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England v Italy - THE FINAL - Match Thread
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Ashley Young & Ashley Cole v Italy, which I'd completely forgotten about until Ashley Cole mentioned it the other day on ITV.soapboxsam said:In Penalty shoot outs players who have missed from memory:
Pearce and Waddle, experienced players.
Southgate, young playerBatty, had not taken a penalty since School in a competitive match.
Ince, didn't like to take penalities and normally looked the other way.
Beckham against Portugal
Vassels I remember because it was a quiz question last year on Zoom !
Lampard right man but...
Gerard right man but.....
Carragher wrong man.
Now added to that list isRashford, Sancho and Saka.
Must be other names but there the ones I recall.0 -
Lots of people digging out Southgate for bringing on two penalty takers but that's hardly revolutionary, seen it happen many times. Netherlands even brought Krul on once with a minute to go.
It doesn't help that they both missed and was also a bit shambolic that they made the change when Italy had a corner.0 -
Interesting now that the emotions and booze seems to be wearing off, this thread has moved from a respectful one to a bit gobby.2
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Ah - I made sure I did but the tone from this a few pages back was pleasant so assumed too much!0
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brave attempt but outdone by a better, streetwise midfield and ruthless defence .. still and all, it went to penalties .. with a more creative presence in midfield we could well do VERY well at the World Cup .. no time to cry chaps, life moves on0
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I can understand Southgate's logic regarding the penalty takers, at least to an extent - even if I personally don't agree with it.
His leadership style this tournament seems to have been to try and show belief in the players and encourage them to find themselves, to try and get them to find another level on themselves. By that logic, saying that it had to be "senior" players who were allowed to take penalties would've been counterproductive and hypocritical, or such would be his thinking.
WITH THAT SAID, I don't necessarily agree as that kind of pressure and tension is just so much to be piling on anyone, let alone a teenager. I can see what he was trying to do, but I don't think it worked.1 -
The thing that bothers me is that why Southgate didn't know that in the first place?! You know it, i know it, half of Europe you're saying know it but not the England manager.Chunes said:Reading the reaction from around Europe on Reddit, they are all asking why we would bring on substitutions cold to take penalties. Also asking why we would give the decisive penalty to a nineteen-year-old. So even the neutrals are calling out those decisions.
Clearly Southgate has chosen the 'best' penalty takers on the training ground, but taking a penalty in a knockout tournament doesn't seem to be about technique so much as nerve and to a certain extent, form. I'm not sure the question should be: is he a good technical penalty taker? ... So much as, does this player have the state of mind to go and smash it in?
As Peter Crouch said on his podcast recently, it's rare a player will miss a penalty on the training ground. But stepping up in a big match to take one is a completely different proposition, and it's 90% strength of mind.
A lot of good lessons to be learned from that match. I think (and hope) GS is smart enough to learn them. But I did think the early goal and the way we sat back was too similar to Croatia, and we changed it too little and too late again.
Still, I was just happy for us to be in a final, to be honest.1 -
What utter nonsense. Was Sanchos penalty better than Kanes?Callumcafc said:
Best penalties: Bonucci (99%) and Maguire (98%)
Worst penalties: Bernadeschi (59%) and Saka (60%)
Sancho’s penalty had a better probability of going in than Kane’s one (76% vs 75%).
Expected penalty score: Italy 3.8 - 3.1 England0 -
Our goal:
I said last night that I’m not sure mentality wise such an early goal helped us. The disappointing thing for me is this is the 2nd minute and I can’t remember another open play moment in the game following that where we actively got 6 players in and around their box.10 -
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Rashford - woefully out of form for club and country. Hardly kicked a ball in the tournament. Bring him on completely cold to take a pen in the biggest game this country has ever seen for 50 odd years.LawrieAbrahams said:
Lots of people digging out Southgate for bringing on two penalty takers but that's hardly revolutionary, seen it happen many times. Netherlands even brought Krul on once with a minute to go.
It doesn't help that they both missed and was also a bit shambolic that they made the change when Italy had a corner.
I think if Gareth had punched all that into his calculator it wouldn't of spat out the answer he was looking for.10 -
Donarumma is a fantastic keeper and he’s absolutely massive. Fills the goal.
Maguire and Kane beat him with hard pens. I think Pickford genuinely would’ve been our best bet4 -
I just think you need to give players a get out if they are not feeling it. I think if you are not feeling it, the chances of missing go through the roof. Ultimately though, one team is going to win a shoot out and one team is going to lose. We lost yesterday, on another day we might have won.1
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I am pretty sure that 'xG map' only takes into account the area of the goal the ball was heading in, not how well the penalty was struck, i.e. the speed of the ball. That's why it's classing Sancho's tap similar as Kane's smash into the corner.
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It seems to be adjusted to account for which side the keeper is stronger at, presumably the right, so Kane's penalty was further in the corner but on the keeper's strong sidecafcsinger said:
What utter nonsense. Was Sanchos penalty better than Kanes?Callumcafc said:
Best penalties: Bonucci (99%) and Maguire (98%)
Worst penalties: Bernadeschi (59%) and Saka (60%)
Sancho’s penalty had a better probability of going in than Kane’s one (76% vs 75%).
Expected penalty score: Italy 3.8 - 3.1 England
Still seems odd though1 -
Kane's penalty hit the side netting with sufficient pace to classify it as a great penalty, that will almost always end in a goal. You don't need any maps to know side netting first, decent pace and you score. Likewise top left or top right and decent pace. All other penalties are saveable.Chunes said:I am pretty sure that 'xG map' only takes into account the area of the goal the ball was heading in, not how well the penalty was struck, i.e. the speed of the ball. That's why it's classing Sancho's tap similar as Kane's smash into the corner.1 -
Kane "always" goes to the right but you hit it hard enough and at that angle, no keeper is saving it. You stutter, don't whip it into a corner (low or hard) then if the keeper chooses right, he could save it.
Sancho, Saka, Rashford stepped up and took them. But yes, you can't recreate the pressure of the situation in training. No doubting Saka, Rashford and Sancho score for fun in training. Rashford has scored at the very highest level, so I can see why he would take one, but if Grealish, Sterling, Phillips, Pickford, Stones, Shaw wanted one I'd have given them it in front of Sancho and Saka. Just my choice, but I am not England manager.1 -
Spot on.Chunes said:I am pretty sure that 'xG map' only takes into account the area of the goal the ball was heading in, not how well the penalty was struck, i.e. the speed of the ball. That's why it's classing Sancho's tap similar as Kane's smash into the corner.
Also surprised it suggests the one down the middle was the poorest penalty when both keepers were diving out of the way - the first Italian penalty, Saka's and Sancho's were all "nice height" and to the side so I'd say 50/50 on going in or being saved.
Whereas I wish some of our 3 had just gone straight down the middle.0 -
High and down the middle will score far more times than not. But it easy to hit the bar with that sort of kick.1
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Hearing rumours in Scotland that people are pushing for a bank holiday to celebrate England’s demise.
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Labelling it "woke" and "virtue signalling" doesn't change what it is.Major said:Maybe, instead of virtue signalling with all the trendy 'woke' messaging throughout the tournament, the England manager had, when it mattered, focused on football matters, he might have remembered the effect of all the pressure he felt when he missed his penalty and not relied on stats from training but actually thought about the situation he sent the kids into.
Young men together, in strength, opposing the racism that has blighted their lives, the lives of their families and their friends. Racism that has been glibly ignored (or worse) by those in power. They are showing true courage and leadership in this. Young men from working class backgrounds leading in unity where we should all follow. I am inordinately proud of this football team.
If you're not aware of the problems with racism people in this country face, I'll be more than happy to point you in the direction of some research and statistics that make apparent the scale and seriousness of the issue.
If you are aware, and still don't think it's right for people in the public eye to make clear their opposition to racism, I'm not sure I'd know what to say to you!21 -
What are you even going on about you helmetMajor said:Maybe, instead of virtue signalling with all the trendy 'woke' messaging throughout the tournament, the England manager had, when it mattered, focused on football matters, he might have remembered the effect of all the pressure he felt when he missed his penalty and not relied on stats from training but actually thought about the situation he sent the kids into.3 -
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card
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Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.Gravesend_Addick said:
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card1 -
Crushed. Lowest I think I’ve felt after a game. The thing that hurts the most is the players and management gave it their everything. We can maybe highlight things we may have done differently, but I can’t genuinely think of anyone/anything where you can say we didn’t lay it all on the line. Absolutely everyone involved in the set up poured their heart and soul into this campaign. How anyone cannot feel an immense amount of pride and gratitude toward those players is beyond me. Heroes, everyone of them.I’ve got that feeling like I’ve been winded or punched in the gut. Even things like Pickford saving Jorginho’s pen. I was crestfallen and then we get that little bit of hope again.
I really hope those players and Southgate get the chance to just go away and get over the disappointment, reflect, but know they gave us everything and the nation’s respect and adulation for them is right back up there
Next time we can go one better4 -
Jorginho's foul could have been a red BUT I don't think it was a major component in the final loss. He also missed a penalty.0
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It could have been deemed a red but I think the fact first contact was on the ball saved him. Calling for the Chiellini drag back on Saka to be a red is ridiculous.Laddick01 said:
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.Gravesend_Addick said:
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card3 -
Still completely gutted! Didn’t think I’d be this bad 🥺1
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And Chiellini's shirt pull/choke.Laddick01 said:
Emerson one was questionable too. Watched Wales get 2 reds for softer tackles.Gravesend_Addick said:
Watched it back a couple of times & I still don't understand why that's not a red card0 -
Yes I feel gutted today
But I probably felt worse a year ago when Charlton were relegated7
