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Sandgaard ownership discussion 2022-3 onwards (Meeting with CAST p138)
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On the last point, I'm not sure what his current expectations are. Until he realizes the value of the assets, we can't know how much he will have effectively 'written off', the tranche of debt you refer to being how the sale was handled in the books, but as landlord he's still getting his lease income.Airman Brown said:
Not sure this is about “punishing” TS - people are not going because he has overpriced the tickets and the football is poor. Gates were always going to fall because we’d been relegated. They would have increased on 18/19, but the figures last season are screwed by comps/methodology changes.swordfish said:
It worries me that because TS has made laughable statements using spurious numbers, angry fans might be motivated to prove him wrong. Under RD's ownership there was a collective drive to deprive him of money, which backfired as he won't write off the losses he incurred. If people don't attend due to pricing or product, that's one thing, but if to make the owner look like an idiot, which he doesn't need help with, it's quite another.Airman Brown said:
I doubt that would get him off the hook he’s put himself on. We can’t be expected not to respond to him running the club into the ground for fear he won’t like it. That’s not deliverable even if it was desirable. I don’t favour organised protests because I don’t think they will achieve anything, but the numbers (£s) will bring him down anyway unless he adapts, and maybe even then.swordfish said:
Which is why an increasing number want to oust him now and why I see that banner as a rallying cry for the next fans against the ownership battle to commence.Airman Brown said:Neither Duchatelet nor Sandgaard have failed to put money into the club, although both spent a lot of money early and then turned the tap off. Both did it badly and failed to get the outcomes they expected from the spending.
Both received significant net transfer income and used that towards covering the operating loss.
it’s clearly true that Sandgaard has under equipped the squad this season and that will likely prove a false economy, but accusing him of being tight is not valid over the longer term.
Demanding more spending isn’t going to solve the problem and isn’t a good look in the context of the club’s finances and League One football. Evidence suggests that he would spend it badly.
For me the problem is TS himself - not that he is a crook or part of a conspiracy but that he isn’t very good at running a football club. But he continues to insist on doing so himself and realistically will for as long as he’s here.
I don't think it would be in the best interests of the Club this time to go down that route, but with a team finding it hard to win games, an inside informant deriding the owner and his family almost daily on twitter now, and the final VOTV in circulation, which, although will be a compelling well researched read as usual, will probably enrage an increasingly disgruntled fan base (not seen it yet, bloody post!), I only expect the disquiet to escalate from here.
As ever, my question to whoever wants him out is, what is the viable alternative? He's paying our bills for now, or has been, so if he gets so pissed off that he stops doing that, what next?
I would like to make the point that unfortunately, due to Covid, TS didn't really benefit as much from a new ownership bounce in attendance numbers as he might have expected because, by the time things were back to normal, so were we, underperforming on the pitch. Well missing out on the playoff spots narrowly anyway, and we've had little to excite us since.
If he bought the Club believing it to be a sleeping giant, I feel he was misled to a degree and under his stewardship we're showing no signs of being raised from our slumbers.Boycotts probably didn’t cost RD more than £3m in total, arguably a lot less, and he wrote off a big tranche of debt when he sold the club to ESI. I don’t think you can draw a straight line from those losses to his current expectations, which in any case have not been fixed.
Not that I expect the value of the assets to go skyward in the way MH implied though, so I don't expect him to recover it, but you know how deluded he is. He might still expect to get out eventually at, dare I say it, break even.
And where's my Voice? You might as well have stuck it in a bottle and thrown in in the river for all the good the post is in my neck of the woods, not that the river Ise runs near you I don't suppose. 😢0 -
I think Garner is between a rock and a hard place and the current league position isn't one of strength for his current situation.Raith_C_Chattonell said:Ben Garner may well be a better 'football' manager than we are allowed to see.
After we signed him I read up about his career and was particularly struck by events at Bristol City. He was ultra compliant to the owner's objectives and it may well have cost him his job. I think the same thing is happening here. He has signed on the dotted line and is dancing to Sandgaard's tune. (Apart from Addicks to Victory).
At Bristol Rovers he said "I felt the priority was building infrastructure and delivering on the football and business model that the club wanted to put in place – even if that meant criticism for me in the short term".
Here's what he said after his sacking:
"In terms of our remit, we ticked a lot of boxes, we lowered the average age of the squad considerably, generated significant profits in transfer fees and reduced the wage bill. We were growing as a group, with a developing playing identity.The targets given to me of improving infrastructure, creating an identity, and developing young players were all well under way – all alongside a training ground being developed. Unfortunately, after going through that process and putting in an incredible amount of work across the club, the situation changed after seven league games of the new season".
Unless he grows a pair and goes kicking and screaming to Sandgaard with demands of his own I fear this will end just as badly for him.
I think Garner's only option is to reconfigure the team to play to their strengths as far as possible and hope that an improvement in the football and league position results quickly, before he gets sacked for not playing the kind of football and formation the owner wishes to see.
Remaining compliant with the owner's wishes will result in a place in the relegation zone by November latest and he will loose the dressing room and then his job soon after.
Going kicking and screaming to Sandgaard is a non-starter if Sandgaard hasn't got the money or the desire to improve the squad in January.
Playing 433 with a Stockley as a lone striker and the current midfield does not work in League One, as three managers have now proved.
We might find out if it can work in League TTwonext season, unless it is abandoned and a formation that suits the current squad is substituted.3 -
Afternoon Ben glad you’re seeing some sense 😉0
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The Rui Pinto account relating to us seems to be suspended?
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Not sure that is the one: https://twitter.com/RuiPin2022killerandflash said:The Rui Pinto account relating to us seems to be suspended?0 -
Yep, suspended. Somebody must’ve complained 🤔0
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Sounded quite loud to me, I was in the North West Quadrant.Smithy said:‘Sandgaard you’re a c***’ was being sung by about ten people behind me towards the end of the first half. The ground was so quiet it seems everyone heard it. Probably the kind of thing that would have got a lot more people joining in normally but the mood yesterday was of pure apathy. No one cares and that’s worse to me than everyone getting angry.0 -
Sung to what tune I want to know? Was it "knees up mother brown" and, if so, what lines made up the middle eight of the composition? Asking for a friend.😎wightaddick said:
Sounded quite loud to me, I was in the North West Quadrant.Smithy said:‘Sandgaard you’re a c***’ was being sung by about ten people behind me towards the end of the first half. The ground was so quiet it seems everyone heard it. Probably the kind of thing that would have got a lot more people joining in normally but the mood yesterday was of pure apathy. No one cares and that’s worse to me than everyone getting angry.
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@RuiPinTwo suspended.
@RuiPin2022 not suspended (recently unsuspended?).
Putting two and two together, @RuiPin2022 was the original account. It got suspended and so they opened @RuiPinTwo to continue posting their info. That account was also suspended in the last couple of days but at the same time, @RuiPin2022 has been unsuspended after their ban expired...4 -
Clear as mud.Callumcafc said:@RuiPinTwo suspended.
@RuiPin2022 not suspended (recently unsuspended?).
Putting two and two together, @RuiPin2022 was the original account. It got suspended and so they opened @RuiPinTwo to continue posting their info. That account was also suspended in the last couple of days but at the same time, @RuiPin2022 has been unsuspended after their ban expired...4 -
Either way, I would expect that the info will continue to trickle out one way or another if the person behind the Rui Pinto accounts want it to. A twitter suspension is relatively easy to bypass if you're using anonymous profiles.1
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As I told her ladyship, unless you stop the staff telling their families about the shitstorm that’s running the club you won’t stop it filtering out.The easiest way is to treat them like human beings and not commodities.34
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The point I was trying to make is that Garner's brief at Bristol Rovers was essentially the same as it is - or has become - at Charlton.RickAddick said:
I think Garner is between a rock and a hard place and the current league position isn't one of strength for his current situation.Raith_C_Chattonell said:Ben Garner may well be a better 'football' manager than we are allowed to see.
After we signed him I read up about his career and was particularly struck by events at Bristol City. He was ultra compliant to the owner's objectives and it may well have cost him his job. I think the same thing is happening here. He has signed on the dotted line and is dancing to Sandgaard's tune. (Apart from Addicks to Victory).
At Bristol Rovers he said "I felt the priority was building infrastructure and delivering on the football and business model that the club wanted to put in place – even if that meant criticism for me in the short term".
Here's what he said after his sacking:
"In terms of our remit, we ticked a lot of boxes, we lowered the average age of the squad considerably, generated significant profits in transfer fees and reduced the wage bill. We were growing as a group, with a developing playing identity.The targets given to me of improving infrastructure, creating an identity, and developing young players were all well under way – all alongside a training ground being developed. Unfortunately, after going through that process and putting in an incredible amount of work across the club, the situation changed after seven league games of the new season".
Unless he grows a pair and goes kicking and screaming to Sandgaard with demands of his own I fear this will end just as badly for him.
I think Garner's only option is to reconfigure the team to play to their strengths as far as possible and hope that an improvement in the football and league position results quickly, before he gets sacked for not playing the kind of football and formation the owner wishes to see.
Remaining compliant with the owner's wishes will result in a place in the relegation zone by November latest and he will loose the dressing room and then his job soon after.
Going kicking and screaming to Sandgaard is a non-starter if Sandgaard hasn't got the money or the desire to improve the squad in January.
Playing 433 with a Stockley as a lone striker and the current midfield does not work in League One, as three managers have now proved.
We might find out if it can work in League TTwonext season, unless it is abandoned and a formation that suits the current squad is substituted.
He actually bought into lowering the wage bill and making profits from player sales. He was prepared - in his own words - to take the flak, at least in the short term. The problem is football managers don't tend to get long terms to resolve issues and from the fans point of view watching your team languish in the bottom half of league one is frustrating to say the least - as our current attendance figures attest.
I may have over egged the 'kicking and screaming' bit, but I do worry with his history of compliance he wouldn't approach the owner in a way - say that Bowyer would - in respect to landing targets, that would actually improve the team and give us a realistic chance of competing with the best.
I agree with you in that he is between a rock and a hard place with Sandgaard. I just wonder how much he presses Sandgaard for a realistic budget - given his history at Bristol Rovers.
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The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit9
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Pretty tuneless to my ears, more repetitive but effective and gutteral , lines alternating between one Sandgaard or two!swordfish said:
Sung to what tune I want to know? Was it "knees up mother brown" and, if so, what lines made up the middle eight of the composition? Asking for a friend.😎wightaddick said:
Sounded quite loud to me, I was in the North West Quadrant.Smithy said:‘Sandgaard you’re a c***’ was being sung by about ten people behind me towards the end of the first half. The ground was so quiet it seems everyone heard it. Probably the kind of thing that would have got a lot more people joining in normally but the mood yesterday was of pure apathy. No one cares and that’s worse to me than everyone getting angry.0 -
The freehold to Millwall’s ground is publicly owned, which is more secure than a private landlord and a common model, especially in Europe. I’d have thought the actual buyers were the fantasists, as experience has shown.DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit4 -
Hate to break it to you all but I really don’t think he has any intention to sell.
It seems we’re in this for……………well, who the feck knows.
See you in December 🤷♀️0 - Sponsored links:
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What the fcuk are you on about?DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit1 -
I understood it to mean that we're sometimes linked with seriously loaded buyers, often when things have started to unravel under previous owners, but it never comes to pass for whatever reason, so we shouldn't kid ourselves it might anytime soon. I'll call it, 'playing the Barclay card', whether that's fair on him or not, which I don't believe it is, but I can see where @DOUCHER is coming from and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not getting involved in apportioning any blame for it though. It's just frustrating.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
What the fcuk are you on about?DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit
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Barclay was trying to destabilise ESI? Seriously?!1
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I didn't say he was.Airman Brown said:Barclay was trying to destabilise ESI? Seriously?!0 -
Doucher insinuated potential buyers were lurking to destabilise but never stump up.swordfish said:
I didn't say he was.Airman Brown said:Barclay was trying to destabilise ESI? Seriously?!
You dropped the 'Barclay card' line which is what AB has understandably tied them together.1 -
Yes, but only because Barclay and his other investors were seriously wealthy potential buyers that didn't buy, which was also what DOUCHER was referring to.Dazzler21 said:
Doucher insinuated potential buyers were lurking to destabilise but never stump up.swordfish said:
I didn't say he was.Airman Brown said:Barclay was trying to destabilise ESI? Seriously?!
You dropped the 'Barclay card' line which is what AB has understandably tied them together.4 -
I was particularly struck by the line "they and they're (sic) cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit".swordfish said:
I understood it to mean that we're sometimes linked with seriously loaded buyers, often when things have started to unravel under previous owners, but it never comes to pass for whatever reason, so we shouldn't kid ourselves it might anytime soon. I'll call it, 'playing the Barclay card', whether that's fair on him or not, which I don't believe it is, but I can see where @DOUCHER is coming from and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not getting involved in apportioning any blame for it though. It's just frustrating.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
What the fcuk are you on about?DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit
I'd love to know precisely what he means by that.
Edit: I mean, beyond the superficial, boohoo for not buying us. What "cheerleaders"?2 -
The problem with any serious buyer, wealthy or not is RD. The Aussies appeared serious contenders but Roland changed the goalposts at a crucial time and I think Barclay couldn't even gain an audience with Roland. Of those two it would appear the Aussies tried harder as they at least collected and wore their Charlton scarves before closing the door.7
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He's probably sitting with his feet up having a cup of coffee and a small cake laughing at us trying to make sense of his post 😎Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I was particularly struck by the line "they and they're (sic) cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit".swordfish said:
I understood it to mean that we're sometimes linked with seriously loaded buyers, often when things have started to unravel under previous owners, but it never comes to pass for whatever reason, so we shouldn't kid ourselves it might anytime soon. I'll call it, 'playing the Barclay card', whether that's fair on him or not, which I don't believe it is, but I can see where @DOUCHER is coming from and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not getting involved in apportioning any blame for it though. It's just frustrating.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
What the fcuk are you on about?DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit
I'd love to know precisely what he means by that.
Edit: I mean, beyond the superficial, boohoo for not buying us. What "cheerleaders"?1 -
well, you've always stated its virtually 'undevelopable' Airman so you can't ahve it both ways when it suits the argumentAirman Brown said:
The freehold to Millwall’s ground is publicly owned, which is more secure than a private landlord and a common model, especially in Europe. I’d have thought the actual buyers were the fantasists, as experience has shown.DOUCHER said:The only conclusion I can come to with all of this is jacko laid it on the line, said what was needed, TS had decided that wasn’t going to happen, he looked for a cheap manager option who could bring in cheap players and he also cut staff costs, raised ticket prices and will look to find a buyer who hopefully would be fooled into buying the club on some temporary business metrics - great - more years of shit and more years of looking for a saviour whilst being made apparently impossible by RD owning the grounds - millwall don’t own fuck all and they’ve got an owner who is willing to fund a decent side - I don’t want to hear any more about these fantasist potential buyers that are always lurking to destabilise things but never stump up when they have the opportunity - they and they’re cheerleaders are partly responsible for putting us in this shit1
