I think it throws up an interesting point.
How about when she makes a mistake, which will inevitably happen as it does to us all and half a dozen burly blokes are fronting her up finger-pointing and spitting with rage just as you see every week up and down the country.
I don't think I'd be very comfortable with the level of aggression we see dished out to male officials who we perceive (rightly or wrongly) can handle it, inflicted upon a lady.
[cite]Posted By: nolly[/cite]Its not a racist comment its regarding sport i personally think that woman assistant refs would not perform as well as male refs if this was to be proved without any tampering of stone cold facts would this be sexist or just fact.
It doesn't matter if you believe that or not (based on no evidence I would add) what matters is can this particular person, regardless of their gender, perform the role.
In her case she will have undertaken the same tests, same fitness training, run the line in lower divisions and be assessed. She has been assessed as qualified to do the job so she is doing the job on her own merits.
That doesn't mean that Curb-it or stilladdickted or any other woman can do the job any more than Andy D'Urso (a man) doing the job means I would be a better referee than them.
Each of us should be judged on our own ability to perform that role, not pre-judged as being suitable or not suitable on grounds of gender.
I think it's appalling. I also agree because it's a sexist comment and not a racist one it'll be treated differently, less harsh. Keys and Gray need a dose of reality and get over themselves. Hopefully right now, at the very least they're eating a huge slice of humble pie.
I have met Ms Massey and lined for her last year on the Women's FA Cup semi final and then I noticed a bit of accidental prejudice. The game was at Staines Town FC of the Blue Square Bet South. Their officials were there and so were we. Sian in the middle, me on one line, the other assistant was a woman (who had just been promoted to football league line) and the 4th official, a man. The officials quite innocently came over and shook my hand and my male colleagues hand and seemed to totally ignore Sian and Sarah. On that day I couldn't fault Sian. She had a very good game, very nice person, very professional and very hard working. She deserves all the promotions and plaudits coming her way. If she's good enough to do it then why not? Match officials are promoted on merit regardless of creed, colour, gender, relegion etc etc Why be singled out for not being good enough just for being a woman?
As for Keys and Gray they need to fast forward their views about 50 years. Also, it would teach Gray well to know the offside law. I find his commentary annoying, obvious and often incorrect in law.
I was impressed with her decision on Saturday as I think most linos would have given offside. Even if it was slightly offside, I would have have been happy as a big issue I have with linos is that they give a wrong decision on something that hasn't happend. If something happens (e.g. Offside) and they miss it- fair enough. But if something hasn't happened and they say it has- they are not up to the job.
In terms of women generally- my wife enjoys watching football but she never will undersatnd offside - I've tried to explain enough times. But I'm sure any woman lino will fully understand. Gary and keys could have been having a privite tongue in cheek conv - the sort we are having here so they shouldn't be judged too harshly.
BTW- What do you think when you are on your holiday jet and you find the pilot is a woman? I was ashamed of myself for feeling a little apprehensive last year - but it was sub conscious. Probably a lot of us have some in grown sexism. She piloted the plane fine by the way except the landing was on the rough side.
Nice post, Spankie, and a real example of what Ms Massey must have to put up with most weeks - even without the Sky twonks. The truth is, she will actually have to be better than most men to get promoted through the ranks in the "men's game" - or at the very least, a lot more determined and thick-skinned.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]
BTW- What do you think when you are on your holiday jet and you find the pilot is a woman? I was ashamed of myself for feeling a little apprehensive last year - but it was sub conscious. Probably a lot of us have some in grown sexism. She piloted the plane fine by the way except the landing was on the rough side.
The irony of complaining about female referees and then moaning about Brady talking about the attitudes face by women working in football, is the only funny thing about this episode.
In terms of women generally- my wife enjoys watching football but she never will undersatnd offside -
But that's not really women "generally" is it? It's one woman.
Now more men follow and play football than women. That is a verifiable fact so it would be reasonable to assume that more men than women understand the off-side rule. That doesn't men that woman can't understand it just that fewer have the interest to find out. There will be other social activities where more woman understand the concept than men because more woman partake in it.
The issue here is does this particular woman know the offside rule? Yes, she does. Can she keep up with play and do the rest of a lino/ref's job. According to Spankie (who is qualified to comment unlike the rest of us) and the FA and FAPL assessors yes she is. End of.
[cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]The irony of complaining about female referees and then moaning about Brady talking about the attitudes face by women working in football, is the only funny thing about this episode.
wholeheartedly agree:
Later in the exchange, Mr Keys said: ‘The game’s gone mad. Did you hear charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Do me a favour, love.’
Whilst its nice to hear Spankie, I really wish you didn't have to justify her. (and please don't take this the wrong way)
Males in football never have to justify themselves, why should a female referee have to be verified by people who have met her.
Its similar to race and homophobic attitudes. Men feel they can justify it by saying 'I know you care about it, but its all them others' see also 'I know you don't carry a gun but gang violence is a black issue.' and 'I bet that gay bloke fancies me.'
White males just don't have any appreciation of what it is like being forced to justify your entire sex, race, religion. Most females in football do not want to be feminist icons, demanding equal rights, we just want to watch football and talk nonsense about it afterwards.
Henry has it spot on. I could easily say that my wife doesn't understand the offside rule - she doesn't. That is an opinion but its based on fact. If I said "my wife, like all women doesn't understand the offside rule", it may be true that she doesn't but its sexist and prejudicial to refer to "all women".
It was a private remark, it may have been a joke but it is similar to the Atkinson racist remark in that apart from the unacceptable language used, it was the prejudicial nature of the remark which was most reprehensible.
Even Kenny Dalglish is getting in on the act...at a news conference this morning, he asked the Sky reporter if he minded that there was a female reporter present...Nice one, Kenny!
Henry - you miss my point. My wife doesn't understand offside because she doesn't need to. I undersatnd it because I played the game and had to understand it as probably most on here did- it can be complicated and nuances change over time - remember the clear air rule. Women that need to understand the rule do and lots of current managers say they don't really understanding it with the complications in regards of interferring with play.
More women are likely not to understand the rule than men so we can generalise as we refer affectionately to our female friends and partners who openly admit they haven't got a clue. Same as men being better drivers than women when the statistics paint a different story.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]More women are likely not to understand the rule than men so we can generalise as we refer affectionately to our female friends and partners who openly admit they haven't got a clue. Same as men being better drivers than women when the statistics paint a different story.
That is your opinion but what it does is reinforce a stereotypical image of women which is based on a pre-judgement about most women. Keys & Gray were specifically taking a pre-judged position and applying it to this assistant referee. It is this which is wrong.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Henry - you miss my point. My wife doesn't understand offside because she doesn't need to. I undersatnd it because I played the game and had to understand it as probably most on here did- it can be complicated and nuances change over time - remember the clear air rule. Women that need to understand the rule do and lots of current managers say they don't really understanding it with the complications in regards of interferring with play.
More women are likely not to understand the rule than men so we can generalise as we refer affectionately to our female friends and partners who openly admit they haven't got a clue. Same as men being better drivers than women when the statistics paint a different story.
Sorry, I didn't miss your point at all. You've now made a different point and are in fact agreeing with what I said, albeit in a rather strange way.
They may have been on may have also been having a private machismo moment which lots of men on here have indulged in and are doing so now (including myself). I'm sure women complain about men when they are together - sometimes unfairly. In all honesty and I have said this before- I haven't got a problem with women refs and linos. For a woman to get to that level in the game with all the obstacles they face- they have to be pretty good at what they do.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]They may have been on may have also been having a private machismo moment which lots of men on here have indulged in.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]They may have been on may have also been having a private machismo moment which lots of men on here have indulged in and are doing so now (including myself). I'm sure women complain about men when they are together - sometimes unfairly. In all honesty and I have said this before- I haven't got a problem with women refs and linos. For a woman to get to that level in the game with all the obstacles they face- they have to be pretty good at what they do.
See this is the point that men (and yes I appreciate the ironic generalisation) just don't get.
Don't pass this off by saying ‘oh women moan about men too’. The same as saying 'I've got black friends' doesn't prove you are not racists, these type of comments only proves you are patronising.
It is not for you to be' OK' with women in football, 20 years ago black footballers weren't 'asking' for your acceptance of them, they just did what they were good at and attitudes changed.
The only way this will change is when enough women come through that it stops being an indentifying factor.
Then we can all go back to just slagging off officials because we hate authority.
[cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]See this is the point that men (and yes I appreciate the ironic generalisation) just don't get.
Don't pass this off by saying ‘oh women moan about men too’. The same as saying 'I've got black friends' doesn't prove you are not racists, these type of comments only proves you are patronising.
It is not for you to be' OK' with women in football, 20 years ago black footballers weren't 'asking' for your acceptance of them, they just did what they were good at and attitudes changed.
The only way this will change is when enough women come through that it stops being an indentifying factor.
Then we can all go back to just slagging off officials because we hate authority.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]
Keys and Gray are two of the worst offenders on not understanding the offside rule.
I hate Richard Keys, anyone who gets the hair on his hands lasered off because he's in HD deserves the sack
Spot on. Although on first read I thought you were making a point about him getting his sack lazered, which is something I didn't want to think about. Keys smirking away in his self satisfied manner, while he caresses his smooth bag is an image I didn't think I'd ever have to confront.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]They may have been on may have also been having a private machismo moment which lots of men on here have indulged in and are doing so now (including myself). I'm sure women complain about men when they are together - sometimes unfairly. In all honesty and I have said this before- I haven't got a problem with women refs and linos. For a woman to get to that level in the game with all the obstacles they face- they have to be pretty good at what they do.
See this is the point that men (and yes I appreciate the ironic generalisation) just don't get.
Don't pass this off by saying ‘oh women moan about men too’. The same as saying 'I've got black friends' doesn't prove you are not racists, these type of comments only proves you are patronising.
It is not for you to be' OK' with women in football, 20 years ago black footballers weren't 'asking' for your acceptance of them, they just did what they were good at and attitudes changed.
The only way this will change is when enough women come through that it stops being an indentifying factor.
Then we can all go back to just slagging off officials because we hate authority.
!00% agree, look forward to hearing 'You're too fit to referee' in the future? :-)
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Same as men being better drivers than women when the statistics paint a different story.
hmm arguable like all of this topic.
Women in the UK make slightly more insurance claims than men each year, so are they better than male drivers?
Male driving insurance claims are significantly higher value. so does this make women better drivers?
Or shall we go down the accidents per mile route...
Generalisations/stereotypes can be useful converstational short-cuts. When they are patently nonsense or offensive is when they should be highlighted.
Only scan read all the soapbox posts, but love Spankie's post. You get all the armchair ingrained opinions and then someone pop's up and says 'yeah, i worked for her and she was really good'. :-)
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Only scan read all the soapbox posts, but love Spankie's post. You get all the armchair ingrained opinions and then someone pop's up and says 'yeah, i worked for her and she was really good'. :-)
What, using direct knowledge of the subject as the basis of a forum posting? Surely that's cheating? Ban him! Ban him I say!!!!!
But when men get together they moan and are patronising towards women, same as women are towards men. Of course women don't need my approval but we are having a discussion and I am giving my view. You have to get behind the fake machismo to identify the real issues and if you get bogged down criticising men who actually do believe women are equal, when they might not be toatlly serious you are aiming at the wrong targets.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]But when men get together they moan and are patronising towards women
Are they? Guess I - and all my mates - must not be 'men' then - thanks for clearing that up. Goodness me, what are those things between my legs? They can't be testicles (because I'm not a man)
Comments
How about when she makes a mistake, which will inevitably happen as it does to us all and half a dozen burly blokes are fronting her up finger-pointing and spitting with rage just as you see every week up and down the country.
I don't think I'd be very comfortable with the level of aggression we see dished out to male officials who we perceive (rightly or wrongly) can handle it, inflicted upon a lady.
It doesn't matter if you believe that or not (based on no evidence I would add) what matters is can this particular person, regardless of their gender, perform the role.
In her case she will have undertaken the same tests, same fitness training, run the line in lower divisions and be assessed. She has been assessed as qualified to do the job so she is doing the job on her own merits.
That doesn't mean that Curb-it or stilladdickted or any other woman can do the job any more than Andy D'Urso (a man) doing the job means I would be a better referee than them.
Each of us should be judged on our own ability to perform that role, not pre-judged as being suitable or not suitable on grounds of gender.
I have met Ms Massey and lined for her last year on the Women's FA Cup semi final and then I noticed a bit of accidental prejudice. The game was at Staines Town FC of the Blue Square Bet South. Their officials were there and so were we. Sian in the middle, me on one line, the other assistant was a woman (who had just been promoted to football league line) and the 4th official, a man. The officials quite innocently came over and shook my hand and my male colleagues hand and seemed to totally ignore Sian and Sarah. On that day I couldn't fault Sian. She had a very good game, very nice person, very professional and very hard working. She deserves all the promotions and plaudits coming her way. If she's good enough to do it then why not? Match officials are promoted on merit regardless of creed, colour, gender, relegion etc etc Why be singled out for not being good enough just for being a woman?
As for Keys and Gray they need to fast forward their views about 50 years. Also, it would teach Gray well to know the offside law. I find his commentary annoying, obvious and often incorrect in law.
In terms of women generally- my wife enjoys watching football but she never will undersatnd offside - I've tried to explain enough times. But I'm sure any woman lino will fully understand. Gary and keys could have been having a privite tongue in cheek conv - the sort we are having here so they shouldn't be judged too harshly.
BTW- What do you think when you are on your holiday jet and you find the pilot is a woman? I was ashamed of myself for feeling a little apprehensive last year - but it was sub conscious. Probably a lot of us have some in grown sexism. She piloted the plane fine by the way except the landing was on the rough side.
Can't believe she managed to park it properly.
But that's not really women "generally" is it? It's one woman.
Now more men follow and play football than women. That is a verifiable fact so it would be reasonable to assume that more men than women understand the off-side rule. That doesn't men that woman can't understand it just that fewer have the interest to find out. There will be other social activities where more woman understand the concept than men because more woman partake in it.
The issue here is does this particular woman know the offside rule? Yes, she does. Can she keep up with play and do the rest of a lino/ref's job. According to Spankie (who is qualified to comment unlike the rest of us) and the FA and FAPL assessors yes she is. End of.
wholeheartedly agree:
Later in the exchange, Mr Keys said: ‘The game’s gone mad. Did you hear charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Do me a favour, love.’
so ironic it hurts!
Males in football never have to justify themselves, why should a female referee have to be verified by people who have met her.
Its similar to race and homophobic attitudes. Men feel they can justify it by saying 'I know you care about it, but its all them others' see also 'I know you don't carry a gun but gang violence is a black issue.' and 'I bet that gay bloke fancies me.'
White males just don't have any appreciation of what it is like being forced to justify your entire sex, race, religion. Most females in football do not want to be feminist icons, demanding equal rights, we just want to watch football and talk nonsense about it afterwards.
It was a private remark, it may have been a joke but it is similar to the Atkinson racist remark in that apart from the unacceptable language used, it was the prejudicial nature of the remark which was most reprehensible.
More women are likely not to understand the rule than men so we can generalise as we refer affectionately to our female friends and partners who openly admit they haven't got a clue. Same as men being better drivers than women when the statistics paint a different story.
That is your opinion but what it does is reinforce a stereotypical image of women which is based on a pre-judgement about most women. Keys & Gray were specifically taking a pre-judged position and applying it to this assistant referee. It is this which is wrong.
Sorry, I didn't miss your point at all. You've now made a different point and are in fact agreeing with what I said, albeit in a rather strange way.
So they were cracking one off too
Good.
See this is the point that men (and yes I appreciate the ironic generalisation) just don't get.
Don't pass this off by saying ‘oh women moan about men too’. The same as saying 'I've got black friends' doesn't prove you are not racists, these type of comments only proves you are patronising.
It is not for you to be' OK' with women in football, 20 years ago black footballers weren't 'asking' for your acceptance of them, they just did what they were good at and attitudes changed.
The only way this will change is when enough women come through that it stops being an indentifying factor.
Then we can all go back to just slagging off officials because we hate authority.
This! Spot on.
are you sure they just haven't got a good dinner ready at home ;-)
!00% agree, look forward to hearing 'You're too fit to referee' in the future? :-)
hmm arguable like all of this topic.
Women in the UK make slightly more insurance claims than men each year, so are they better than male drivers?
Male driving insurance claims are significantly higher value. so does this make women better drivers?
Or shall we go down the accidents per mile route...
Generalisations/stereotypes can be useful converstational short-cuts. When they are patently nonsense or offensive is when they should be highlighted.