chippy.

Call me an eternal optimist, but I doubt (hope so anyway) that Chippy is representative of the average brexit voter.

God help us if I'm wrong.

The evidence of any Brexit related discussion on my local paper's comments section would suggest Chippy would be one of the more considered Leavers in my own area. We've long since entered the realms of bloody mindedness regardless of the impacts with the majority of Leave voters in my experience.

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

McBobbin said:

Gary linekar in on the retired sportsman act https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44957901

Next up, Johnny Herbert...

Until Shay Given publicises his thoughts I'll heed no attention to this Brexit business.

Shay being a Donegal man, is well used to the border, however he's not too sure where Dublin is.

https://youtu.be/6UeNGCNE2E4

golfaddick said:

Chizz said:

bobmunro said:

Chizz said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

Chizz said:

bobmunro said:

golfaddick said:

I see Michel Barnier has already said the "Chequers white paper" is a non-starter. EU wont agree to collecting our tarrifs & taxes and that the "not single market but still trying to be together" thingy wont work either. Best get your cabinet back to Chequers Mrs May for a re-think......

but Raab thinks its all still good & the EU are just joshing with us.....they're good chaps really & will see sense in the end...

It was never going to be acceptable. Why would/should the EU change their rules for a nation that has decided to leave the union.

Call me an old cynic but my view is that May and co always knew it wouldn't be acceptable and they are just preparing the ground to divert blame to the 27. The Daily Mail will go for it.

What would be the point of that? What would Theresa May gain from creating a solution that will be rejected and use that rejection to point fingers at the EU27?

Are you serious. Politics is and always has been about diverting blame. Given the complete and utter fiasco that the government have presided over in negotiating Brexit I think the Tories will be absolutely desperate to blame anyone and as Labour are not going to be available as a target the only possibility is to blame the 27.

It will be a complete case of the EU being inflexible and intransigent whereas the U.K. will have tried its utmost to offer solutions and compromise.

It’s nailed on 100% certain.

I get that Theresa May will want to divert blame. Of course. But what would be the point of coming up with a plan that will be rejected, purely in order to be able to divert blame? Where does that benefit anyone? The only person to benefit from that as a strategy would be the Prime Minister and the only benefit would be to make the situation harder to solve, because she would be back at square one.

I don't want to give her any credit for anything within this whole fiasco. But surely she must have a better solution than kicking it down the road and being able to blame someone else for how far it's been kicked?

There is no solution to a soft Brexit. It's Norway, staying in (which is better than Norway), or falling off the cliff. It was never, despite Bojo's claim, a possibility of cake and eat it.

May will be forced to go for either stay or cliff edge - she can't find another way because there is no other way - but if she can blame someone else then she will. This is about 1) her survival, 2) the Tory Party and a distant 3) the country.

So, in your view, she's looking for the middle ground that doesn't exist, ie something that means we leave the EU, but is less harmful than a no-deal brexit. And she'll keep searching for it until... when?

Until late October whem the other 27 EU countries vote to reject Brexit & TM will have to go to parliament & tell them. I then expect either a vote of no confidence on her Government & thus a GE or a vote of no confidence in her by her party & there in a leadership election. In both cases I would hope that the leave process is suspended or put back 3-6 to see what happens next.

Just to be pedantic, the EU27 will neither vote to reject or accept Brexit in October (they have, in some cases with genuine sadness, already accepted the decision of the referendum).

They will, however, consider the Withdrawal Agreement that might be agreed at the scheduled Council meeting (I have my doubts), and prepare for each country to ratify it - or consider whether there is any merit to calling for another Council meeting in December.

For those arguing that the EU27 would be happy to extend Article 50, the mood music is that they might, but that there would have to be real expectation of a changed negotiating environment, and an expectation of progress.

Nothing in the recent UK Government pronouncements, particularly about the Irish border and the "divorce settlement" suggests that the movement that there is is towards a resolution.

If I was a gambling man, I'd put my money on no general agreement being made (with the exception being easily agreed side issues) and the UK crashing out in March.

The really worrying thing is that Northern Ireland, because of the lack of political leadership, is probably the least prepared part of the UK (Civil Service staff are only now being allocated to deal with Brexit issues - we have no policies to attempt to implement).

MuttleyCAFC said:

Tactically Article 50 should have been triggered when we were ready to trigger it and if the EU were getting annoyed at the uncertainty and delay, it would have improved our hand. It would have also given us time to work out the sort of Brexit we wanted but like everything in this sorry episode, logic and strategy went out of the window!

I said at the time, and still believe, that the EU27 wouldn't have accepted that, they'd have claimed, with some reason, that the UK was not complying with "European values" and would have moved towards Article 7 sanctions.

Only if the UK had stated a fixed start date (in the near future) for the Article 50 process might there have been EU27 acceptance.

An open-ended process of internal negotiations before Article 50 would never have been acceptable.

MuttleyCAFC said:

Yes, but we could have strung them along a bit before it got to that then gave a date sufficiently far into the future - we couldn't do it quickly enough which only served to lose us bargaining power!!!!

How many years do you think it would have needed to get our position straight before triggering article 50?

Well, I would simply have not rushed it - let the EU get annoyed at the uncertainty, which in turn would have strengthened our position. All this you can't do that or can't do this? Why? The truth why we rushed it was every day Brexit is delayed in the future provides an additional opportunity to scupper it. That fear is not sufficient reason to show the EU our cards before the hands are played! It all comes back that doing what is best for the country is not high on the list for the people driving Brexit.

Well, we will never know, but we certainly could have delayed well beyond the date we have ended up with! Whether you are a Brexiter or Remainer, it makes sense to play your cards as best you can to achieve the best deal! Well at least I thought it did before this useless Government set about it!

MuttleyCAFC said:

Well, we will never know, but we certainly could have delayed well beyond the date we have ended up with! Whether you are a Brexiter or Remainer, it makes sense to play your cards as best you can to achieve the best deal!

Or could even have sought an agreement (across UK politics) of what form of Brexit to seek (leaving the details to negotiators), even with triggering Article 50 at the same time.

The most sense would be made by knowing what you're doing in the first place.