If decisions are to be made relating to millimetres then you have to judge EXACTLY when the ball is played. Now, is the ball played when the boot touches the ball or milliseconds later when it moves ? Also, would the player have been offside if he had smaller feet ? Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's been taken too far in my opinion.
I reckon 80% of those complaining about the decision on here, would have just said ‘Ha ha, never mind’ if it had been Man Utd who had the goal disallowed and then lost on penalties.
Yes, but it wouldn't alter my thoughts on the use of VAR. I assumed it to be like using DRS in cricket, there to rule out obvious errors of judgement by officials. A player standing with his big toenail offside isn't an obvious error imo. Personally I'd scrap VAR altogether in football, only using film footage retrospectively to penalise diving cheats.
VAR is killing football, IMHO. We are stuck with it now, as we are stuck with FIFA adding more and more competitions for the bigger clubs and internationals. I want us to get promoted to the Championship but am really not that bothered about getting back in to the Premier League, although I understand that might be the only way to ensure financial survival. Still wondering when the whole bubble is going to burst, it just can't go on forever like it is now.
Additionally, VAR failed to overturn the penalty given to Coventry - should never have gone to extra time in first place.
So we agree that VAR does not work then 👍🏼
Although that is my subjective opinion on the penalty, others may feel otherwise.
With ball going over the line or attacker being offside, it yes or no.
Genuine question - do you think that the on field decision re the offside was a clear and obvious error?
I may be wrong but they check all goals for offside right, so saying that VAR only steps in when there is a clear and obvious error is not true. They are using VAR to make all offside calls after a goal, of course that yesterday was as tight as could be. I like in rugby where the ref makes every decision, then if it’s close he will ask the video ref to look at it but his on field decision stands if the video can’t definitively prove he made a mistake. Personally I don’t think the video yesterday was definitive and I still maintain the technology on show cannot pick up an offside where you’re talking in mm. Blurry picture from a long distance and thick red and blue lines is not the height of accurate technology that you have for the goal line camera.
If decisions are to be made relating to millimetres then you have to judge EXACTLY when the ball is played. Now, is the ball played when the boot touches the ball or milliseconds later when it moves ? Also, would the player have been offside if he had smaller feet ? Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's been taken too far in my opinion.
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used
If decisions are to be made relating to millimetres then you have to judge EXACTLY when the ball is played. Now, is the ball played when the boot touches the ball or milliseconds later when it moves ? Also, would the player have been offside if he had smaller feet ? Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's been taken too far in my opinion.
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used
Agree…..but can VAR determine when that is….without making a clear and obvious error…….obviously?!?
Additionally, VAR failed to overturn the penalty given to Coventry - should never have gone to extra time in first place.
So we agree that VAR does not work then 👍🏼
Although that is my subjective opinion on the penalty, others may feel otherwise.
With ball going over the line or attacker being offside, it yes or no.
Genuine question - do you think that the on field decision re the offside was a clear and obvious error?
I may be wrong but they check all goals for offside right, so saying that VAR only steps in when there is a clear and obvious error is not true. They are using VAR to make all offside calls after a goal, of course that yesterday was as tight as could be. I like in rugby where the ref makes every decision, then if it’s close he will ask the video ref to look at it but his on field decision stands if the video can’t definitively prove he made a mistake. Personally I don’t think the video yesterday was definitive and I still maintain the technology on show cannot pick up an offside where you’re talking in mm. Blurry picture from a long distance and thick red and blue lines is not the height of accurate technology that you have for the goal line camera.
Surely instead of getting the micrometers out, after a quick look at a replay it's clear whether an obvious error has been made. If it hasn't, move the game on quickly and accept it was a marginal decision, which may or may not have been correct. Same for everyone. No unfair advantage.
If decisions are to be made relating to millimetres then you have to judge EXACTLY when the ball is played. Now, is the ball played when the boot touches the ball or milliseconds later when it moves ? Also, would the player have been offside if he had smaller feet ? Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's been taken too far in my opinion.
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used
Agree…..but can VAR determine when that is….without making a clear and obvious error…….obviously?!?
I was answering the question posted by @MikeBaileysFanClub with a factual answer. With regards to whether VAR can determine when that is, it can certainly determine it with much, much better accuracy than an Assistant Referee who will not be in line with the player and who will be concentrating on two, simultaneous events in different parts of the pitch. Will VAR get that right every time? Possbly not. Can it be proven wrong? No. Will it be substantially more accurate than an Assistant Referee? Of course.
Additionally, VAR failed to overturn the penalty given to Coventry - should never have gone to extra time in first place.
So we agree that VAR does not work then 👍🏼
Although that is my subjective opinion on the penalty, others may feel otherwise.
With ball going over the line or attacker being offside, it yes or no.
Genuine question - do you think that the on field decision re the offside was a clear and obvious error?
I may be wrong but they check all goals for offside right, so saying that VAR only steps in when there is a clear and obvious error is not true. They are using VAR to make all offside calls after a goal, of course that yesterday was as tight as could be. I like in rugby where the ref makes every decision, then if it’s close he will ask the video ref to look at it but his on field decision stands if the video can’t definitively prove he made a mistake. Personally I don’t think the video yesterday was definitive and I still maintain the technology on show cannot pick up an offside where you’re talking in mm. Blurry picture from a long distance and thick red and blue lines is not the height of accurate technology that you have for the goal line camera.
Surely instead of getting the micrometers out, after a quick look at a replay it's clear whether an obvious error has been made. If it hasn't, move the game on quickly and accept it was a marginal decision, which may or may not have been correct. Same for everyone. No unfair advantage.
I totally agree with you, my point was people banging on about it was definitely offside, but unless you take it to millimeters with high resolution images and having some sort of sensor to detect when the ball was kicked to a hundreth of a second they don't actually know. Of course that would be a ridiculous scenario but anything other than that means it's open to interpretation. If the ref gave that yesterday on the field unless they can definitely say it was offside, which they couldn't, it has to stand.
It has nothing to do with it being Man Utd and Coventry I couldn't care less for either team if I'm honest. I get behind goal line technology because it's clear and very quick to get a decision.
Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
But your making the assumption that every decision is going to be the same. Whats clear and obvious to you, isnt going to C&O to a Liverpool fan for example, because its so ambiguous
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
Additionally, VAR failed to overturn the penalty given to Coventry - should never have gone to extra time in first place.
Maybe but imo a clear shove on a defender using the palms of your hands as Mcguire did should be a penalty, so Coventry should have had a penalty earlier anyway.
now a 'controversy' over the VAR official for the Everton/Forest game .. claims that as a Luton Town fan he was biased against Forest and basically cheated Forest out of possibly three penalties. The game is more and more being being decided off the pitch, point deductions, threatened legal actions over 'bias' and 'cheating', perhaps the time has come to abandon VAR (it definitely WILL NOT happen) Also criticism of referees by managers and owners is now commonplace, criticism based on the ability to instantly see replays on screens owned by the manger/team 'official' sitting pitchside. The game today is fast, furious and full of cheating players, the referee is asked to make instant decisions affecting the careers of players and managers, club's future finances, league positions etc etc . It is a heavy responsibility and referees deserve more respect and consideration. This is surely why VAR was introduced, instead it too often seems to cause as much controversy as it solves We live in litigious times where, as said, off field decisions over (e.g.) drug taking, gambling, sexuality, bias and club finances decide sporting results .. ENOUGH .. BUT Pandora's box is open wide and lawyers will in future have as much say in sports results as on field referees and any number of VAR/TV cameras
Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
You mean... make it less accurate?
At the moment we are getting more accurate bad decisions, so yes.
And would it be better if we went back to having more wrong decisions?
It would be better if I could leap up and celebrate a goal after a nanoseconds glance at the linesman, yes. In our league we suffer from wrong decisions all the time, I get miffed (Cambridge "penalty") I get over it.
Like I said, it's not maths its a sport, players and managers make mistakes all the time, that doesn't spoil the enjoyment ( apart from when one of ours misses a sitter or passes the ball to an attacker... ).
Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
But your making the assumption that every decision is going to be the same. Whats clear and obvious to you, isnt going to C&O to a Liverpool fan for example, because its so ambiguous
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
Do you think the game is more fluid with the introduction of VAR?
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
Thought the Coventry player was offside and VAR got it right under 'the slide rule knows best' way things are judged.
But there were some very dodgy calls in the Everton/Forest game. The Luton fan accusation stuff is daft, the better result for Luton was for Forest to grab a draw...but at least two of the three calls were wrong. The 'handball' is a penalty call in other games this season particularly as the player's arm stopped a cross. The last 'tackle' was a stonewall penalty and the ref should have been called to the screen. VAR officials are not bias but are incompetent and inconsistent.
Comments
Also, would the player have been offside if he had smaller feet ?
Offside was brought in to stop goal hanging. It's been taken too far in my opinion.
I don’t like , then again I like watch8ng live football at the game ….
For me. , over a season , decisions balance out.
*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used
VAR is making the game sterile
It has nothing to do with it being Man Utd and Coventry I couldn't care less for either team if I'm honest. I get behind goal line technology because it's clear and very quick to get a decision.
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
The game is more and more being being decided off the pitch, point deductions, threatened legal actions over 'bias' and 'cheating', perhaps the time has come to abandon VAR (it definitely WILL NOT happen)
Also criticism of referees by managers and owners is now commonplace, criticism based on the ability to instantly see replays on screens owned by the manger/team 'official' sitting pitchside.
The game today is fast, furious and full of cheating players, the referee is asked to make instant decisions affecting the careers of players and managers, club's future finances, league positions etc etc . It is a heavy responsibility and referees deserve more respect and consideration.
This is surely why VAR was introduced, instead it too often seems to cause as much controversy as it solves We live in litigious times where, as said, off field decisions over (e.g.) drug taking, gambling, sexuality, bias and club finances decide sporting results .. ENOUGH .. BUT Pandora's box is open wide and lawyers will in future have as much say in sports results as on field referees and any number of VAR/TV cameras
Like I said, it's not maths its a sport, players and managers make mistakes all the time, that doesn't spoil the enjoyment ( apart from when one of ours misses a sitter or passes the ball to an attacker...
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
But there were some very dodgy calls in the Everton/Forest game. The Luton fan accusation stuff is daft, the better result for Luton was for Forest to grab a draw...but at least two of the three calls were wrong. The 'handball' is a penalty call in other games this season particularly as the player's arm stopped a cross. The last 'tackle' was a stonewall penalty and the ref should have been called to the screen. VAR officials are not bias but are incompetent and inconsistent.