I wonder how long it will take for someone who has been fined to appeal on the grounds that "It's my human right to go where I like, when I like, and take my family with me"??
Also a child's right to an education, which the parent is blocking by taking them out of school....you could argue.
what about kids who are home schooled. who do they get permission from? will they be fined?
Probably not and it may be seen as one of the benefits of home schooling - everyone should do it !
Another tax on the poor. If you struggle to pay your bills, have both parents working and as a result it becomes more difficult to get your kids to school every day do the govt offer more support? No. "Fines for the Chavs".
In the past the schools have simply been making their own decisions on when it is ok for children to take time out of school and when is not and there hasn't to my knowledge been any big problems. It only becomes an issue when the government comes in trying to make one rule fit all, without the trust in the intelligence of teachers to make the right decisions.
Well said Suzisausage. Our family had many summer holidays camping abroad at reasonable rates. If you allow one family authorised leave for a week there would be a queue outside the Head's door non stop. How would the class teacher cope with that situation .
Clearly there wouldn't be, as not every parent would agree with taking their kids out of school, people like yourself & Suzi would wait until the summer.
Perhaps there are also other kids who are struggling at school that also can't take a week or two off. There should be common sense applied and not just a blanket ban.
I don't think you realise what a slippery slope this is.
You turn up at school to ask permission to take your child on holiday during term time so you can save £2,000 (see above). Your child's friend's parents have just been given approval, but you are refused because your kid is "struggling" (your term). Not good. Terrible for the child and an appalling dilemma for the teacher who had to make the choice, knowing you'll want to contest the decision.
Or try this. Your kid arrives back at school after summer holidays to find that they are in a "lower stream" than their friends. You ring the school to ask why and they explain that only kids with parents who don't agree with taking them out of school are in the 'A' stream because they don't want the teaching of those committed students disrupted. How would you react?
Slipperly slope? Had it not been this way for years? I wasn't put in to a lower stream for taking a week off, nor was I put up streams if I didn't go on holiday.
As a parent, if your child is struggling, they shouldn't be requesting to take them out of school should they. Why is it terrible for a child? Blimey, I knew whether I struggling or not in a topic, that's what teachers marking tells you.
A parent has the overall responsibility for the upbringing of their child. Along with a thousand other choices they make, if they deem the child missing five days of school is fine then so be it.
Would be better fining the parents of fat children as that is physical abuse of a kid. If a child was two stone UNDERweight there would be hell to pay so should be same the other way too.
Why can't common sense be applied? If taking a child out is going to have a detrimental effect - you can't and if it could be beneficial you can. If a child has the right attitude to work - reward them with potential privileges- this being one of them. That is the way it works when you leave school - If you work hard you get a better job/get promoted/get more money etc... If a kid has a poor attitude to learning through the term let them and their parents know that they are wasting their time asking for any privileges and for those who put the work in and try to learn - let them know that they have earned the right to a favourable response - if they want to ask the question.
when the school stops adding an inset day (baker days for some of you) at the start of a new term, when the teachers have just had 6 weeks off then I wont take them away during school time.
you should listen to you lot - you wanted kids so deal with it ;-)
In all seriousness if you work for a small company or in a small department and most of your colleagues have kids it's impossible for you all to be off work at the same time, or during the summer weeks, so surely something has to give somewhere especially if you figure in all the partners involved and their work situation as well.
Schools should be flexible and take all circumstances into account when deciding. For example, we are going away with Golfie and our holiday starts five days before term ends meaning his kids (all under ten) will miss the last three days of the summer term. what harm will it do them missing the last three days of the school year? all we used to do then in my day was play board games etc. If the school says no then they will have to follow us down to Cornwall three days later.
Funny too that schools don't ask parents for permission when they slot in baker days, ok for kids to miss school then ain't it.
Inset days are used for training, planning the term with your assistant/ job sharing teacher and making sure everything in class is in place. Most teachers are still winding down the classroom when the holidays start and gearing up for the commencement of term about a week before.
I requested to take mine out for a week to go to a wedding in Dominican the second week was half time. Did the proper thing sent the letter in explaining it was a close family members wedding etc and got told no. I said tough I've paid it there going next time I will phone up saying there ill. My children never have time off when some kids are always missing days here and there. What about when a child has say chicken pox and takes a week off I know this can't be odds but the school never moan how dissruptive that can be
Personally i think it is ridiculous. Nothing will convince me that what a 6-10yr old covers in school during one week can't be easily caught up / done in advance.
Quality family time is in my opinion more essential than a week at school.
Exactly right AFKA . Proper family time is a must , weekends are usually busy with kids parties , clubs etc and when you get home from work it's usually bath and bed . Holidays are where you will spend decent time with your kids , if that means taking them out of school for a day or a week because it's that much cheaper then so be it .
Don't think proper family time is the argument given that there are twelve weeks a year when you can have proper family time already.
Whilst I believe there should be some lattitude in the right circumstances, imagine the chaos if every childs parent decided during the term to take their kids out.
Also, in this world where idiot politicians have prescribed what and when things are taught, a week is a long time to miss and said politicians judge schools performance on absences.
Personally i think it is ridiculous. Nothing will convince me that what a 6-10yr old covers in school during one week can't be easily caught up / done in advance.
Quality family time is in my opinion more essential than a week at school.
Exactly right AFKA . Proper family time is a must , weekends are usually busy with kids parties , clubs etc and when you get home from work it's usually bath and bed . Holidays are where you will spend decent time with your kids , if that means taking them out of school for a day or a week because it's that much cheaper then so be it .
Don't think proper family time is the argument given that there are twelve weeks a year when you can have proper family time already.
Whilst I believe there should be some lattitude in the right circumstances, imagine the chaos if every childs parent decided during the term to take their kids out.
Also, in this world where idiot politicians have prescribed what and when things are taught, a week is a long time to miss and said politicians judge schools performance on absences.
Should not be going to court though.
12 weeks!!?? You've got a decent holiday allowance!
I requested to take mine out for a week to go to a wedding in Dominican the second week was half time. Did the proper thing sent the letter in explaining it was a close family members wedding etc and got told no. I said tough I've paid it there going next time I will phone up saying there ill. My children never have time off when some kids are always missing days here and there. What about when a child has say chicken pox and takes a week off I know this can't be odds but the school never moan how dissruptive that can be
Why did you request to take them out knowing you were going regardless of the answer?
Should you fine a kid's family for missing some school if:
The school was notified in advance? It was a visit abroad to see aged family members (i.e. not a holiday) ? The school had been bottom of your list of six and you were forced to go there? All PE staff do is give the kids a rugby/basket/foot ball and tell the kids to get on with it, no coaching or drills, and then as soon as the kids start to play they all dive in their I Phones? The History teacher gives out worksheets and dives on the I phone as soon as that is done? Then gives colouring in homework of Henry 8ths face? Geography is an unremitting diet of films with approximately a third of a page of writing set per week? The English teacher has frequent absences, then pads out the work by outside visitors and library stuff? Drama is taught by a Dance teacher and is whole class discussion or frozen pictures...nothing else? The maths teacher is good?
OK. All of the above circumstances are true? Should the head of that school call in a £1000 fine if the kid not in an exam year missed a couple of weeks, wrapped around half term, to go to an exotic country far away to see relatives while the chance is there?
when the school stops adding an inset day (baker days for some of you) at the start of a new term, when the teachers have just had 6 weeks off then I wont take them away during school time.
you should listen to you lot - you wanted kids so deal with it ;-)
In all seriousness if you work for a small company or in a small department and most of your colleagues have kids it's impossible for you all to be off work at the same time, or during the summer weeks, so surely something has to give somewhere especially if you figure in all the partners involved and their work situation as well.
Schools should be flexible and take all circumstances into account when deciding. For example, we are going away with Golfie and our holiday starts five days before term ends meaning his kids (all under ten) will miss the last three days of the summer term. what harm will it do them missing the last three days of the school year? all we used to do then in my day was play board games etc. If the school says no then they will have to follow us down to Cornwall three days later.
Funny too that schools don't ask parents for permission when they slot in baker days, ok for kids to miss school then ain't it.
Inset days are used for training, planning the term with your assistant/ job sharing teacher and making sure everything in class is in place. Most teachers are still winding down the classroom when the holidays start and gearing up for the commencement of term about a week before.
Yeah yeah we get that but when they've just had 6 weeks off or two weeks off why can't they do the bloody training on the Friday before school starts.
Compromise. Allow ( say) two weeks in any four year period would seem a reasonable way forward.
Say child is unwell for a couple of days seems to be the usual ploy. Teachers openly saying have a nice holiday when they are picked up early to catch a flight.
The savings are considerable, build the fines into the cost, which is fine if you can afford it.
I think it would also be appropriate for the schools to get the benefit of the fines and not just be another tax - which is what I think itis all about really.
I am a parent of 2 boys under the age of 10. I wouldn't consider taking my kids out of school during the term times but can understand why some people do due to financial reasons. My real issue is the fact that the prices are trebled/quadrupled during the school holidays and therefore give some parents that are low earners no other option tham to take there kids out of school. I know some will say that if you can't afford it then you shouldn't take a holiday regardless of going abroad or staying in the UK. Surely there are a lot of benefits to families spending quality time together away from their own homes. I understand the holiday companies saying supply and demand but it does sometimes feel that parents are subsidising the holidays of those people that don't have children.
I wonder how long it will take for someone who has been fined to appeal on the grounds that "It's my human right to go where I like, when I like, and take my family with me"??
Also a child's right to an education, which the parent is blocking by taking them out of school....you could argue.
what about kids who are home schooled. who do they get permission from? will they be fined?
That's not the argument though is it? We're talking very specifically here about a school vs. parents.
I think, as with many things these days, that a handful of people behave irresponsibly and a law gets brought in that ends up punishing everyone else and removing any scope for common sense.
Dictatorship state springs to mind. The issue with this case as I understand it is the family had no right of appeal and we have it seems draconian law in place.
The idea of price being dictated by supply and demand is hardly new. Buy yourself a 5 foot tall Norweigen fir tree in May and see how much it costs vs the one you bought in December or tickets for popular events vs crap ones etc etc
@PL54 - I totally agree with the supply/demand thing (tho' I feel the holiday companies do take the pi55), what annoys me is the fact that in my case I have no choice in the 'supply' date and I am basically a captive consumer (this has parallels with the 'how much should clubs charge for tickets' threads)
Of course if we all got 17 weeks paid holiday a year as teachers do, plus various training days oddly always attached to the end of a longer break, could claim not to be able to get to work when there's half inch of snow on the ground and the ability to strike at any and all opportunities, there probably wouldn't be a problem. Of course I realise they've got their marking to do and god forbid they may be assessed on their competence now and again, but I can't he;lp wondering how teachers in general (not specifics) would cope in the rea world outside of academe.
Just before I grab my tin hat and run for cover I would mention I was married to a teacher for more than 25 years so I know wherof I speak.
I understand the holiday companies saying supply and demand but it does sometimes feel that parents are subsidising the holidays of those people that don't have children.
And in a way they are but I don't know how you can feasibly change it.
Spreading prices evenly over the year wouldn't work as it wouldn't significantly change demand patterns - most of those without kids would still choose to take holidays outside school holidays and will just shop around for lower prices driving the same seasonal pricing pattern as we currently see.
One could argue for government regulation to ensure an even pricing spread but, in the unlikely event that they deemed it necessary to intervene, I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry.
The one argument that 'grinds my gears' is the notion that holiday firms are 'profiteering' from higher school holiday prices - they're (in the main) not making extortionate profits overall but the higher prices in holiday time cover a lot of the costs for the whole year bringing profits to a reasonable level.
But I would acknowledge that family holidays, in this way, are subsidising the non-kid holiday makers who choose to go outside of peak time but I can't see any model that will change that - just enjoy the benefit when you're older :-)
Pre-exams, I can see why schools would be unhappy with families taking children out from school. For example, around Easter time when teachers are helping children with revision. Especially for periods longer than a week.
Post-exams, there's no real reason why they should be upset, just send the kid with some school work and tell the parents to help him do it.
any teacher that strikes should pay each parent £10 per child in their class that misses school that day, why don't you strike during the school holidays when your " Marking papers and planning classes"
how any teacher can moan that a child has missed a week or two school per year is nonsense
I haven't read all posts so forgive me if any of this has been said. As a parent of 4 children and having worked with the school, I can sort of see both sides. I don't think taking children out of school is ever a good idea, however the price differences for holidays can sometimes make it more tempting. It used to be that the head teacher used their own discretion when granting permission for holidays, a child with a good overall attendance record was more likely to be granted permission than the opposite, the schools as a wholes attendance record also played a part in their decision making as they couldn't fall below government standards. Because the decision laid solely with one person without set boundaries it caused problems, such as parents kicking off, accusations of unfairness etc. So I understand why the education authority have taken away that right from the heads. As far as the fines are concerned I don't agree entirely not all parents shouldn't be so heavily penalised for wanting to take their children on holiday, each situation should be considered on an individual basis. Parents shouldn't be allowed to take their children out of school whenever they want, children only get one education and it is our job as parents to ensure that it is the best they can get, some parents will not do what's in the best interest of the children they deserve to be fined, a family that chooses to take their kids on a once in a lifetime holiday and miss school for a week with otherwise good attendance should not be fined. The holiday companies are bound to charge more for school holidays than term-time, if they didn't school holiday breaks would be over subscribed also they are busier need more staff to cover etc, it should cost more, not double but a fair bit more. For those parents that think they can't afford to go away in school holidays, it's just a matter of waiting for the right deals/offers and taking advantage of then. I am going to butlins for the week Friday-Friday, first week of summer holidays, I have done this every year for a while now. Family of 6, silver room, minehead, half board with premium dining (standard dining is horrible) £1274. In October term time it would have cost more. I book by going in or calling the holiday booking shop directly they give you the best price they can using every offer they can and then give their price guarantee so if it is beaten for the same break you get refunded. I know this isn't for everyone but it suits me fine. My neighbour has a huge family and goes abroad every year she saves up travel vouchers all year and sets a budget she then books a last minute package holiday a couple of days before they go, they always have a good time, last year was Majorca the year before was turkey.
As a parent and working at a company where many people have kids (and we cant all be away at the same time) I agree with many of the views on here regarding using your common sense and showing some flexibility. In my case, we have taken him out for 2 days in a row but no more. The school told me that was fine as long as we ask, a week would be a different matter. That still enabled me to get cheaper flights. Also as we tend to go to the USA a lot, it enables us to get a decent break in half term for instance, when more of my team are at work, but going long haul for 1 week may not be worthwhile (especially if it costs a fortune).
We were in LA end of October - by taking him out of school on the Thurs and Fri we got a 10 day hol (he had a baker day on the Mon) and the flights were about £300 cheaper.
I intend to continue taking my kids out of school a couple of days early if the holiday cost differential is meaningful enough to justify it (which it usually is). They're still only primary school age so maybe my view will change at secondary school.
My kids typically spend 2-3 days per term at home sick and it doesn't seem to impact upon their development, so I'm not sure I understand the difference.
With the money saved, one could buy several hours of private tutoring to make up the difference (which of course would be more than enough), and still be financially better off.
As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help.""
Just for a bit of research, tapped onto Thomson's website and picked one of their standard Spain family hotels for a 2 week break for 2 adults and 2 three-year olds. Same break, same flights, one in school holiday, one in term time
Sat 14th June - Total cost £2993 HB, £3721 AI Sat 9th Aug - Total cost £5063 HB, £5791 AI
That's not some exotic 5* location in the Maldives, just a bog standard family Protur hotel in Spain. Aside from the disgusting prices, you can see why people do it because they simply can't afford the equivalent term time breaks.
Of course you've the option of no holiday or doing something cheaper in this country, but there are a multiple of reasons why families benefit from these type of holidays at some stage.
Something's got to give.
on those figures, your children could hop the wag, you pay the fine (grin and bear it) and you still save money .. one other point .. children will probably learn more about life from time spent abroad than they would from sitting in a cramped & boring schoolroom .. AND (2 other points !) the children belong to you, not the local EA, it should be up to you to decide their priorities in life until they are able to decide for themselves
Comments
As a parent, if your child is struggling, they shouldn't be requesting to take them out of school should they. Why is it terrible for a child? Blimey, I knew whether I struggling or not in a topic, that's what teachers marking tells you.
Would be better fining the parents of fat children as that is physical abuse of a kid. If a child was two stone UNDERweight there would be hell to pay so should be same the other way too.
Whilst I believe there should be some lattitude in the right circumstances, imagine the chaos if every childs parent decided during the term to take their kids out.
Also, in this world where idiot politicians have prescribed what and when things are taught, a week is a long time to miss and said politicians judge schools performance on absences.
Should not be going to court though.
Should you fine a kid's family for missing some school if:
The school was notified in advance?
It was a visit abroad to see aged family members (i.e. not a holiday) ?
The school had been bottom of your list of six and you were forced to go there?
All PE staff do is give the kids a rugby/basket/foot ball and tell the kids to get on with it, no coaching or drills, and then as soon as the kids start to play they all dive in their I Phones?
The History teacher gives out worksheets and dives on the I phone as soon as that is done? Then gives colouring in homework of Henry 8ths face?
Geography is an unremitting diet of films with approximately a third of a page of writing set per week?
The English teacher has frequent absences, then pads out the work by outside visitors and library stuff?
Drama is taught by a Dance teacher and is whole class discussion or frozen pictures...nothing else?
The maths teacher is good?
OK. All of the above circumstances are true?
Should the head of that school call in a £1000 fine if the kid not in an exam year missed a couple of weeks, wrapped around half term, to go to an exotic country far away to see relatives while the chance is there?
Yeah yeah we get that but when they've just had 6 weeks off or two weeks off why can't they do the bloody training on the Friday before school starts.
Not rocket science is it.
Say child is unwell for a couple of days seems to be the usual ploy. Teachers openly saying have a nice holiday when they are picked up early to catch a flight.
The savings are considerable, build the fines into the cost, which is fine if you can afford it.
I think it would also be appropriate for the schools to get the benefit of the fines and not just be another tax - which is what I think itis all about really.
Just before I grab my tin hat and run for cover I would mention I was married to a teacher for more than 25 years so I know wherof I speak.
Grabs tin hat anyway:)
Spreading prices evenly over the year wouldn't work as it wouldn't significantly change demand patterns - most of those without kids would still choose to take holidays outside school holidays and will just shop around for lower prices driving the same seasonal pricing pattern as we currently see.
One could argue for government regulation to ensure an even pricing spread but, in the unlikely event that they deemed it necessary to intervene, I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry.
The one argument that 'grinds my gears' is the notion that holiday firms are 'profiteering' from higher school holiday prices - they're (in the main) not making extortionate profits overall but the higher prices in holiday time cover a lot of the costs for the whole year bringing profits to a reasonable level.
But I would acknowledge that family holidays, in this way, are subsidising the non-kid holiday makers who choose to go outside of peak time but I can't see any model that will change that - just enjoy the benefit when you're older :-)
Post-exams, there's no real reason why they should be upset, just send the kid with some school work and tell the parents to help him do it.
how any teacher can moan that a child has missed a week or two school per year is nonsense
refunded. I know this isn't for everyone but it suits me fine. My neighbour has a huge family and goes abroad every year she saves up travel vouchers all year and sets a budget she then books a last minute package holiday a couple of days before they go, they always have a good time, last year was Majorca the year before was turkey.
We were in LA end of October - by taking him out of school on the Thurs and Fri we got a 10 day hol (he had a baker day on the Mon) and the flights were about £300 cheaper.
My kids typically spend 2-3 days per term at home sick and it doesn't seem to impact upon their development, so I'm not sure I understand the difference.
With the money saved, one could buy several hours of private tutoring to make up the difference (which of course would be more than enough), and still be financially better off.
As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help.""
on those figures, your children could hop the wag, you pay the fine (grin and bear it) and you still save money .. one other point .. children will probably learn more about life from time spent abroad than they would from sitting in a cramped & boring schoolroom .. AND (2 other points !) the children belong to you, not the local EA, it should be up to you to decide their priorities in life until they are able to decide for themselves