A win against Blackburn will change the picture considerably. When only 3 points are what separates the bottom three anything can happen. Millwall are no way out of it at all. But if they do go down Berylson will have another big deficit to cover. I really do not understand why he pumps so much investment into them. Must just love hearing the 'Milllllllll' chant I guess?
Conned by Theo Paphitis, Fooled by thinking Millwall would attract corporate clients from the city, Mugged by Lewisham council selling the redevelopment land. Can see him walking.
How was he conned by Paphitus?
Yep, there was quite a big gap between Paphitis and Berylson. Other than that, amazed how much you lot know about our club. And 13 page thread on us? And we're YOUR cup final?? Obsessed springs to mind.
2 weeks ago your crowd v us was 16k. On saturday your crowd was less than 9k. You lot must've all been skint after turning out for your biggest game of the season. Your biggest crowd is always against us. Our biggest crowd is never against you. I think it's quite clear that we are YOUR cup final. Thanks for coming.
The game against you was the one everyone thought would save us and condemn you. We didn't get the result and now everyone has given up and preparing for Division 3 next season.
Funnily enough, very few teams, if any, have their biggest crowds of the season against us. It doesn't take a genius to work out why, as people on here comment quite regularly on why people are turned off from seeing a Millwall match.
That's really sad if it's true. I don't think any of the teams in the bottom four are unable to get out of it. I do think that Birmingham (especially after they beat you) are going to be ok now but if I'm right (and it is a rare occurrence) then there is still one place for the bottom four to fight over. Giving up with ten games to go is tragic, especially when you were still 4th from bottom after we played you.
3 years of gradual painful declince has seemed to take it's toll. Seems many are convinced we're relegated.
I honestly don't think you are yet. I grant you I think your situation is worse than ours currently but that can soon change. You got a 0 - 1 win at Derby just a few weeks ago and were only moments from three points v Blackburn.
Three out of the current four will drop but I see that four as being very fluid at the moment.
Looking at the Millwall managers list is interesting but doesn't show what division the spanners were playing in. If you think about it, winning a third of your games is doing pretty well both for Millwall and Charlton because it means you would be contenders, or at least above average. (It's different for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd.) I always thought Benny Fenton was a good manager but he was given plenty of stick from their fans, as were Macarthy and McGhee but they all had a very good record overall. I suppose it is the old story when you lose four or five games on the spin the Chairman panics and sacks the manager. Graham was a great manager for them plus the Doc did well to take the up to the top flight. Fenton should have been our manager after Jimmy Seed but was bypassed for Trotter. BTW we should not crow about Millwall being likely to get relegated cos we may well go down as well with Barnsley giving it a real go and our strikers being piss poor.
Looking at the Millwall managers list is interesting but doesn't show what division the spanners were playing in. If you think about it, winning a third of your games is doing pretty well both for Millwall and Charlton because it means you would be contenders, or at least above average. (It's different for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd.) I always thought Benny Fenton was a good manager but he was given plenty of stick from their fans, as were Macarthy and McGhee but they all had a very good record overall. I suppose it is the old story when you lose four or five games on the spin the Chairman panics and sacks the manager. Graham was a great manager for them plus the Doc did well to take the up to the top flight. Fenton should have been our manager after Jimmy Seed but was bypassed for Trotter. BTW we should not crow about Millwall being likely to get relegated cos we may well go down as well with Barnsley giving it a real go and our strikers being piss poor.
To be fair 2 of their best managers moved on to better things (Graham to Arsenal, McCarthy to Ireland), indeed if Mick hadn't left for the Ireland job they wouldn't have got relegated in 1995/96...
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
Games V west ham are strictly members only. Charlton games anyone can get a ticket. As for selling out at The Valium, we usually always sell out away to the other London clubs, even the likes of brentford, orient etc. why wouldn't we? It's a local game. Charlton are geographically our closest rivals so there's always going to be a big crowd v you lot. It's never seen as a proper needle match though, like west ham, palace or even Leeds.
Ok so we all know that millwall are the same size as port vale, so what size are we the equivalent of? And don't say the MASSIVES, as we definitely are not in the same league as Barca and Bayern.
Looking at the Millwall managers list is interesting but doesn't show what division the spanners were playing in. If you think about it, winning a third of your games is doing pretty well both for Millwall and Charlton because it means you would be contenders, or at least above average. (It's different for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd.) I always thought Benny Fenton was a good manager but he was given plenty of stick from their fans, as were Macarthy and McGhee but they all had a very good record overall. I suppose it is the old story when you lose four or five games on the spin the Chairman panics and sacks the manager. Graham was a great manager for them plus the Doc did well to take the up to the top flight. Fenton should have been our manager after Jimmy Seed but was bypassed for Trotter. BTW we should not crow about Millwall being likely to get relegated cos we may well go down as well with Barnsley giving it a real go and our strikers being piss poor.
Can't recall McGhee getting much stick until the end of his time here. Tactical decisions & formations all seemed to go awry and then he started to cop it.
Ok so we all know that millwall are the same size as port vale, so what size are we the equivalent of? And don't say the MASSIVES, as we definitely are not in the same league as Barca and Bayern.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
Games V west ham are strictly members only. Charlton games anyone can get a ticket. As for selling out at The Valium, we usually always sell out away to the other London clubs, even the likes of brentford, orient etc. why wouldn't we? It's a local game. Charlton are geographically our closest rivals so there's always going to be a big crowd v you lot. It's never seen as a proper needle match though, like west ham, palace or even Leeds.
i think you're stuck with us MF. West Ham and leeds are not interested in you and Palace seem to have something going on with Brighton.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
The atmosphere was crap because the football is dire and Charlton games are always relatively tame. I wouldn't say any have been particularly intimidating.
You know more about Millwall than most on here, so the comment about the West Ham rivalry is a little silly coming from you Richard.
It is an interesting debate which we have had before.
I understand there is a 'rivalry' between you and West Ham. My point it has little to do football but historical disputes in the London Docks or football hooliganism .Apparently you have only been in the same Division of the football league as the happy Hammers 12 times in approximately the last 100 years, you have shared a division with the O's approximately 50% of the time.
I don't know how old you are but often I think who are your main rivals are depends on when first went to football.
I started going to Charlton in the 70's when living in what could be described as the Sel Kent region. I'm sure many of those who came through after me during the Selhurst Park years would start to see Palace as a bigger rival.
I remember at school there being rivalry between myself and Millwall fans more than either of us had with the happy Hammers because they were in the division above until 1978 . You played them for one season and then went down, we followed a year later .
I do not recall the Docks dispute being spoken about then and there was a rivalry between the hooligan elements of Millwall and West Ham which increased after the supporter died in 1976 . Interestingly Millwall still choose West Ham as the opponents for Billy Neill's Testimonial in 1975 ,3 years after the infamous Harry Cripps match which many refer back to as the start of the modern era of the rivalry.
My mate who supports you is about 10 years older than me claims that in the 60's his Millwall supporting Uncle went to support West Ham in the 1965 Cup Winners Cup Final at Wembley. He tells me that in 1966 when England won the World Cup that you were as proud of the holy trinity as all other England supporters.He views Palace as your main rival mainly because they came through the lower Divisions with you in the 60's.
Most Hammers fans I have known see Spurs as a bigger football rival than Millwall , you only come on to their radar when they are relegated. I'm sure members of the ICF might or the traditional East End families whose grandfather was in the Docks might view it differently .
The modern rivalry is about matters off the pitch.
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
Games V west ham are strictly members only. Charlton games anyone can get a ticket. As for selling out at The Valium, we usually always sell out away to the other London clubs, even the likes of brentford, orient etc. why wouldn't we? It's a local game. Charlton are geographically our closest rivals so there's always going to be a big crowd v you lot. It's never seen as a proper needle match though, like west ham, palace or even Leeds.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
Games V west ham are strictly members only. Charlton games anyone can get a ticket. As for selling out at The Valium, we usually always sell out away to the other London clubs, even the likes of brentford, orient etc. why wouldn't we? It's a local game. Charlton are geographically our closest rivals so there's always going to be a big crowd v you lot. It's never seen as a proper needle match though, like west ham, palace or even Leeds.
Finally....A Millwall fan who admits we're rivals
A little known fact is that our closet geographical rivals as the Crow flies are West Ham . There used to be a point at Pontoon Dock DLR Station where you could see both stadiums.Office developments now obscure Upton Park.
Unlike most Charlton fans, I'm not too bothered if our dislike for other teams is reciprocated or not, but to say west ham don't care about Millwall is a bit silly. Time and time again we get voted as their most hated in those rivalry polls, there's numerous footage of them singing anti Millwall songs on YouTube, (we never sing about charlton unless we're playing you) and anyone who saw how they reacted to beating us in the league cup a few years ago, well, of course they care. Personally, I hate palace more than west ham. Only just. There's a hatred for west ham, but a grudging respect too. Palace, I have zero respect for. Smug, stripey plastic ****s! Can't stand em. Anyway, turned into a decent read this thread.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
The atmosphere was crap because the football is dire and Charlton games are always relatively tame. I wouldn't say any have been particularly intimidating.
You know more about Millwall than most on here, so the comment about the West Ham rivalry is a little silly coming from you Richard.
It is an interesting debate which we have had before.
I understand there is a 'rivalry' between you and West Ham. My point it has little to do football but historical disputes in the London Docks or football hooliganism .Apparently you have only been in the same Division of the football league as the happy Hammers 12 times in approximately the last 100 years, you have shared a division with the O's approximately 50% of the time.
I don't know how old you are but often I think who are your main rivals are depends on when first went to football.
I started going to Charlton in the 70's when living in what could be described as the Sel Kent region. I'm sure many of those who came through after me during the Selhurst Park years would start to see Palace as a bigger rival.
I remember at school there being rivalry between myself and Millwall fans more than either of us had with the happy Hammers because they were in the division above until 1978 . You played them for one season and then went down, we followed a year later .
I do not recall the Docks dispute being spoken about then and there was a rivalry between the hooligan elements of Millwall and West Ham which increased after the supporter died in 1976 . Interestingly Millwall still choose West Ham as the opponents for Billy Neill's Testimonial in 1975 ,3 years after the infamous Harry Cripps match which many refer back to as the start of the modern era of the rivalry.
My mate who supports you is about 10 years older than me claims that in the 60's his Millwall supporting Uncle went to support West Ham in the 1965 Cup Winners Cup Final at Wembley. He tells me that in 1966 when England won the World Cup that you were as proud of the holy trinity as all other England supporters.He views Palace as your main rival mainly because they came through the lower Divisions with you in the 60's.
Most Hammers fans I have known see Spurs as a bigger football rival than Millwall , you only come on to their radar when they are relegated. I'm sure members of the ICF might or the traditional East End families whose grandfather was in the Docks might view it differently .
The modern rivalry is about matters off the pitch.
In your opinion, based on what you've experienced. From people in my family, Millwall fans I know and the West Ham fans I know, they'd all disagree with the above.
One thing is true, is the rivalry isn't solely football, we're much smaller than them, it's not a rivalry based on who has won what.
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
It's a local rivalry. It's not just about football is it. It's area v area.
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
It's a local rivalry. It's not just about football is it. It's area v area.
I live in Dagenham and know lots and lots of West Ham fans. I don't know any Millwall. Hardly any local rivalry this side of the water.
They hate you don't get me wrong but if hooligans never happened there wouldn't be hatred today. Spurs seems to be the rivalry nowadays but i suppose thats what happens when you spend decades in different leagues.
If you were to establish yourselves in the PL for a few years or West Ham have a few years in the same division i think you would become the main rivals. The games just don't happen enough.
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
It's a local rivalry. It's not just about football is it. It's area v area.
What area does Millwall represent then ?
If it is South London then both ourselves and Palace have played against the happy Hammers more. Or is it the old East End Docks from where both clubs originated ?
I lived just off Green Street this past year and the locals are far more geared towards hating Spurs. Millwall don't really come into it unless they get drawn in the cup. I think the matches between the two get so stirred up by the media that it creates the kind of situation where fans are almost expected to cause trouble. Outside of that though Hammers fans don't really seem to give them much thought (and I don't mean that in the Crystal Palace 'we don't consider you rivals because we don't even think about you...here's 14 articles written today proving we don't think about you' way)
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
It's a local rivalry. It's not just about football is it. It's area v area.
What area does Millwall represent then ?
If it is South London then both ourselves and Palace have played against the happy Hammers more. Or is it the old East End Docks from where both clubs originated ?
What part of the rivalry is about football?
I just said it's not all about football. I've been to enough Milwall v West Ham games to know there is enough hatred on both sides. I know enough West Ham fans who hate us.
It doesn't particularly matter whether you think that way or not. The few games we have show the fierceness of the rivalry and hopefully that continues, whether we only play once every decade or not.
West Ham fans i know are far more interested in spurs. Fast becoming a one way rivalry. Its obvious Millwall hate West Ham more than anyone but West Ham are a miles bigger club and are on a different level in every way apart from a few hooligans who still live in the past.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
It's a local rivalry. It's not just about football is it. It's area v area.
What area does Millwall represent then ?
If it is South London then both ourselves and Palace have played against the happy Hammers more. Or is it the old East End Docks from where both clubs originated ?
What part of the rivalry is about football?
I just said it's not all about football. I've been to enough Milwall v West Ham games to know there is enough hatred on both sides. I know enough West Ham fans who hate us.
It doesn't particularly matter whether you think that way or not. The few games we have show the fierceness of the rivalry and hopefully that continues, whether we only play once every decade or not.
The crowd at the Toolbox the other Saturday was the quietest I have heard for a long time. If they really believed that it would condemn us then why didn't they create the intimidating atmosphere which is normally there when we visit them ?
It is a fact that Millwall's highest crowds over the past 5 years are against Charlton yet when we play the Spanners at the Valley despite the away end being full the crowd would be approximately only around our average figure.
Despite this there is an insistence that we are not as big rivals as West Ham , a club that the Lions play competitively on average once every 10 years. In my opinion that rivalry is about delusions of grandeur or it is not about football but groups of hooligans or historical dockers disputes.
In terms of a football rivalry Millwall have played Orient far more times than West Ham, so given the fact that the Spanners are really an East London club maybe the O's are their natural rivals.
Games V west ham are strictly members only. Charlton games anyone can get a ticket. As for selling out at The Valium, we usually always sell out away to the other London clubs, even the likes of brentford, orient etc. why wouldn't we? It's a local game. Charlton are geographically our closest rivals so there's always going to be a big crowd v you lot. It's never seen as a proper needle match though, like west ham, palace or even Leeds.
Finally....A Millwall fan who admits we're rivals
I've never said we wasn't rivals. You can't have grounds just over 3 miles apart and not be rivals. It's just seen as a particularly special rivalry by most of our fans. And you lot certainly have a lot more hatred for us than we do for you. Miles more.
Comments
Three out of the current four will drop but I see that four as being very fluid at the moment.
BTW we should not crow about Millwall being likely to get relegated cos we may well go down as well with Barnsley giving it a real go and our strikers being piss poor.
i think you're stuck with us MF. West Ham and leeds are not interested in you and Palace seem to have something going on with Brighton.
It is an interesting debate which we have had before.
I understand there is a 'rivalry' between you and West Ham. My point it has little to do football but historical disputes in the London Docks or football hooliganism .Apparently you have only been in the same Division of the football league as the happy Hammers 12 times in approximately the last 100 years, you have shared a division with the O's approximately 50% of the time.
I don't know how old you are but often I think who are your main rivals are depends on when first went to football.
I started going to Charlton in the 70's when living in what could be described as the Sel Kent region. I'm sure many of those who came through after me during the Selhurst Park years would start to see Palace as a bigger rival.
I remember at school there being rivalry between myself and Millwall fans more than either of us had with the happy Hammers because they were in the division above until 1978 . You played them for one season and then went down, we followed a year later .
I do not recall the Docks dispute being spoken about then and there was a rivalry between the hooligan elements of Millwall and West Ham which increased after the supporter died in 1976 . Interestingly Millwall still choose West Ham as the opponents for Billy Neill's Testimonial in 1975 ,3 years after the infamous Harry Cripps match which many refer back to as the start of the modern era of the rivalry.
My mate who supports you is about 10 years older than me claims that in the 60's his Millwall supporting Uncle went to support West Ham in the 1965 Cup Winners Cup Final at Wembley. He tells me that in 1966 when England won the World Cup that you were as proud of the holy trinity as all other England supporters.He views Palace as your main rival mainly because they came through the lower Divisions with you in the 60's.
Most Hammers fans I have known see Spurs as a bigger football rival than Millwall , you only come on to their radar when they are relegated. I'm sure members of the ICF might or the traditional East End families whose grandfather was in the Docks might view it differently .
The modern rivalry is about matters off the pitch.
Don't think you can call it a rivalry its more just hatred when the clubs are so different in size, history, fan base and league status.
The Valley to Upton Park as the crow flies. 3.2 miles
The Valley to The Olympic Stadium as the crow flies 4.3 miles
Personally, I hate palace more than west ham. Only just. There's a hatred for west ham, but a grudging respect too. Palace, I have zero respect for. Smug, stripey plastic ****s! Can't stand em. Anyway, turned into a decent read this thread.
http://thechriswhitingshow.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/2012-football-rivalry-census-results/
One thing is true, is the rivalry isn't solely football, we're much smaller than them, it's not a rivalry based on who has won what.
They hate you don't get me wrong but if hooligans never happened there wouldn't be hatred today. Spurs seems to be the rivalry nowadays but i suppose thats what happens when you spend decades in different leagues.
If you were to establish yourselves in the PL for a few years or West Ham have a few years in the same division i think you would become the main rivals. The games just don't happen enough.
What area does Millwall represent then ?
If it is South London then both ourselves and Palace have played against the happy Hammers more. Or is it the old East End Docks from where both clubs originated ?
What part of the rivalry is about football?
It doesn't particularly matter whether you think that way or not. The few games we have show the fierceness of the rivalry and hopefully that continues, whether we only play once every decade or not.
I've never said we wasn't rivals. You can't have grounds just over 3 miles apart and not be rivals. It's just seen as a particularly special rivalry by most of our fans. And you lot certainly have a lot more hatred for us than we do for you. Miles more.