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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)

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  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    If HMRC let one club off their tax bill, that sets a precedent for every other club to spend more money on transfers and wages, and not pay their taxes
    It's not as clear cut as that though.  The option isn't pay HMRC £20 million or carry on.  They can't pay HMRC anything if they are liquidated or not, as it stands. 
    They might feel that the loss of £20m is worth it to ensure clubs in the future don't try the same thing

    Lets face it, most people didn't notice Bury going under. Wayne Rooney's Derby County closing would send shockwaves through football
    Or they might think its better to get 5, 10 or what ever than nothing.  Also worth considering how much tax Derby pay, and generate a year.  If you include VAT, PAYE, NI etc etc. How much of the total tax bill is 20 million?  I have no idea. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation. 
    Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible.  There is literally nothing to liquidate. 
    The players on Derby's books must have some value.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation. 
    Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible.  There is literally nothing to liquidate. 
    The players on Derby's books must have some value.
    Not if they are liquidated they don't. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation. 
    Which is what happens to other businesses, HMRC will push for liquidation if its the best way to get as much of the tax as possible.  There is literally nothing to liquidate. 
    The players on Derby's books must have some value.
    Not if they are liquidated they don't. 
    So Derby have assets they're refusing to sell whilst at the same asking to be let off their tax bill. I hope HMRC send them a box of matches.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    Man commits a crime and gets a prison sentence leaving a wife and three children with no husband, father or income. Does he get let off because there are no winners ? No of course not. You’ve already suggested £20 million isn’t very much worth bothering about. I beg to differ. It’s a lot of money and better off in the pockets of the NHS, Armed forces or Police service. Derby County are just another badly run, cheating business and deserve no more respect, sympathy or allowance given. If they can’t pay then do what would be done to any other business in the same situation. 
    Mitigation is a factor in most sentencing and personal circumstances are considered although not to the extent of being "let off".  The punishment might be reduced or postponed.  But Derby isn't a criminal case.
  • Looking at Derby's contracted players they have a whole bunch (16) with contracts expiring in the summer of 2022, so these won't be worth much at all. Tom Lawrence is one they might get a bit of money for.

    Irish international Jason Knight's contract expires in 2023.
    Youngster Max Bird and Polish internationals Jozwiak and Bielik (who is probably now worth less than the 8m they still owe due to two ACL injuries) all expire in 2024.

    So there's not really a lot of money they're going to get from sales.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    The tax payer wins because it will stop this happening again and will prevent precedence being set. If derby get away with not paying their tax bill, why should I pay tax? Let hmrc take me to court where the case of derby county can be set

    they cheated, if they go pop as a result of their cheating then hopefully that will deter others from trying to cheat
    Tax gets written off every day, try one of the probably millions of cases as an authority and let me know how you get on. 

    The options aren't HMRC get 20 million Or Derby get liquidated.

    If a new owner comes in and can agree, let's say 30p in the £1 with the creditors, including HMRC isn't that a result for everyone?  At least a better result than anything else that can happen now?

    The directors should be banged up for trading when insolvent, but that's a different issue. 
  • Tom Lawrence for example could be sold now to bring in some money. December off, then free to play in January for his new club
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  • Tom Lawrence for example could be sold now to bring in some money. December off, then free to play in January for his new club
    Someone has got to pay for him, knowing he could be free come January. 
  • The sad thing here is that it is the fans that are going to suffer and it is not of their doing. They didnt run the club on a collision course to disaster did they ? I dont get how the directors can seemingly walk away without recourse! If I ran my business in such a manner that led to this outcome I'm sure a court would find me negligent in my duties as a director.
  • Do they even own the ground? I thought MSD Capital had a charge over it as part of a loan agreement? 
  • MarcusH26 said:
    Do they even own the ground? I thought MSD Capital had a charge over it as part of a loan agreement? 

    No, they sold it over value to avoid falling foul of FFP. I'm not sure how that worked out for them...
  • edited December 2021
    For all those saying HMRC will not do a deal, don’t be surprised if they do, 20 p in the pound is better than nothing.

    Who knows, but they have done in the past and will do in the future I’m afraid, let’s see.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
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  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:

    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    That’s surely irrelevant. People want football clubs saved and up to amount treated differently because it’s emotional. Who really cares if the pork pie factory goes out of business. Not many people get emotional about pork pies to write to their MP. If the Factory is badly run it goes pop and that’s it. For some reason Derby County gets a leg up from the tax payer ? Really ? 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
    if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.

    the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
  • All of the above is exactly my point though it is the fans that will pay the price if only an emotional one.

    If I won the Euromillions tonight and offered TS a load of cash to buy him out and he accepted, then I went on a looney spending spree gambling on the club reaching the Premiership before the £ runs out, what say do any supporters have in that ? when it all goes tits up as is the case here it is the lifelong fans that will suffer through no fault of their own. I'm not saying Derby should be saved by the way as I personally think there is only one way for them to go and that is bust
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
    if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.

    the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
    But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.

    The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt.  Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.

    If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything.  If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?

    The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
    if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.

    the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
    But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.

    The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt.  Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.

    If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything.  If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?

    The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team. 
    so you would like Derby County treated more leniently than other businesses in this country purely because they are a football club?

    sorry but I'm sticking with my original answer, fuck em
  • edited December 2021
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
    if you're talking specifically about bury, there isn't a difference, refuse to pay and you're on your own and out of business.

    the blame should lie at the door of the FA for letting clubs get away with this shit not the tax man.
    But that horse has bolted you can should at the FA or the EFL all you like but you can't undo what's happened.

    The tax now will only be paid, in full, if someone is prepared to come in and take over all the debt.  Morris should have to pay it but you can't enforce that due to limited liability.

    If you liquidated Derby now you would get hardly anything.  If the creditors, including HMRC, can agree to a CVA, that results in a take over, that's a win win isn't it?

    The football club survives, even if it is on - 20 in league 2, the tax payer loses less, the people, or at least some of them, that work for Derby can keep their jobs and the city keeps its football team. 
    so you would like Derby County treated more leniently than other businesses in this country purely because they are a football club?

    sorry but I'm sticking with my original answer, fuck em
    Well loads of people wanted all the laws in the land waved when it suited us...........

    No but if a business is viable, but poorly managed, and someone is prepared to take it over as a going concern through a CVA and the bloker is HMRC, who have the choice of nothing or something, as is the case here.  Then yes I think all businesses should be treated this way.  On the basis that the person/people responsible for it are held to account and don't benefit from it.  Preferably with plenty of thinking time at her majesty's pleasure. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    HMRC can't take control of the ground or training ground if it's owned by a different legal entity than the one that owe the tax.

    The EFL can't relegate them to the national league as they won't accept a club in administration.

    If the club goes into liquidation the players contracts are null and void.  There are no other meaningful assets.   HMRC and "the football family" risk getting nothing. 

    £20 million is nothing in tax revenue terms, the tax gap (tax payable v tax paid) is about £35 billion a year.  On a yield of over 800 billion.  That doesn't include tax dodged by Amazon, Google etc.

    There is no outcome that everyone will be happy with out of this mess. 
    Let’s just let them off then. I hope Thomas is watching closely. Sign a load of very expensive players. Don’t bother with the PAYE. Get promoted on the quick. When HMRC ask for their money just cut a deal. I’ve absolutely no time or sympathy for any business that gets into trouble the way Derby County have. Cheating and duplicitous. Nail their bollox to the wall would be my solution after all £20 million isn’t very much at all apparently.
    It isn't very much in terms of government spending and tax revenues, which is how you framed it. 

    The way its going no one, HMRC, arsenal, the players, the people that print the programs, countless other small businesses etc are going to get anything at all.  Not a penny.  And a city loses its football club.  Not sure who wins in that scenario? 


    It isn't a matter of winning. It is a business in debt that decided not to pay its bills , overspend and hope the Holy Grail was found. That cannot be allowed just because it is a football club.
    But if it wasn't a football club it wouldn't be an issue.  It it was, let's say, a factory that was visible but badly managed you could liquidate the company, pay the creditors something and the person that brought the assists could continue trading almost as if nothing happened.

    Under the current rules us and Middlesbrough would almost have certainly been expelled from the league in the 80s.  We can't moan that football clubs aren't businesses to be bought and sold at a wim then moan that they are exactly that.

    Morris should be personally liable for the debts HE is responsible for, but he isn't.  I have no idea how many people are directly, and indirectly, dependant on the football club to feed their families.  Almost ever body said someone should have done something to save Bury, from the government down.  I don't see how this is any different. 
    But a football club isn't like a factory, in any possible way. It doesn't have business related assets (other than stadium/training ground usually) and it doesn't produce anything. Derby have already decided to sell their only asset. Rather than a factory, they are like an IT consultancy firm. They rent their office, their consultants are all IT contractors who in the real world would all have left long ago once pay starting arriving late or bonuses were deferred. That normal consultancy firm would simply vanish off the face of the earth if badly managed. 

    In fact thousands of badly managed firms do simply vanish every month in this country. The vast majority don't have assets that can be sold on and the company reborn to keep trading. The whole factory analogy is at least 40 years out of date. In a service industry companies' often just don't have the assets for the sort of rebirth you're talking about. Where are the reborn TopShop, TopMan and Dorothy Perkins? Their only assets was their name, which is pretty much all Derby have if the league expels them.
    Fair point the factory anology is out dated.  The wider point though is that its purely because its a football club that its even a conversation. 

    Where is the distinction between the owner and the club in this case?   "Our club not yours" doesn't seem to apply to Derby.  We have seen people, from multiple clubs, over the last few years writing to everyone from the local council to the United Nations demanding someone do something to save a club.  Now the attitude to Derby is liquidate them!! 
    Other clubs struggled and couldn’t afford to run the club day to day, derby chose to spend shit loads of money they didn’t have on the team whilst not  hoping that they’d reach the PL and that’s balance the books

    fuck em
    Bury overspent, the owner bailed, the new owner couldn't/wouldn't pay the debts.  What's the ethical difference?

    137 years of football in a city shouldn't be able to be wiped away through 1 man's reckless spending, the same way someone shouldn't be able to bankrupt any club for personal gain.

    Liquidation is a no win situation. 
    But it already has. That's the point. There's no exemption due to age or sentimentality. It's a long established club yes but it's now insolvent and with no value. 

    It is terrible for the supporters but that doesn't mean that any other business in the sane position would be saved, and nor should they. 
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