I refer you to an earlier post about putting people in boxes so you can dismiss their views as invalid rather than having to construct a counter argument.
DRF wrote" Why didn't your parents just teach you to be respectful to people? Then you wouldn't need to have a patronising distinction between who can engage you in debate and who cannot. "
DRF in reply to your above question to me on the previous page:
1) I didn't say it was my parents who taught me and "respectfully" as you are a complete stranger to me dont be talking about them.
2) Nowhere did I say I wasn't taught to be respectful to people I just said I was taught to give extra respect to women.
3) Regading the last sentence of your post...when I require lessons in life from posters on a football forum I'll be sure that you are the first person I contact.
I think DRF's point is that you don't need to give women extra respect, just the same as everyone else, and they may find your refusal to engage in debate with them just because they're women as annoying as you arguing with them. And on a forum like this one, where lots of people don't use their real names, you don't necessarily know whether you're debating with a woman or not. Am I a woman? Is BingAddick? Is Curb-It? Is DRF? Is EssexAddick? Is falconwood_1? Most of the time it shouldn't really matter, as all our opinions should stand for themselves.
Fair enough Ali and I see that point but at the end of the day I have my outlook on life and others have theirs.
As I pointed out in the original post DRF cited, it probably is "sexist" of me but I'm not going to change because it is deemed by others to be.
Same way that ill do the "traditionally men's" stuff at home like chasing hoodies off down the street for making a nuisance of themselves or checking for burglars when something goes bang in the night rather than getting my girlfriend to Ill also initially extend "extra" respect to women because of their gender. Don't know why, just something ingrained in me.
Suits my missus and vice versa. Men and women are different in my mind and whilst there should be equality in the majority of facets of society (and certainly no prejudice) I also think the differences should be embraced in certain cirumstances.
Not talking bout the "little woman indoors" mentality... just saying that sometimes men should be men and women, women. Very un pc probably but i wont be resigning for it and any women that know me I very much doubt would change the way i treat them.
And look at Karen Brady's employment history to see how all this sexist stuff is nonsence. She works for a porn baron. Keys has said it was private sarcastic banter -its the sort many non sexist people might come out with after somebody like Karen Brady complains about sexism. You have to see this as a bit of a witch hunt.
Well if you don't know how do you expect the rest of us to? : - )
Good points though Alison/Alistair. I can see where Rodney is coming from having been brought up, for example, not to swear in front of women. But not debating with a woman because she is woman (if indeed we know) not, don't get that. Maybe the language is different but females can debate just as well as men.
Agree with the irony re Brady, Muttley. I don't think she has earnt the right to dish out business advice to other women on The Apprentice - she didn't exactly spend years working her way to the top on intellectual talent alone...
But that still doesn't excuse the orginal "discussion" between Keys and Gray.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]And look at Karen Brady's employment history to see how all this sexist stuff is nonsence. She works for a porn baron. Keys has said it was private sarcastic banter -its the sort many non sexist people might come out with after somebody like Karen Brady complains about sexism. You have to see this as a bit of a witch hunt.
Karen Brady was spokeswoman for the Sunday Sport when she first came to prominence- a sexist paper if ever I saw one - not forgetting all the porn mags in the Gold era. She works for him now! Just saying, she isn't the ideal person to represent anti sexist sentiment.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Karen Brady was spokeswoman for the Sunday Sport when she first came to prominence- a sexist paper if ever I saw one - not forgetting all the porn mags in the Gold era. She works for him now! Just saying, she isn't the ideal person to represent anti sexist sentiment.
OK I can see that. Not quite the same as "all this sexist stuff is nonsence."
Never read any of KBs columns or know much about her but she is still the only woman CEO in league football as far as I know. What does that tell you?
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]DRF wrote" Why didn't your parents just teach you to be respectful to people? Then you wouldn't need to have a patronising distinction between who can engage you in debate and who cannot. "
DRF in reply to your above question to me on the previous page:
1) I didn't say it was my parents who taught me and "respectfully" as you are a complete stranger to me dont be talking about them.
2) Nowhere did I say I wasn't taught to be respectful to people I just said I was taught to give extra respect to women.
3) Regading the last sentence of your post...when I require lessons in life from posters on a football forum I'll be sure that you are the first person I contact.
With all due respect.
You appear to be arguing with me and I would rather you didn't, it's too much for my delicate female eyes to read.
Henners i didnt say i wouldnt debate with women and i often do...i said i wouldnt argue. I know that's semantics and as Ali points out I dont know the gender of 99% of posters . What i mean is that if i was disagreeing with you for example (whom i know to be male) about something as i have done on here many times in the past i would perhaps be more aggressive/ assertive/ forthwright in getting my point accross and probably less patient and understanding knowing you to be a man than i would if you were female.
Very sexist i suppose when i put it like that but it's sexism out of respect for women rather than lack of respect that would make me tone it down.
In addition to this I would probably extend more diplomacy to the posters I dont know on here (whether they are male or female) than I would to the few people on here Im pals with in the real world becuase that lack of familiarity means you dont know how offended someone may be or not or whether they get ur sense of humour etc so probably am more tactful.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]DRF wrote" Why didn't your parents just teach you to be respectful to people? Then you wouldn't need to have a patronising distinction between who can engage you in debate and who cannot. "
DRF in reply to your above question to me on the previous page:
1) I didn't say it was my parents who taught me and "respectfully" as you are a complete stranger to me dont be talking about them.
2) Nowhere did I say I wasn't taught to be respectful to people I just said I was taught to give extra respect to women.
3) Regading the last sentence of your post...when I require lessons in life from posters on a football forum I'll be sure that you are the first person I contact.
With all due respect.
You appear to be arguing with me and I would rather you didn't, it's too much for my delicate female eyes to read.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Henners i didnt say i wouldnt debate with women and i often do...i said i wouldnt argue. I know that's semantics and as Ali points out I dont know the gender of 99% of posters . What i mean is that if i was disagreeing with you for example (whom i know to be male) about something as i have done on here many times in the past i would perhaps be more aggressive/ assertive/ forthwright in getting my point accross and probably less patient and understanding knowing you to be a man than i would if you were female.
Very sexist i suppose when i put it like that but it's sexism out of respect for women rather than lack of respect that would make me tone it down.
In addition to this I would probably extend more diplomacy to the posters I dont know on here (whether they are male or female) than I would to the few people on here Im pals with in the real world becuase that lack of familiarity means you dont know how offended someone may be or not or whether they get ur sense of humour etc so probably am more tactful.
Fair enough. I always debate, it's the other people who argue. : - )
Fair enough - It is hypocritical rather than nonsense - she is acting as being wounded when she has built her career in a sexist organisation and to do that she hasn't fought against sexism but embraced it. I think Keys was aiming it at Brady rather than Massey - who is probably feeling rotten right now and is being used in a cause she doesn't seem to want to get involved in. Everybody who hasn't said something they don't mean in a PRIVATE conversation/banter can possibly take the high ground - the rest of us should be a bit more circumspect.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]DRF wrote" Why didn't your parents just teach you to be respectful to people? Then you wouldn't need to have a patronising distinction between who can engage you in debate and who cannot. "
DRF in reply to your above question to me on the previous page:
1) I didn't say it was my parents who taught me and "respectfully" as you are a complete stranger to me dont be talking about them.
2) Nowhere did I say I wasn't taught to be respectful to people I just said I was taught to give extra respect to women.
3) Regading the last sentence of your post...when I require lessons in life from posters on a football forum I'll be sure that you are the first person I contact.
With all due respect.
You appear to be arguing with me and I would rather you didn't, it's too much for my delicate female eyes to read.
Fair enough petal.
I used to work with a woman called Petal.
Once asked what the word "w*****" meant in a team meeting. Very funny but I wasn't going to give an answer.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Karen Brady was spokeswoman for the Sunday Sport when she first came to prominence- a sexist paper if ever I saw one - not forgetting all the porn mags in the Gold era. She works for him now! Just saying, she isn't the ideal person to represent anti sexist sentiment.
OK I can see that. Not quite the same as "all this sexist stuff is nonsence."
Never read any of KBs columns or know much about her but she is still the only woman CEO in league football as far as I know. What does that tell you?
Morts, the Rollins I have read is the Black Coffee trilogy. There are some excellent bits in there and the odd part that falls flat, not least because Rollins' moods can affect how he sees the world and sometimes he just gets on a nihilist streak which can get a little tiresome. However, I actually found the book to also be inspirational in a way because it motivates you to ignore other people's shit and hang ups and just get on with living your life. In that sense it can also be a liberating read. If you have ever seen any of his spoken word stuff, you will know that he tells a story very well, and this also applies to his books, which is a big plus compared to some other 'muso-literature' that I have read. You will especially like e.g the first book if you happen to like Black Flag and all the SST California punk scene. Most of it is very entertaining as it consists of him touring the world and you get his thoughts on the places he visits (not least our own dear blighty!) and the people he encounters, some of them famous....but I particularly remember him having massive contempt for Trent Reznor (he did a number of tours with NIN) who he would go out of his way to piss off because of the way he treated the people around him and the supersize ego that he obviously possesses.....
Sorry for interupting the battle of the sexes.....on you go.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Fair enough - It is hypocritical rather than nonsense - she is acting as being wounded when she has built her career in a sexist organisation and to do that she hasn't fought against sexism but embraced it. I think Keys was aiming it at Brady rather than Massey - who is probably feeling rotten right now and is being used in a cause she doesn't seem to want to get involved in. Everybody who hasn't said something they don't mean in a PRIVATE conversation/banter can possibly take the high ground - the rest of us should be a bit more circumspect.
not going to fight KBs corner for her but she might argue that she has succeeded despite it being a sexist organisation in the same way that women in the Prison service or black people in the Police have overcome prejudice to build careers and bring about change.
If woman walked out as soon as they encounter sexism 1. they would have very short careers and 2. The sexists win.
I agree the Sunday sport and Porn is different as the product itself is sexually exploitive and sexist.
You don't see many female owners of football clubs - but money buys a club - you don't appoint an owner. could it be because none have been interested to date.
At the moment i work with a guy who tells people he is an old style marxist who was once a squatter and went on marches blah blah blah and i also work with a lady who is a lesbian married (recently) to her long term partner and tell people she is an Irish Republican (or her family are).Its a laugh onme that they are two of my key collegues. But i have told him im from the far right of gengis Khan and did have to tell her that the IRA shot my friend and his mum --------we of course dont discuss certain stuff. To me thats respect(both ways)
Of course the day i leave here i will burn them both.
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Karen Brady become MD of Birmingham FC at the age of 23. Think it was more a case of whom she knew rather than what she knew...
Really Weggie? You know this for fact? Asking as I myself don't know
Millwall had a women CE for awhile Heather Rabbatts. She definately worked her way through her business as I couldn't see Theo giving a job to someone just because she was a women.
Comments
Stopped reading at this point...
The Telegraph must be struggling to fill columns
DRF in reply to your above question to me on the previous page:
1) I didn't say it was my parents who taught me and "respectfully" as you are a complete stranger to me dont be talking about them.
2) Nowhere did I say I wasn't taught to be respectful to people I just said I was taught to give extra respect to women.
3) Regading the last sentence of your post...when I require lessons in life from posters on a football forum I'll be sure that you are the first person I contact.
With all due respect.
As I pointed out in the original post DRF cited, it probably is "sexist" of me but I'm not going to change because it is deemed by others to be.
Same way that ill do the "traditionally men's" stuff at home like chasing hoodies off down the street for making a nuisance of themselves or checking for burglars when something goes bang in the night rather than getting my girlfriend to Ill also initially extend "extra" respect to women because of their gender. Don't know why, just something ingrained in me.
Suits my missus and vice versa. Men and women are different in my mind and whilst there should be equality in the majority of facets of society (and certainly no prejudice) I also think the differences should be embraced in certain cirumstances.
Not talking bout the "little woman indoors" mentality... just saying that sometimes men should be men and women, women. Very un pc probably but i wont be resigning for it and any women that know me I very much doubt would change the way i treat them.
Ha ha that's why I have to Mind'er when we are shopping for motors mate.
Well if you don't know how do you expect the rest of us to? : - )
Good points though Alison/Alistair. I can see where Rodney is coming from having been brought up, for example, not to swear in front of women. But not debating with a woman because she is woman (if indeed we know) not, don't get that. Maybe the language is different but females can debate just as well as men.
But that still doesn't excuse the orginal "discussion" between Keys and Gray.
Really? None of that makes sense.
OK I can see that. Not quite the same as "all this sexist stuff is nonsence."
Never read any of KBs columns or know much about her but she is still the only woman CEO in league football as far as I know. What does that tell you?
You appear to be arguing with me and I would rather you didn't, it's too much for my delicate female eyes to read.
Very sexist i suppose when i put it like that but it's sexism out of respect for women rather than lack of respect that would make me tone it down.
In addition to this I would probably extend more diplomacy to the posters I dont know on here (whether they are male or female) than I would to the few people on here Im pals with in the real world becuase that lack of familiarity means you dont know how offended someone may be or not or whether they get ur sense of humour etc so probably am more tactful.
Fair enough petal.
Fair enough. I always debate, it's the other people who argue. : - )
I used to work with a woman called Petal.
Once asked what the word "w*****" meant in a team meeting. Very funny but I wasn't going to give an answer.
She loves it?
Sorry for interupting the battle of the sexes.....on you go.
not going to fight KBs corner for her but she might argue that she has succeeded despite it being a sexist organisation in the same way that women in the Prison service or black people in the Police have overcome prejudice to build careers and bring about change.
If woman walked out as soon as they encounter sexism 1. they would have very short careers and 2. The sexists win.
I agree the Sunday sport and Porn is different as the product itself is sexually exploitive and sexist.
I'm not having the end of my nob snipped off.
At the moment i work with a guy who tells people he is an old style marxist who was once a squatter and went on marches blah blah blah and i also work with a lady who is a lesbian married (recently) to her long term partner and tell people she is an Irish Republican (or her family are).Its a laugh onme that they are two of my key collegues.
But i have told him im from the far right of gengis Khan and did have to tell her that the IRA shot my friend and his mum --------we of course dont discuss certain stuff. To me thats respect(both ways)
Of course the day i leave here i will burn them both.
Really Weggie? You know this for fact? Asking as I myself don't know
Millwall had a women CE for awhile Heather Rabbatts. She definately worked her way through her business as I couldn't see Theo giving a job to someone just because she was a women.