Post-match Thread: Charlton Athletic v Forest Green Rovers | Tuesday 13 September 2022 7:45PM

JamesSeed said:

Dazzler21 said:

greenwichred68 said:

Conor McGrandles this season whipping boy?? FFS give him a chance.

It was a really dire performance. Not writing him off, but that was as bad as I've seen. 

I may have to watch a total match replay on Charlton TV, as I didn't notice him that much. I've certainly seen worse team performances than that (people of Twitter claiming it was the worst they'd ever seen).
It might have been one of the most frustrating nights I've experienced, however.

Well, just watched it again. McGrandles was meh at best. He might improve with games though. 

Callumcafc said:

NabySarr said:

Callumcafc said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

He's coached this team to 3rd best possession, 3rd most accurate passes, 2nd most accurate long balls, 6th most shots on target, 8th most successful dribbles. If that's not getting the best out of what he has, I'm not sure what is.

SofaScore have us rated (out of 10) as the the 4th best team in the league based on performance. WhoScored have us equal 7th best on the same scale.

Short of subbing himself on and putting the ball in the net himself, what more do you expect from Garner at this point?

I’d love to know what is behind those SofaScore and WhoScored metrics but it means very little. 

The other metrics are an indicator of the style of play but not proof he is getting the best out of what he has. We are 14th in the league, that is the stat that matters. League tables can be misleading (especially at this stage) but even when looking at xG league tables we are still around where we actually are. In terms of squad strength I would say we have around the 10th best squad in the league, so at the moment I wouldn’t say he is getting the best out of what he has as we are below that. 

A new style will take time so it’s too early to properly judge and I’m hoping we will improve as the season goes on with players getting used to the style. But at the moment we are underperforming, whether the football is nicer to watch or not 

The way I look at it, there wouldn't be half the uproar there is currently about the way we play IF we had scored an extra goal against Cambridge and/or Forest Green. To me, that points towards fans allowing a couple of bad results to overshadow the overall style and direction. 

Of course results are the only thing that matters at the end of a season, but if you changed everything after only one or two bad results, you're never going to end up going anywhere, you just chase your tail and end up going nowhere.

Let Garner keep doing what he's doing, add a bit of quality to the mix, and we will see dramatic improvements in the end results that reflect our current dominance in terms of possession, shots etc.

This us the nub of the whole argument.  If your half glass full, half empty, totally empty or already at home home tucked up in bed.

You can say it might take 2 or 3, even 4, more transfer windows to get the squad right.  We could get the mythical striker in January.  We could.  Of course we could.  But what evidence over the last year gives you any remote level of confidence that will happen?

In my opinion the most likely scenario next summer, based on recent history, is its more likely that the likes of Dobson, Clare, CBT and Leaburn will move on.  That's not building.

It's not Garner's fault, it wasn't Jackson's and, controversially, it wasn't Adkins's either.  

We arent building anything, we are progressively getting cheaper players.  With the odd exception that means worse.

bolloxbolder said:

Callumcafc said:

NabySarr said:

Callumcafc said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

He's coached this team to 3rd best possession, 3rd most accurate passes, 2nd most accurate long balls, 6th most shots on target, 8th most successful dribbles. If that's not getting the best out of what he has, I'm not sure what is.

SofaScore have us rated (out of 10) as the the 4th best team in the league based on performance. WhoScored have us equal 7th best on the same scale.

Short of subbing himself on and putting the ball in the net himself, what more do you expect from Garner at this point?

I’d love to know what is behind those SofaScore and WhoScored metrics but it means very little. 

The other metrics are an indicator of the style of play but not proof he is getting the best out of what he has. We are 14th in the league, that is the stat that matters. League tables can be misleading (especially at this stage) but even when looking at xG league tables we are still around where we actually are. In terms of squad strength I would say we have around the 10th best squad in the league, so at the moment I wouldn’t say he is getting the best out of what he has as we are below that. 

A new style will take time so it’s too early to properly judge and I’m hoping we will improve as the season goes on with players getting used to the style. But at the moment we are underperforming, whether the football is nicer to watch or not 

The way I look at it, there wouldn't be half the uproar there is currently about the way we play IF we had scored an extra goal against Cambridge and/or Forest Green. To me, that points towards fans allowing a couple of bad results to overshadow the overall style and direction. 

Of course results are the only thing that matters at the end of a season, but if you changed everything after only one or two bad results, you're never going to end up going anywhere, you just chase your tail and end up going nowhere.

Let Garner keep doing what he's doing, add a bit of quality to the mix, and we will see dramatic improvements in the end results that reflect our current dominance in terms of possession, shots etc.

Well you can keep relating all these stats if you want to spin it in Garners favour. The only stats that matter are points and league position. Possession percentages mean not a jot when 85% of it is in your own half.

As a person who has watched us home and away for 44 years, I'll tell you my take and it will be more accurate than your stats. Garner's football with the wrong players will not produce winning football. Jackson was not the answer but if he were here he would have us higher up the table then we are now. He would also have insisted on a striker before buying all these squad fillers.

On another point isn't Clare also suspended for Saturday after his fifth booking? So we go to Barnsley with no experienced full back in the squad.

Jackson would have us higher up the table? 

The manager currently 15th in League Two? With 1 win and 4 losses from his last 5 games? Thought the only stat that matters was league position and Jackson's is even worse. 

Genuinely laughable some of the criticism aimed at Garner. He's got a crap squad and gets us into winning positions. It's not his fault the squad have zero composure or quality. 

bolloxbolder said:

Callumcafc said:

NabySarr said:

Callumcafc said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

He's coached this team to 3rd best possession, 3rd most accurate passes, 2nd most accurate long balls, 6th most shots on target, 8th most successful dribbles. If that's not getting the best out of what he has, I'm not sure what is.

SofaScore have us rated (out of 10) as the the 4th best team in the league based on performance. WhoScored have us equal 7th best on the same scale.

Short of subbing himself on and putting the ball in the net himself, what more do you expect from Garner at this point?

I’d love to know what is behind those SofaScore and WhoScored metrics but it means very little. 

The other metrics are an indicator of the style of play but not proof he is getting the best out of what he has. We are 14th in the league, that is the stat that matters. League tables can be misleading (especially at this stage) but even when looking at xG league tables we are still around where we actually are. In terms of squad strength I would say we have around the 10th best squad in the league, so at the moment I wouldn’t say he is getting the best out of what he has as we are below that. 

A new style will take time so it’s too early to properly judge and I’m hoping we will improve as the season goes on with players getting used to the style. But at the moment we are underperforming, whether the football is nicer to watch or not 

The way I look at it, there wouldn't be half the uproar there is currently about the way we play IF we had scored an extra goal against Cambridge and/or Forest Green. To me, that points towards fans allowing a couple of bad results to overshadow the overall style and direction. 

Of course results are the only thing that matters at the end of a season, but if you changed everything after only one or two bad results, you're never going to end up going anywhere, you just chase your tail and end up going nowhere.

Let Garner keep doing what he's doing, add a bit of quality to the mix, and we will see dramatic improvements in the end results that reflect our current dominance in terms of possession, shots etc.

Well you can keep relating all these stats if you want to spin it in Garners favour. The only stats that matter are points and league position. Possession percentages mean not a jot when 85% of it is in your own half.

As a person who has watched us home and away for 44 years, I'll tell you my take and it will be more accurate than your stats. Garner's football with the wrong players will not produce winning football. Jackson was not the answer but if he were here he would have us higher up the table then we are now. He would also have insisted on a striker before buying all these squad fillers.

On another point isn't Clare also suspended for Saturday after his fifth booking? So we go to Barnsley with no experienced full back in the squad.

Lol

Just wanted to offer apologies to @Leuth. My frustrations last night got the better of me. Although I still maintain McGrandles wasn’t as bad as everyone said 😂

DOUCHER said

aliwibble said:

I'm not convinced about this 443 lark and / or this shuffling it round the back continental tripe - didn't work last year, aint working now - boring football trying to emulate the premiership. Might work there and in the world cup etc but its a poor spectacle - nothing off the cuff ever seems to happen, defences get back behind the ball, we always go down the wing, turn back - play it acoss the 18 yard line, play it back and / or lob an aimless cross into the box - same last year - 

I totally agree. If this is Garnerball which people seem to think it is, it looks like the same old same old to me. Ponderous possession football in our own half, looking for openings that never come. Easy to have 63% possession doing that. By the way, did anyone else note Albie Morgan's half-time warm up attitude? I want him to do well but, seriously, he just couldn't be bothered to do the routines even half-heartedly. Saying that he was better than McGrandles when he came on is not saying much. 

Covered End said:

Dugdaleclass said:

Innis was a bit unlucky with the second yellow after having had a good game when he was moving the ball around at a far quicker pace than in previous games. But these things happen and that's why you have three or four centre halves in the squad. Wollacott had a brain fart and will learn from it.

In the second half Garner was slow to react to the opposition's change of shape. Indeed Forest Green were the better side for a 10 minute period at the beginning of the half after being nearly overrun by the CBT, Chin, Payne combination in the first 45 mins. Both CBT and R-S faded badly and in fact most of the side looked knackered at the hour mark. What are they doing on the training pitch?

That was a game that should have been comfortably won by half time. The players appear to lose it around the opposition box. Perhaps they can take lessons on control and skill from the chap who hit the cross bar during the break. 

   

It's a mystery and has been for years, why our players more often than not seem absolutely knackered well before the opposition.

As you say by early 2nd half most of our players looked exhausted and they hadn't played a game for 10? days.

If we've played a few days before we look knackered, a week before we look knackered, 10 days ago we look knackered.

Surely it's because we continue to generally recruit light weight, airy fairy players and always have.

We talk about recruiting big, tall, strong, tough, athletic players and sign/play McGrandles, Chin, Clayden, Morgan, Kirk etc etc.

Who is our strength and conditioning coach.. 🤔 

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

Curbs always used to say something like: 'you've got to work with what you've got.'

He managed that which is a large part of why he is in the conversation as to our greatest ever manager.

NabySarr said:

SELR_addicks said:

bolloxbolder said:

Callumcafc said:

NabySarr said:

Callumcafc said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

He's coached this team to 3rd best possession, 3rd most accurate passes, 2nd most accurate long balls, 6th most shots on target, 8th most successful dribbles. If that's not getting the best out of what he has, I'm not sure what is.

SofaScore have us rated (out of 10) as the the 4th best team in the league based on performance. WhoScored have us equal 7th best on the same scale.

Short of subbing himself on and putting the ball in the net himself, what more do you expect from Garner at this point?

I’d love to know what is behind those SofaScore and WhoScored metrics but it means very little. 

The other metrics are an indicator of the style of play but not proof he is getting the best out of what he has. We are 14th in the league, that is the stat that matters. League tables can be misleading (especially at this stage) but even when looking at xG league tables we are still around where we actually are. In terms of squad strength I would say we have around the 10th best squad in the league, so at the moment I wouldn’t say he is getting the best out of what he has as we are below that. 

A new style will take time so it’s too early to properly judge and I’m hoping we will improve as the season goes on with players getting used to the style. But at the moment we are underperforming, whether the football is nicer to watch or not 

The way I look at it, there wouldn't be half the uproar there is currently about the way we play IF we had scored an extra goal against Cambridge and/or Forest Green. To me, that points towards fans allowing a couple of bad results to overshadow the overall style and direction. 

Of course results are the only thing that matters at the end of a season, but if you changed everything after only one or two bad results, you're never going to end up going anywhere, you just chase your tail and end up going nowhere.

Let Garner keep doing what he's doing, add a bit of quality to the mix, and we will see dramatic improvements in the end results that reflect our current dominance in terms of possession, shots etc.

Well you can keep relating all these stats if you want to spin it in Garners favour. The only stats that matter are points and league position. Possession percentages mean not a jot when 85% of it is in your own half.

As a person who has watched us home and away for 44 years, I'll tell you my take and it will be more accurate than your stats. Garner's football with the wrong players will not produce winning football. Jackson was not the answer but if he were here he would have us higher up the table then we are now. He would also have insisted on a striker before buying all these squad fillers.

On another point isn't Clare also suspended for Saturday after his fifth booking? So we go to Barnsley with no experienced full back in the squad.

Jackson would have us higher up the table? 

The manager currently 15th in League Two? With 1 win and 4 losses from his last 5 games? Thought the only stat that matters was league position and Jackson's is even worse. 

Genuinely laughable some of the criticism aimed at Garner. He's got a crap squad and gets us into winning positions. It's not his fault the squad have zero composure or quality. 

AFC Wimbledon is completely different situation, they hadn't won a game this calendar year until this season so not an easy one to turn around but also not a great start for Jackson.

When Jackson was with us he performed at mid-table level, which is what the quality of our squad was last season in my opinion so he performed at expectations. Garner has got, in my opinion, slightly better players and so far is performing slightly worse. It is definitely too early too make that kind of judgement after only 8 games but I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that Jackson would have more points at this stage. Unless we finish in the top 10 I think it's very fair to say that we would have done at least just as well by keeping Jackson. 

Continuity is usually more successful than new managers also. Look at the the top 10 this season, all are teams that have the same manager they ended the season with and the teams with new managers are mostly performing below expectations. 

Remind me how Jackson did with injuries over the December/January/February period again? 

Garner with a full squad will have us higher than Jackson would have. It's not even worth a debate in my mind, Jackson was not a good manager. 

Well that was a crap evening,after the start,i was anticipating an easy win,but there you go.Though our cbs both looked solid, the main threat came from their left,too many easy crosses allowed one of which led to the rather comical goal.Mcgrandles obviously needs time,dont judge him on this showing.Once again,our final balls and crosses bore no fruit,we just did not seem to have any late runners coming on to the cut backs,and there were plenty.And to my continuing dismay,the few good crosses were met by the strikers,Stockley or Leaburn standing in the area and being underneath the ball when it came over,why oh why can we not get players running onto the ball and giving themselves the advantage over the defenders.Payne looked good,perhaps with Fraser along side him we may have a decent midfield.I have never seen the food outlets less busy,no waiting to get in the fans bar,concourses empty even at half time,surely the penny must drop,5.50 a pint,4.90 sausage rolls,3.50 a crap portion of chips all on top of the 30.00 plus travelling expenses to get in,when champions league on tv,pissing down with rain and playing a team a few years back no one had ever heard of.(All credit to them for their progress).

SELR_addicks said:

LenGlover said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

Curbs always used to say something like: 'you've got to work with what you've got.'

He managed that which is a large part of why he is in the conversation as to our greatest ever manager.

Must've been tough to persuade players to join the Premier League London club. 

Bit of a different planet to Garner now. 

Compare getting Rommedahl and Jorge Costa on loan to the signings Garner received. 

In Premiership terms our budget was very low.

Callumcafc said:

thetomahawkkid said:

SELR_addicks said:

Anyone blaming/criticising Garner for the performances in the last 3 weeks are missing the bigger picture. 

He's a great manager and it's clear that his style of play was working, he just needed to be given the resources to take us up the table. That hasn't happened so now he's rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic with mid-table League One players and youth in the hope that we find the next Gomez or Grant. 

For me, the jury is still out as to whether or not Garner is a great manager. There are positive signs, but I am just not convinced. I certainly agree that he hasn't been properly supported by TS, and it is clear we are short of a few decent players in our squad. However, the best managers are able to look at what they have and get the best out of it. I am not sure Garner is doing that at the moment.

He's coached this team to 3rd best possession, 3rd most accurate passes, 2nd most accurate long balls, 6th most shots on target, 8th most successful dribbles. If that's not getting the best out of what he has, I'm not sure what is.

SofaScore have us rated (out of 10) as the the 4th best team in the league based on performance. WhoScored have us equal 7th best on the same scale.

Short of subbing himself on and putting the ball in the net himself, what more do you expect from Garner at this point?

Win some games of football please, especially against relegation level teams, that should have been beaten out of sight.

Cafc43v3r said:

Covered End said:

Dugdaleclass said:

Innis was a bit unlucky with the second yellow after having had a good game when he was moving the ball around at a far quicker pace than in previous games. But these things happen and that's why you have three or four centre halves in the squad. Wollacott had a brain fart and will learn from it.

In the second half Garner was slow to react to the opposition's change of shape. Indeed Forest Green were the better side for a 10 minute period at the beginning of the half after being nearly overrun by the CBT, Chin, Payne combination in the first 45 mins. Both CBT and R-S faded badly and in fact most of the side looked knackered at the hour mark. What are they doing on the training pitch?

That was a game that should have been comfortably won by half time. The players appear to lose it around the opposition box. Perhaps they can take lessons on control and skill from the chap who hit the cross bar during the break. 

   

It's a mystery and has been for years, why our players more often than not seem absolutely knackered well before the opposition.

As you say by early 2nd half most of our players looked exhausted and they hadn't played a game for 10? days.

If we've played a few days before we look knackered, a week before we look knackered, 10 days ago we look knackered.

Surely it's because we continue to generally recruit light weight, airy fairy players and always have.

We talk about recruiting big, tall, strong, tough, athletic players and sign/play McGrandles, Chin, Clayden, Morgan, Kirk etc etc.

Who is our strength and conditioning coach.. 🤔 

Dolores Sandgaard