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Post-match Thread: Sheffield Wednesday vs Charlton Athletic | Saturday 13th August 2022
Comments
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I have been thinking that and that it shouldn't be that difficult in theory but it seems to be. CBT is probably a 9 out of 10 in terms of most of his game and a 3 out of 10 in terms of the final part of it. Get that to a 6 and we might be getting somewhere but will that ever happen? I would be amazed if the coaching staff have not been trying to work on this, both last season and this.Ormiston_Addick said:
For me it’s a mentality issue, Garner needs to get CBT and Kirk thinking like wide attackers, NOT wingers.Scoham said:
Garner had McKirdy scoring from out wide in a 4-3-3 at Swindon and it’s why we’ve loaned JRS.Ormiston_Addick said:
Strikers miss chances - that's part of football.SELR_addicks said:
Washington leads to the same mistakes that Stockley does.Ormiston_Addick said:
If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.Jac_52 said:Ormiston_Addick said:I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.
You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.
We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.
Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.
He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.
Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.
The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.
It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.
Chances are created for them, they miss. That's the issue.
If Stockley finished the headers and chances he's been gifted this season there would be no debate about whether he 'fits'. Washington would be the same. Running around the frontline means nothing because he can't finish consistently.
People will remember that even BWP - who was a goal machine for us - regularly missed chances in that promotion season.
The more important thing is that we have players in place for when the ball is played in and Stockley is not mobile enough to do that for us in a 4-5-1 formation.
I am sure Garner will claim we are 4-3-3 but that's bullshit, two of our front three are not strikers, they are wingers with poor scoring records.
As others have said, if you are going to play 4-3-3 then those wide players NEED to score goals or you are in trouble.
Kirk has 29 goals in 200 league games - about one goal every ten games - and CBT has 6 in 85 which is one goal every 14 games!
Football is about scoring goals, it's no surprise that in our two promotion seasons from League One we have had TWO goal scoring strikers in BWP/Yann and Taylor/Grant and in our 97/98 promotion season we had Mendonca/Bright/Jones.
I am VERY skeptical about coaches that play 4-3-3 but play wingers instead of out and out attacking goal scorers.
Look at Liverpool, they had Salah and Mane - two genuine goal scorers playing those wide roles, they didn't have wingers that were infrequent scorers.
You can make the same argument for Spurs, their front three Kane, Son and Kulusevski are ALL goal scorers.
Proven L1 goal scorers don’t really exist as anyone scoring consistently will get their chance at a higher level. As much as we need a good striker we also need to find players we can develop into goal scorers like other clubs do. Keep passing the ball well and we’ll create chances, the midfielders and wide players need to regularly get into the box. Garner got a few goals from Williams last season, a player who didn’t really get into the box and when he did rarely liked to shot.
CBT for example I’m expecting to improve on his two league goals last season given he spent most of that at wing back and we’re playing a much better style of football. He’s already scored one and had three chances Saturday where he should have scored at least one of them. As long as he stays fit this will be his first season as a regular starter and with JRS coming in to play on the right he’ll move back to the left where he’ll be able to cut inside to shoot on his stronger right foot.
Their job is to get BETWEEN the central defender and full back, it’s NOT to get outside the full back - Mane and Salah are fantastic at doing this for Liverpool and Henry was a master at this for Arsenal.1 -
Huge weight is being put on a 19-year-old with no significant professional experience, by some fans if not the playing management. I completely agree that there aren’t enough goals in the current team, but is this kid going to play every game and step up immediately? Maybe, but it’s a big leap to rely on it.4
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I think we're hoping he steps down and impresses.0
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Liverpool are set up so that their full backs are like wingers, providing the width and crosses, meaning that the 2 wide attackers can concentrate on getting in the box. Maybe Egbo will come in at RB when fit and provide that sort of attacking threat from RB.Ormiston_Addick said:
For me it’s a mentality issue, Garner needs to get CBT and Kirk thinking like wide attackers, NOT wingers.Scoham said:
Garner had McKirdy scoring from out wide in a 4-3-3 at Swindon and it’s why we’ve loaned JRS.Ormiston_Addick said:
Strikers miss chances - that's part of football.SELR_addicks said:
Washington leads to the same mistakes that Stockley does.Ormiston_Addick said:
If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.Jac_52 said:Ormiston_Addick said:I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.
You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.
We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.
Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.
He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.
Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.
The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.
It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.
Chances are created for them, they miss. That's the issue.
If Stockley finished the headers and chances he's been gifted this season there would be no debate about whether he 'fits'. Washington would be the same. Running around the frontline means nothing because he can't finish consistently.
People will remember that even BWP - who was a goal machine for us - regularly missed chances in that promotion season.
The more important thing is that we have players in place for when the ball is played in and Stockley is not mobile enough to do that for us in a 4-5-1 formation.
I am sure Garner will claim we are 4-3-3 but that's bullshit, two of our front three are not strikers, they are wingers with poor scoring records.
As others have said, if you are going to play 4-3-3 then those wide players NEED to score goals or you are in trouble.
Kirk has 29 goals in 200 league games - about one goal every ten games - and CBT has 6 in 85 which is one goal every 14 games!
Football is about scoring goals, it's no surprise that in our two promotion seasons from League One we have had TWO goal scoring strikers in BWP/Yann and Taylor/Grant and in our 97/98 promotion season we had Mendonca/Bright/Jones.
I am VERY skeptical about coaches that play 4-3-3 but play wingers instead of out and out attacking goal scorers.
Look at Liverpool, they had Salah and Mane - two genuine goal scorers playing those wide roles, they didn't have wingers that were infrequent scorers.
You can make the same argument for Spurs, their front three Kane, Son and Kulusevski are ALL goal scorers.
Proven L1 goal scorers don’t really exist as anyone scoring consistently will get their chance at a higher level. As much as we need a good striker we also need to find players we can develop into goal scorers like other clubs do. Keep passing the ball well and we’ll create chances, the midfielders and wide players need to regularly get into the box. Garner got a few goals from Williams last season, a player who didn’t really get into the box and when he did rarely liked to shot.
CBT for example I’m expecting to improve on his two league goals last season given he spent most of that at wing back and we’re playing a much better style of football. He’s already scored one and had three chances Saturday where he should have scored at least one of them. As long as he stays fit this will be his first season as a regular starter and with JRS coming in to play on the right he’ll move back to the left where he’ll be able to cut inside to shoot on his stronger right foot.
Their job is to get BETWEEN the central defender and full back, it’s NOT to get outside the full back - Mane and Salah are fantastic at doing this for Liverpool and Henry was a master at this for Arsenal.1 -
where DJ was most effective in the Swindon teamwmcf123 said:
I think we should do this anywayLargeAddick said:
I wondered why on Saturday with Stockley ill we didn’t just play with a false number 9, say Payne, which would have surely suited our passing game. Better than playing someone who wasn’t up to it.Ormiston_Addick said:
If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.Jac_52 said:Ormiston_Addick said:I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.
You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.
We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.
Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.
He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.
Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.
The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.
It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.0 -
It’s a gamble but that would also be the case for someone like McKirdy who’s had one good L2 season in his career. We’re clearly not in the market to be able to buy a proven player who’s already done it. Not sure there even are any proven 15+ goal wide forwards already playing at this level.Airman Brown said:Huge weight is being put on a 19-year-old with no significant professional experience, by some fans if not the playing management. I completely agree that there aren’t enough goals in the current team, but is this kid going to play every game and step up immediately? Maybe, but it’s a big leap to rely on it.
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If you haven't got or can't get the players needed to make a system work you need to tweak it or change it. A bit like Adkins couldn't but Jacko did last season.0
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Which will be the process we’re going through now. JRS is an attempt to add a natural goal scorer out wide and we know we’re after at least 1 or 2 more. Garner used 3-5-2 in the first half of last season which suggests he’s not tied to a single formation.MuttleyCAFC said:If you haven't got or can't get the players needed to make a system work you need to tweak it or change it. A bit like Adkins couldn't but Jacko did last season.0 -
If we play 3-5-2 we need two strikers in to cover injuries through the season. Especially as one of our three strikers is a kid and the other always injured.0
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What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?0
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We would but my point was it shows Garner isn’t wedded to 4-3-3.MuttleyCAFC said:If we play 3-5-2 we need two strikers in to cover injuries through the season. Especially as one of our three strikers is a kid and the other always injured.0 -
He was sitting in front of me. I didn’t bother tweeting it as I assumed many others would.SoundAsa£ said:What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?
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It is a good point but my point is options may be out of his hands. Nobody can convince me Adkins didn't know he had to change to two up front but I think something was stopping him. Not bringing two strikers in would probably stop Garner on its own.Scoham said:
We would but my point was it shows Garner isn’t wedded to 4-3-3.MuttleyCAFC said:If we play 3-5-2 we need two strikers in to cover injuries through the season. Especially as one of our three strikers is a kid and the other always injured.0 -
Anything interesting observations from TS/MS during the game? Did they lose a vape on Saturday.0
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Adkins played two up front at least once, there was a game he used 3-5-2 but I know you mean, it felt like he was reluctant to do it as the plan was 4-3-3 all summer.MuttleyCAFC said:
It is a good point but my point is options may be out of his hands. Nobody can convince me Adkins didn't know he had to change to two up front but I think something was stopping him. Not bringing two strikers in would probably stop Garner on its own.Scoham said:
We would but my point was it shows Garner isn’t wedded to 4-3-3.MuttleyCAFC said:If we play 3-5-2 we need two strikers in to cover injuries through the season. Especially as one of our three strikers is a kid and the other always injured.
If we get a striker in that should give us the option to use two strikers but hopefully we won’t need to switch from 4-3-3 too often.0 -
Do you know what Scoham. I like you. You pointed out when he didn't but acknowledged what I meant. It is tiresome when some people purposely miss the point when it really isn't that hard whether they agree with it or not or maybe it is just beyond them.0
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And how are these percentages calculated? Are they an average of the players in our division, from divisions one to four, or including non league?Callumcafc said:
Not quite. What if he headed it over the bar? Or straight at the goalkeeper? Hence 73% chance of a header from that range not resulting in a goal.seth plum said:
So in the third minute Fraser had a 10% chance of scoring a goal?Callumcafc said:
Player - minute - probability of a goal (e.g. 0.1 = 10%)seth plum said:
Are these map co-ordinates?Callumcafc said:xG…
Sheff Wed 0.89 - 0.72 Charlton
Fraser 3’ 0.10
Clare 5’ 0.02
Morgan 24’ 0.03
Fraser 30’ 0.08
Sessegnon 31’ 0.03
Blackett-Taylor 40’ 0.22
Windass 42’ 0.14
Blackett-Taylor 47’ 0.02
Blackett-Taylor 49’ 0.07
Bannan 50’ 0.06
Kirk 52’ 0.11
Windass 52’ 0.03
Morgan 57’ 0.03
Payne 64’ 0.01
Bakinson 81’ 0.27 (GOAL)
Sow 87’ 0.11
Windass 90+1’ 0.02
Windass 90+1’ 0.08
And Bakinson in the 81st minute had a 0.27 chance of scoring a goal. Shouldn't that be 100% seeing as how he scored?
27% is not zero. He controlled the header well and gave Wollacott no chance. Not every player would’ve been as composed in that situation.1 -
I would like to see a rotating front 3 of CBT, Payne and DJ or the Palace guyLargeAddick said:
where DJ was most effective in the Swindon teamwmcf123 said:
I think we should do this anywayLargeAddick said:
I wondered why on Saturday with Stockley ill we didn’t just play with a false number 9, say Payne, which would have surely suited our passing game. Better than playing someone who wasn’t up to it.Ormiston_Addick said:
If we are playing a possession based game - that’s Garner’s philosophy - then you don’t need a target man like Stockley because you are not hitting long balls in the first place.Jac_52 said:Ormiston_Addick said:I feel very sorry for Stockley, this system doesn’t suit him at all.
You know who would suit this system? Conor Washington.
We need a mobile runner up top, someone who can get in behind and be in the box to score goals.
Stockley is an old fashioned target man, he needs wide players that get the ball in early and a striker alongside him to do the running that he can’t do.
He really really wouldn't. He barely suited a system that suited him last year and playing him up top on his own would be a disaster as would playing him wide as he cannot dribble. I'd honestly rather Davison back than washington, which is to say we really need to stop deifying Connor Washington and his legendary 9 open play goals per season.
Our current game is based on pressing as a unit high up the pitch - this was something that Washington excelled at doing and something Stockley is not suited to.
Washington would be far, far better as our central attacker than anyone else that we are likely to bring in and the fact that he is now playing in a division HIGHER than us shows it.
The bloke has 70 goals in 210 starting league games - and scored 22 goals in 56 starting league games for us despite often playing wide.
It makes no sense to let him leave and not replace him.0 -
I think that it's really cool to see the owner behind the goal with the fans. I might criticise his running of the club but you can't doubt his enthusiasm, determination and love of football.Airman Brown said:
He was sitting in front of me. I didn’t bother tweeting it as I assumed many others would.SoundAsa£ said:What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?24 -
Agreed - shows some balls to front things up like that - could have ended up in all sorts of disagreements - i'm really hoping this season goes well for him / us - be interesting to hear from anybosdy who had a chat with himjimmymelrose said:
I think that it's really cool to see the owner behind the goal with the fans. I might criticise his running of the club but you can't doubt his enthusiasm, determination and love of football.Airman Brown said:
He was sitting in front of me. I didn’t bother tweeting it as I assumed many others would.SoundAsa£ said:What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?3 -
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Most of Stockleys goals came in league 2 with Exeter. Difference in levels. He is not a goalscorer for me.Raith_C_Chattonell said:
Bearing in mind the rare talent of a goal scorer I don't get the stick that Stockley gets.cs1986 said:
I said 20 league goals something he has never achieved in his career at this level. Stockley will not score 20 this year.PragueAddick said:
Garner said it, in the post- match interview on Charlton TV. He used the phrase “under the weather”. I take that to mean a cold. They never say ‘ a cold’ in pro football circles, for reasons I discussed a page earlier. A couple of posters gave it an LOL without commenting further. I presume those two never played football even at Sunday League level and never swerved a visit to the Valley when they had colds.SoundAsa£ said:Seen a couple of posts ‘suggesting’ Stockley was ill.
I thought that was the case actually, as he appeared so listless from the start.
Anyone got the exact info on this?
It also seems a number of posters are suffering from mild attention deficit disorder. For their benefit I remind everyone that Jayden Stockley last season reached 20 goals in all comps despite being injured for several weeks as well as suspended for 3 games after being stitched up by the pub team at Accrington. You’re welcome.
Stockley has scored 105 goals in his career 346 matches which is a respectable goal per 3.3 games. For Charlton that figure improves to a goal every 2.7 games.
Compare that to Leaburn senior who used to frustrate the hell out of me. 66 goals in 474 games - 7.1 games per goal and for Charlton 53 goals in 344 games - 6.5 games per goal.
Stockley ended last season as 14th best goal scorer in league one which improved to 8th when it came to goals per minutes played. And that in a team that were all at sea for the greater part of the season.
I appreciate that others will talk of the nuances of tactics and playing formations, but sometimes you just need someone to bang it in the net ... or as Bill Shankly famously said.
"If you’re in the penalty area and aren’t quite sure what to do with the ball, stick it in the net and we’ll discuss your options afterwards!”
9 in 65 in Championship for Preston.
He scored 13 league goals last year that is not good enough for a team playing 1 striker to challenge.
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So let's replace him with a midfielder who will probably get less.0
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He’d normally be in the directors box, so it shows he’s confident that the fanbase is at least reasonably happy with our start to the season under Garner. Pretty sure he wouldn’t be there if we’d started badly. But yes, good to see him getting the fans eye view.jimmymelrose said:
I think that it's really cool to see the owner behind the goal with the fans. I might criticise his running of the club but you can't doubt his enthusiasm, determination and love of football.Airman Brown said:
He was sitting in front of me. I didn’t bother tweeting it as I assumed many others would.SoundAsa£ said:What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?1 -
That's not what I am saying and is strawman arguement.MuttleyCAFC said:So let's replace him with a midfielder who will probably get less.
But no midfielder could of done worse so far 0 goals and 0 assists in 3 games0 -
Oh wow……how about that!Airman Brown said:
He was sitting in front of me. I didn’t bother tweeting it as I assumed many others would.SoundAsa£ said:What’s this talk/rumour of TS being in with the away fans at Chef Wendy…..not sure where this came from?0 -
But we know Stockley will get his share at this level. I mean we are allowed to look at a career not judge him on 3 games.cs1986 said:
That's not what I am saying and is strawman arguement.MuttleyCAFC said:So let's replace him with a midfielder who will probably get less.
But no midfielder could of done worse so far 0 goals and 0 assists in 3 games0 -
Looking at his career he has never scored more than 13 at this level. That's not enough for a promotion chasing team.MuttleyCAFC said:
But we know Stockley will get his share at this level. I mean we are allowed to look at a career not judge him on 3 games.cs1986 said:
That's not what I am saying and is strawman arguement.MuttleyCAFC said:So let's replace him with a midfielder who will probably get less.
But no midfielder could of done worse so far 0 goals and 0 assists in 3 games0 -
The team might score more though .MuttleyCAFC said:So let's replace him with a midfielder who will probably get less.1 -
Then it comes back down to who is going to massively increase their averages to make that happen.0
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I agree - the stats don’t back up what I said at this stage, but playing a false 9 that can press and link the play better may create space for others and thereby more chances. It would then be on Payne/CBT/Fraser etc to score more goals - it may well not work out but I genuinely don’t think Stockley is up to it.MuttleyCAFC said:Then it comes back down to who is going to massively increase their averages to make that happen.1
