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Post-match thread: Cheltenham v Charlton | 3pm Saturday 15th January
Comments
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For someone’s whose posts I usually find well balanced, thought out, and realistic, and normally in line with me own I am surprised you have taken a stance opposite to mine. That’s not me saying you are wrong, because of course this is your opinion, which I respect, but my opinion is that our issues go so much further and deeper than this.Cafc43v3r said:
They run around for 90 minutes, looked delighted when we scored, looked gutted when we conceded.FishCostaFortune said:
Well exactly. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times recently, but it does feel like many fans of many football clubs do always fall down this trope when their team are underperforming or not doing well.AndyG said:I'm genuinely at a loss with how to try and justify the last few performances, a few short weeks ago I was confident that we would reach playoffs as a minimum and went as far too say we would lose another 3 games all season ! Now it is a completely different outlook, how a team that looked so good can morph into one so bad is beyond me.
It isnt even a case that the players dont care because you can see from their reaction to our goal yesterday that they obviously do ! Maybe they are trying too hard ?Is the team playing with the intensity and pace that they did when JJ was caretaker? Certainly not, but they were always not going to, and keeping up that level of intensity across all sports is unsustainable. It’s nothing to do with not ‘caring’.
The issue is now we need skill, ability and effective tactics and style of play to help carry us through games, and at the moment it feels like we have none of that.To many players making poor decisions, to many patterns of play which are easy to defend against. It would be nice to watch us play a game where we have a dynamic and interchanging front line which allows us to play through the middle of the park.
Very rarely over the last 18 haven't they done that, which to be honest is the absolute bare minimum.
What they are now also doing is doing a lot of stuff half heartedly, including the decision making. How many people were convinced Adkins told them to play hoof ball, how many are now accusing Jackson of the same?
They don't pass with conviction, tackle with conviction, put their head in where it hurts, throw themselves at half chances. Those things add up, quickly.
How many of our players would Crewe and Cheltenham love to have if they could afford them? Probably all of them to be really honest. Do the fundamentals right and we win both those games 9 out of 10 times.
Collectively our players lack bollocks and respect for themselves, their team mates, the manager and us.
I didn't think that Jackson would get such a good tune out of them as he did. I didn't think sacking Adkins would solve all our ills. But what I did think is the players wouldn't hang him out to dry, he was basically their choice!I imagine if you went and took a survey of fans of most ‘underperforming’ teams lots of them would point towards the players ‘not caring’ or having ‘no passion’ or not ‘playing for the shirt’. For me it’s such a simple hole to fall down for fans who invest their time, money and emotions in a club, to watch and automatically believe it’s because of the reasons mentioned above for why their team are not performing well.I bet if you had a chance to sit down and speak to any of our players, or to those who know them personally, you’ll find out that most of them do care and want to do well, and don’t like it when we don’t do well.However it’s clear they don’t have the ability, mentality, or the coaching, to maintain performances not just in groups of games, but in games themselves. Personally I think this an issue because we have clearly been lacking direction on and off the pitch for a long long time now, and that’s is why we have seen ourselves slowly fall down to the position we find ourselves in now.0 -
Bailey said:I really don't think it's attitude, it's more how much this team relies on two forwards who are missing through injury. Up until the Plymouth game everyone was talking about reaching the play offs, since that game we have scored two goals in five games and Chuk's has one of those. If players think that they cannot capitalise on their good play up to the box then the confidence ebbs away pretty fast. The return of Stockley and Washington with the option of Chuk's will see a return to form.
This is my opinion:
We won 3 home games on the trot 2-0 against decent opposition in front of a crowd.
Without Stockley and Washington in a two the rest of the team have lost confidence.
Aneke is a great signing and with young Bairstow learning his trade in men's football, we can use all 4 over 90+ minutes with two up top. ( We need all four fit and rotating)
Conor and Jayden not being fit have derailed our momentum and then the negativity of Charlton fans/critics just pours out as the last several years (decade ?) have been so tough and the yo-yo of not fit to wear the shirt- fit to wear the shirt and making top 6- not fit to wear the shirt is on a fucking loop and is now getting tedious.
Accept this is a season of transition.
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Just to lessen the gloom, I know this should be on another thread but this guy is the dogs testicles:
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Who wants to be first with the 'Perfect. Sign him up' joke?guinnessaddick said:
I know a few people who know him, he was out with “an injury “ whilst at Donny, after tests at the training ground.king addick said:
Think we should look at him. So much more dynamic than anything we have at the moment, especially when you mention link up play.AddickRam said:king addick said:Pleased for Morgan as he gets a lot of shit and tbh, its been justified a fair amount but today he really wanted it and tried to get on the ball. Not sure why Dobson is getting low marks, cant do all the defending AND midfield work himself but still played well.
Clares worst game in a Charlton shirt by a mile. Lee holds onto the ball too long and it seems like he picks the wrong pass more often than not, if we could play a system that doesnt include him for a couple of games, I think we should try it.
Burstow is going to be a star and again, the low marks seem harsh for a player who had little to no service despite constantly making runs behind defenders and our players not having the ability to see it.
Hendo should be doing better with the save that led to the goal, push out wide and never back into play.
CBT made an impact I thought but they 2-3 players on him like a shot when he got on the ball!
Thought there number 10 was a handful, thats the kind of player we are missing. There number 9 was a complete bellend. Cheltenham looked like a team who played for each other and ultimately wanted it more than us.
Drastic improvement is needed going forward. The team as a whole are capable of better as shown against Ipswich, Plymouth etc.
Lastly, welcome back Chucks...missed you man!
Think we need to get Lee further forward somehow and have someone with Dobson to try play out, Lee is meant to be the link up player and needs to play quick with limited touches.
Their number 10 is Alfie May who was born in Gravesend played for Chatham, Erith & Hythe before moving to Donny. Probably someone we have looked at in the past.0 -
I have to disagree. But you don't have to listen to me or @c4fc43v3r, Steve Brown has pointed out numerous examples in the past few games of players not putting in the required effort, and examples that have cost us goals.FishCostaFortune said:
For someone’s whose posts I usually find well balanced, thought out, and realistic, and normally in line with me own I am surprised you have taken a stance opposite to mine. That’s not me saying you are wrong, because of course this is your opinion, which I respect, but my opinion is that our issues go so much further and deeper than this.Cafc43v3r said:
They run around for 90 minutes, looked delighted when we scored, looked gutted when we conceded.FishCostaFortune said:
Well exactly. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times recently, but it does feel like many fans of many football clubs do always fall down this trope when their team are underperforming or not doing well.AndyG said:I'm genuinely at a loss with how to try and justify the last few performances, a few short weeks ago I was confident that we would reach playoffs as a minimum and went as far too say we would lose another 3 games all season ! Now it is a completely different outlook, how a team that looked so good can morph into one so bad is beyond me.
It isnt even a case that the players dont care because you can see from their reaction to our goal yesterday that they obviously do ! Maybe they are trying too hard ?Is the team playing with the intensity and pace that they did when JJ was caretaker? Certainly not, but they were always not going to, and keeping up that level of intensity across all sports is unsustainable. It’s nothing to do with not ‘caring’.
The issue is now we need skill, ability and effective tactics and style of play to help carry us through games, and at the moment it feels like we have none of that.To many players making poor decisions, to many patterns of play which are easy to defend against. It would be nice to watch us play a game where we have a dynamic and interchanging front line which allows us to play through the middle of the park.
Very rarely over the last 18 haven't they done that, which to be honest is the absolute bare minimum.
What they are now also doing is doing a lot of stuff half heartedly, including the decision making. How many people were convinced Adkins told them to play hoof ball, how many are now accusing Jackson of the same?
They don't pass with conviction, tackle with conviction, put their head in where it hurts, throw themselves at half chances. Those things add up, quickly.
How many of our players would Crewe and Cheltenham love to have if they could afford them? Probably all of them to be really honest. Do the fundamentals right and we win both those games 9 out of 10 times.
Collectively our players lack bollocks and respect for themselves, their team mates, the manager and us.
I didn't think that Jackson would get such a good tune out of them as he did. I didn't think sacking Adkins would solve all our ills. But what I did think is the players wouldn't hang him out to dry, he was basically their choice!I imagine if you went and took a survey of fans of most ‘underperforming’ teams lots of them would point towards the players ‘not caring’ or having ‘no passion’ or not ‘playing for the shirt’. For me it’s such a simple hole to fall down for fans who invest their time, money and emotions in a club, to watch and automatically believe it’s because of the reasons mentioned above for why their team are not performing well.I bet if you had a chance to sit down and speak to any of our players, or to those who know them personally, you’ll find out that most of them do care and want to do well, and don’t like it when we don’t do well.However it’s clear they don’t have the ability, mentality, or the coaching, to maintain performances not just in groups of games, but in games themselves. Personally I think this an issue because we have clearly been lacking direction on and off the pitch for a long long time now, and that’s is why we have seen ourselves slowly fall down to the position we find ourselves in now.
I think a lot of players are quite smart, knowing the cameras are watching, and will run to take a quick throw, look hurried, etc.. But they are not battling to win games and not showing the desire to be first to the ball.3 -
Fire saleJohnnyH2 said:
We have a lot more of the current squad under contract for next season than what Powelly inherited. How do you propose to get round that issue?Dazzler21 said:
Powell esque clear out and £3-4m rebuild.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:JJ seems to be struggling with this set of players in the same way that LB and NA did. I'm not clear what the way forward is at present?0 -
You mean like last season?soapboxsam said:Bailey said:I really don't think it's attitude, it's more how much this team relies on two forwards who are missing through injury. Up until the Plymouth game everyone was talking about reaching the play offs, since that game we have scored two goals in five games and Chuk's has one of those. If players think that they cannot capitalise on their good play up to the box then the confidence ebbs away pretty fast. The return of Stockley and Washington with the option of Chuk's will see a return to form.
This is my opinion:
We won 3 home games on the trot 2-0 against decent opposition in front of a crowd.
Without Stockley and Washington in a two the rest of the team have lost confidence.
Aneke is a great signing and with young Bairstow learning his trade in men's football, we can use all 4 over 90+ minutes with two up top. ( We need all four fit and rotating)
Conor and Jayden not being fit have derailed our momentum and then the negativity of Charlton fans/critics just pours out as the last several years (decade ?) have been so tough and the yo-yo of not fit to wear the shirt- fit to wear the shirt and making top 6- not fit to wear the shirt is on a fucking loop and is now getting tedious.
Accept this is a season of transition.1 -
I think that might has been Martin sandgaard talking.killerandflash said:0 -
Strikes me that Jackson needs to have a word or two with Curbs and discover his nasty side, as not a few players need a rocket up their backsides after performances have dropped off.0
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Skimmed the bar. Not the stansion.EveshamAddick said:
Didn’t look like it at the game. Looking at the highlights I think it hit the top of the stansion, not the bar.Mike said:
Early in the second half we did. Aneke or Taylor.EveshamAddick said:1 -
If I could LOL my own posts I probably would here
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Chuks and Innis in team of the week is ridiculous.7
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Must have been a bad week!ValleyGary said:Chuks and Innis in team of the week is ridiculous.0 -
I just think if you're going to play wing backs ...you need to have some decent wingbacks in the team9
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ValleyGary said:Chuks and Innis in team of the week is ridiculous.Baffled by the inclusion on Inniss, yes he did some good things yesterday, but much of his general play was sloppy.And it's frankly bizarre that we have 2 players in the team and Cheltenham none, when they were so much better than us!2
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Yes, I remembered someone saying Hendo looked overweight and slow.LargeAddick said:
I was saying ages ago that when watching Henderson during the warm up at The Valley he was going down so slowly and looked so unfit. McG may not come for crosses as much as some would like but he’s a far better shot stopper than Henderson. Also I just don’t see the point in signing him. We could have kept Harness on the bench and then if McG git injured then got an emergency loan in.Covered End said:We look so damn average.
Defence was all over the shop, I'm presuming it may have been missing Pearce's organising ability.
Midfield shows no creativity, Morgan was reasonable, Lee runs into dead ends every time, Dobson did his job well, Matthews isn't creative and nor was DJ.
Aneke was a threat and scored and Burstow was anonymous.
Henderson, although making a few good saves, looks past it and goes down too slow and sets up the goals for the opposition.
Clare, Iniss and Famewo all looked shaky and disorganised.
We nicked an undeserved point and I'm pleased because it's about time.
I don't enjoy criticising players, especially Hendo, but all 3 of our last conceded goals were his fault (others obviously contributed beforehand).2 -
Matthews is not a wingback, DJ and Leko lightweights, Morgan better in 2nd half but he’s a central midfielder, players not good enough and I question that formation. Overall a shite performance, Innis needlessly gave the ball away from which they scored and Henderson should have done better.0
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Alfie May had our back 3 on strings, he did exactly the same in the home fixture we could have done worse than stick Sean Clare on him man marking him. Class player Alfie Maykillerandflash said:ValleyGary said:Chuks and Innis in team of the week is ridiculous.Baffled by the inclusion on Inniss, yes he did some good things yesterday, but much of his general play was sloppy.And it's frankly bizarre that we have 2 players in the team and Cheltenham none, when they were so much better than us!3 -
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My overall assessment is that the players do care as I don't think players go into games not caring or not trying. The main problem as I see it is that a lot of the players are just not good enough.....or not good enough for what they are being asked of.
As @Daarrzzettbum says above, Matthews is a defender not a wingback and DJ & CBT are wingers and not defenders. Bowyer got ripped a new one when he played Smyth at wingback.....no real difference here. Also Leko is not a striker and Davison imo is just not good enough.
I feel sorry for JJ (and Sandgaard) as it looks like another rebuild in the summer as we simply don't have the players to play JJ's desired formation. And sadly I dont see TS spending enough money to put it right. I agree with a post on another thread where it was said that the problem is do we build a team just to get out of this league, and then need to buy again when in the Championship, or spend big now & try to bring in players who are able to step up in the Championship.
If it was down to me I would build the team around the following...
Mac, Lavelle, Innis, Purrington, Gilbey,Dobson,Clare, Washington & Aneke. We would then need a first choice RB, proper wingers (ones that can cross on the run & don't need to stop & cross from the other foot) and a midfield general. CBT & DJ are decent back ups, as is Burstow (although would like to see more of him to be sure). Stockley is too one dimensional & I would prefer a smaller pacey striker like BWP or Bent. Add in Famewo & Lee (if not too expensive) and we have the makings of a top 6 squad.10 -
They've picked Innis on the basis of the Norwich game which wasn't in the league.0
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Not long home after a lovely weekend in Bath chez our Addick friend with, for a change, straightforward journeys to & from the West. Lots of putting the world to rights, wine, eating out & even an evening at the theatre !
Shame about the sport.....
As poor & disappointing as our team was at Johnnie's Rockin' stadium, it was world class in comparison to/with our hapless batters down under - but that's for the Ashes thread.
So, what did the Fanackapans & friends make of yesterday's performance?
Discussing the match at dinner last night, we were united in our concern that our team is far from safe in L1...something we would have chuckled about had it been suggested back in August.
There will be differing reasons put forward for why we find ourselves teetering on the brink as it's clearly not a simple black & white issue. Is it due to the change in management personnel following a disastrous start to the season? Is it due to recruitment in the summer to suit the then manager but not his successor ? Is it due to the latter's reliance on his Plan A which proved SO successful initially & gave us all hope ? Is it down to quantity rather than quality in our squad? Or is down to the tea lady, Gladys Zampa, adding a little something to the Training Ground brews......?
Far too many possibilities for my old head to consider but on reading the Post Match thread in its entirety, it would appear that on this occasion, I'm not alone.
However, there are a few suggestions that the majority of Lifers seem to agree on, including the glut of wingers in the squad, and the lack of natural wing backs for Jacko's favourite strategy to work week in, week out. Without Pearcey & Watson in the team, I also question whether the lack of personnel with decent experience in the kind of battles we're currently fighting is a factor. Who is taking the lead on the pitch when things are starting to go pear shaped & there to put an arm around the shoulder of the young players such as Mason ?
For sure, I'm merely reiterating the thoughts of others with too many questions posed but not enough satisfying answers.
So, a couple of final thoughts tonight from Fanackapan Towers.
We have been made aware of the lack of a 3rd "body" in Jacko's team which clearly puts unnecessary pressure on him & JE. And that the statistician /systems analyst team is somewhat short handed too. Perhaps both areas of concern would benefit significantly if addressed sooner rather than later .
But, with further player recruitment possible over the next 2 weeks and, as I'm given to understand that Thomas is looking to bring in a Consultant to review the infrastructure of our club in general, the question has to be which areas will take priority within the inevitable budgetary constraints ?
Finally, would it benefit ALL areas if a CEO, well versed & experienced in a football environment was brought in now plus that oft mentioned former manager who still proudly wears the T shirt was fast tracked to support Jacko ? Personally, I think that both but most importantly the latter, would help to erase that worrying frown on our gaffer's face....
( What IS the ETA of the next flight out of St Lucia ? )3 -
That’s a very balanced and reasoned post Golfie, and I find it hard not to agree with most of that.golfaddick said:My overall assessment is that the players do care as I don't think players go into games not caring or not trying. The main problem as I see it is that a lot of the players are just not good enough.....or not good enough for what they are being asked of.
As @Daarrzzettbum says above, Matthews is a defender not a wingback and DJ & CBT are wingers and not defenders. Bowyer got ripped a new one when he played Smyth at wingback.....no real difference here. Also Leko is not a striker and Davison imo is just not good enough.
I feel sorry for JJ (and Sandgaard) as it looks like another rebuild in the summer as we simply don't have the players to play JJ's desired formation. And sadly I dont see TS spending enough money to put it right. I agree with a post on another thread where it was said that the problem is do we build a team just to get out of this league, and then need to buy again when in the Championship, or spend big now & try to bring in players who are able to step up in the Championship.
If it was down to me I would build the team around the following...
Mac, Lavelle, Innis, Purrington, Gilbey,Dobson,Clare, Washington & Aneke. We would then need a first choice RB, proper wingers (ones that can cross on the run & don't need to stop & cross from the other foot) and a midfield general. CBT & DJ are decent back ups, as is Burstow (although would like to see more of him to be sure). Stockley is too one dimensional & I would prefer a smaller pacey striker like BWP or Bent. Add in Famewo & Lee (if not too expensive) and we have the makings of a top 6 squad.0 -
Responding to Golfie's post above, there seems to be a disconnect between JJ's preferred formation and players currently available to fit it.
Surely this must have been discussed prior to JJ's permanent appointment? And what was the plan agreed to rectify this?
Without the players available to fulfill JJ's preferred formation, JJ is setting himself up to fail and potentially be out of a job by the end of this season.
Similarly Sandgaard is risking demotion to L2 and even more cash and time required to reach Championship level (and above) by appointing a manager who is seemingly reluctant to forward teams based on the resources available, at least until the end of the season.
The requirement for the rest of this season must surely be to select teams based on the strengths of whatever players are available?
And if JJ can't do this, then he was not the right choice, whatever the fans thought.
If Championship football is still Sandgaard's aim he will need to start bringing in (and paying for) players who can play at Championship level. I can foresee a big problem here selling this vision to players of the right calibre to join a lower mid-table L1 club.
My best guess is that it will take several more seasons in L1 to develop a squad good enough to jump upwards out of L1 and then be capable of staying in the Championship after the first season.
How likely is it that Sandgaard will invest long term to suit JJ's requirements, when JJ is effectively being appointed on a season by season basis?2 -
Not read this thread so sorry if old news, but there is an 8 minute vlog on you tube and it clearly shows Inniss cleared header in the first half over the line. Annoying.3
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Had a cheeky bet on Aneke as anytime scorer so hugely pleased with that!1
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I thought at the time it might have been over the line, and was surprised that the commentary boys didn’t pick up on it. Might have made a big difference because our performance levels dropped after that.bolloxbolder said:Not read this thread so sorry if old news, but there is an 8 minute vlog on you tube and it clearly shows Inniss cleared header in the first half over the line. Annoying.
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Go to 2:54 on the attachment and tell me that doesn't cross the line from Inniss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I32Vsq8cY9w
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I slowed down and paused, defo looks over to me0
